I disagree with some Catholic teachings... How do I deal with this?

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iuchewie, I have to say that my personal experience apart from the church has been a chaotic journey through a mulitpilcity of “free thinking” churches.

I find that when someone claims that there is no mediator to God but Christ and subsequently places themselves as an unofficial mediator is chaos and not independence.

I find that we all have the independent right to personal interpretation and then subsequently denying the right of others to the same privilege while claiming to be correct by way of being led by the holy spirit as every other “free thinking” person, denomination, church claims is chaos and definitely not the independence that I desire. I have experienced hardly anything but self interested interpretation. We must change the man according to the word, not the word according to the man.

There is something beautiful, dignifying, and ultimately wonderful when speaking of the historically and spiritual home of christians on this earth. You are talking about the historical home of christians.

Just a question, if a relative dies and indicates that specific people as beneficiaries and names a arbiter in a legal, moral, and responsible manner can someone unrelated and unamed simply claim the right and apply his own name on the list, and recieve the benefits as well as the authority?

Just a couple thoughts.
 
Chewie,
When I first returned to the Church, I too had all these same questions and took issue with MANY Church teachings. I can remember, early on in my re-version, praying to the HS to please just leave me be with my preconceived notions! I didn’t want my life too terribly upset by my conversion!

For me, the key was prayer. Those things which tripped me up were the issues I prayed the most intensely about and I made it a focus of my conversion to study everything I could about the “WHY’S” of Church teaching. To my great surprise, there actually was an ANSWER for every single question I had - and they were great answers based in logic, reason, and yes, faith.

To use your examples (which I know you said were poor), the Church teaching on fasting and sacrifice not only makes sense but elevates the soul to spiritual levels that can not be reached in any other way. You may doubt that right now, and consider something as banal as abstaining from meat on Friday just plain silly, but when you are hankering for a big fat rib eye steak on the BBQ and you MUST set your love for steak aside for the love of the Savior, you find yourself reaping the benefits of grace. Suddenly, understanding about all kinds of things begins to tumble forth. Every religion understands the value of fasting. It is not just the “crazy Catholics.”😉

Pre-marital sex is probably even easier to understand and explain with reason and logic IF we separate our personal feelings and experiences from the process of educating ourselves. Everyone here knows someone who is living in obvious sin. Everyone here knows “good people” who do not live according to Catholic teaching. If we are seeking merely a pedestrian and material vision of “goodness”, then I suppose these alleged “minor” sins can be overlooked or rationalized away. But what we seek is a supernatural goodness - the kind that lifts our hearts and souls and unites us with God’s will. Just being a “good” person might not cut it because what definition are we using to define this amorphous aspiration? The Church defines for us God’s will, His expectations, His blueprint for our lives. Pre-marital sex is so destructive to the person, to society, to children, to marriage, and to our relationship with God, that the Church’s position on this issue really does make the most sense. And while you may not see this destruction or negative effect in the lives of your family members or friends, that does not discount the objective truth of the issue. We, as finite beings, do not have the benefit of foreseeing into eternity, as God most certainly does. For every action, there is a reaction. While your observation of others may not currently show the strain of sinful behavior, there is simply no way for us to know what effect these choices will have in the future.

Finally, those loved ones of ours who persist in living apart from the Church and Her teachings are not “bad” people. They may not even be in mortal sin IF they are so ill informed and poorly educated in their faith that they can not give a fully informed consent. No matter. The important things is for you to ask God to help you understand. When you are convicted in the truth, others will follow. Your light will attract them all on it’s own.

God bless!
 
 
I have this problem as well. As i have said before i am very drawn to the catholic faith. I have started saying the rosary its so beautiful its not just all mary mary as some fundementalists believe. Its all about christs life with mary interceding for us. I also have problems with the subject on contraception. Also i remember a lapsed catholic saying to me that her nephew went to mass every week although he had been out partying the night before but thinks thsts ok because it doesnt matter how he behaves as long as he goes to mass . There are lots of issues but i still feel drawn how can i know that how i feel is what the lord wants for me. At the moment i attend a united reformed church my daughter who is 17 and has faith has said that she doesnt think i should convert shr disagrees with purgotary and indulgences. I dont know what to maybe anglo catholic is best for me. Please contiue to pray for me all you catholics out there. Also i dont think my husband would like me to become catholic he doesnt share my faith he comes to church sometimes but only if our children are doing something special at the service.
 
Burdock said:
I have this problem as well. As i have said before i am very drawn to the catholic faith. I have started saying the rosary its so beautiful its not just all mary mary as some fundementalists believe. Its all about christs life with mary interceding for us. I also have problems with the subject on contraception. Also i remember a lapsed catholic saying to me that her nephew went to mass every week although he had been out partying the night before but thinks thsts ok because it doesnt matter how he behaves as long as he goes to mass . There are lots of issues but i still feel drawn how can i know that how i feel is what the lord wants for me. At the moment i attend a united reformed church my daughter who is 17 and has faith has said that she doesnt think i should convert shr disagrees with purgotary and indulgences. I dont know what to maybe anglo catholic is best for me. Please contiue to pray for me all you catholics out there. Also i dont think my husband would like me to become catholic he doesnt share my faith he comes to church sometimes but only if our children are doing something special at the service.
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The Mass is the source and summit of our faith. Assisting at weekly Mass is foundational. Many of us fail during the week, but we keep trying. The Mass keeps us centered on God.

The Lord is standing before you with open arms waiting to take you into His bosom and embrace you. The search for the truth will always logical end there. He is the highest truth and the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church is the one He desires everyone to be a part of. That’s how He set it up.
 
Burdock said:
I have this problem as well. As i have said before i am very drawn to the catholic faith. I have started saying the rosary its so beautiful its not just all mary mary as some fundementalists believe. Its all about christs life with mary interceding for us. I also have problems with the subject on contraception. Also i remember a lapsed catholic saying to me that her nephew went to mass every week although he had been out partying the night before but thinks thsts ok because it doesnt matter how he behaves as long as he goes to mass . There are lots of issues but i still feel drawn how can i know that how i feel is what the lord wants for me. At the moment i attend a united reformed church my daughter who is 17 and has faith has said that she doesnt think i should convert shr disagrees with purgotary and indulgences. I dont know what to maybe anglo catholic is best for me. Please contiue to pray for me all you catholics out there. Also i dont think my husband would like me to become catholic he doesnt share my faith he comes to church sometimes but only if our children are doing something special at the service.
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Definintely praying for you, Burdock!

If you feel the draw, and value the rosary, you’re flowing well toward the place you should be. Let the flow carry you, and don’t try to rush what is being given you.

Please explore why people who were once uncomfortable with purgatory and indulgences but aren’t any longer changed their minds when they found out the truth about those things.

I’m sure you pray for all the best for your daughter, and the more you do the more both you and she will be drawn to the Church (Catholic).

Faith and truth are contagious, and the more we put out, the more we affect those around us.

Best of everything to you and yours! 🙂
 
I also would like to state that there is genuine strength in knowing that a church as in the original christian comunity which has as is said in 1 Timothy 3:15 to be the pillar and bedrock of the faith, to provide the foundation for truth and to provide a bulwork in defense of the ethereal truth. There is great strength in belonging to this church which God has prepared.

There is great strength in knowing that your views of the Bible and christianity at large are not just an outward/inward expression of your own limited intellect and imagination but from a straight path from a he truly divine river of faith, through the historical chair of Peter, and the infallible teachings of the Papacy once again the chair of Peter.

Wy have faith in the teachings? Why not? Are we really in the position to debate the traditinal teachings of christianity? Why should I interject my subjective/emotional perspective on the faith? I see the authority as something genuine and worthy o my trust and full obediance and this is coming from a political libertarian so that means very much to me.

We have subjective and abstract understandings of reality if we are not guided by the truths of God. There can be no humanistic moral truths, it’s always subjective. In the church there is genuine authority appointed by God… that is no small fact.

Outisde the church i was left with myself and my ego, my faith but my also insecurity of truth, my imagination and alone to my own devices, emotional and inellectual limitations. Now I feel a genuine love, reciprocity, and love sometimes so strong I feel like it has replaced the blood in my veins! God is wonderful brother! 👍
 
iuchewie said:
So in order to be faithful I need to “have faith” in all of the church’s teachings? I didn’t realize that it was an all or nothing proposition.

There is absolutely NO DOUBT in my mind that God exists, Jesus is our savior, etc. I have no proof, therefore I believe these things out of faith.

That being said, I have issues with some of the teachings of the church, which while they are divine in their inspiration they are still man-made teachings, rules, laws, etc.

I don’t think it’s a matter of learning or studying more either. There are some things that I understand perfectly and I just simply don’t agree with. I suppose I separate “faith” and “following blindly”.
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One thing that helps me, in my searchings is to firstly seperate God from Religion.

There is God.

And then there is everything that mankind has tried to understand about God, including Jesus. The catholic church is very sophisticated in it’s understanding I’ll grant them that.

But I disagree a great deal with the church on many things. The difference between me, and others as I see it, is that I do not need certainty and I won’t allow another to do the work of this life for me. I have to make up my own mind.(The sin of me doing things without God, is not the same as me me doing things , without a church or a pope…human institutions)

I think the church teaches many good things however, these day’s, all anyone wants is certainty. Athiests and Thiests are remarkebly similiar in this regard. Both Athiests and Thiests will say the following. This is the truth…and if you don’t support it it’s because you dont’ understand.

There is no notion of “I understand, but I don 't agree” to thiests and athiests. The need for certainty does not allow for this. However, I personally support things not out of ignorance or lack of understanding. I often don’t actually agree. 🙂 And I’m okay facing God with this. You must be able to do this too. 🙂

Take Fish on Friday. It was the poor man’s meat back in Jesus day. It was a sacrifice that was made so that we could reduce ourselves to the same common demoninator. We are as poor, or as rich as each other. Why should one person eat lamb, while another wallows in Fish. It’s a sign of equality and highlights the extrodinary inclusiveness of Jesus…no-one is worth more than another so we will all eat the poor mans food.

Funnily enough, I don’t see that when I watch people eating $30 barramundi, or $100 lobster on a Friday. I must be weird.

On Living in Sin…sigh. There is no commitment we make that is more imporant than one of marriage. Any other commitment we make in life, we explore first. We try different careers, part-time jobs as kids, we read different books to find out our interests and we play different sports to see what we like.

But we must commit to the hugest, most difficult commitment of all and NOT ONLY that, we bring little beautiful vulnerable humans into the picture…and we do that without having any idea about who we are really commiting to, or wether or not the individual is right for us.

Let’s just make a commitment…the most important one we can make, with no knowlege at all.

I think the whole no living together or being physical together before marriage is the biggest mistake of the church. You cannot dedicate your life to some-one, unless you know them first. It is irresponsible considering the human lives you will create and the problems that entail when you begin to realize this. Let’s figure it out BEFORE we hurt our children please?

For then poster who indicated that living together first, leads to divorce, you need to back that up with some serious statistics before making the claim, because it appears to be the opposite from what I’ve read. But you’ve made the claim, so back it up please.

To those that claim that sex causes bonding between humans, you are to a degree correct but lets try not to use science to back-up a religious belief without full understanding. Sex bonds a MALE to a female. The bonding chemicals released during sex are very powerful for a male and allow him to bond with a mate. In fact, for a male it is a requirement to bonding. He cannot feel close to his mate, without physical intimacy, hence the reason men will often request intimacy with their mate and feel frustrated without it. They aren’t asking for an ograsm for goodness sake, they want to share themselves and bond with their chosen woman.

For a female, bonding chemicals are released during communication and conversation primarly and only in moderate degrees during sex. We release about 20 times the bonding chemicals during communication than we do during sex.

Men Bond to women through sex, women bond to men through communication.

Ironically enough, a church heirachy that is male dominated, holds the view that bonding of two humans is sacred and occurs during sex.

Funny thing, science ONLY backs that up, for males, not females. And men, have ruled the church hierachy and made decisions about Gods truth for the last 2000years. It is only the truth, for males not females, hence the feminist movement. Finally, our sacred needs were considered viable.

Your instincts are right. Listen to your church as they have 2000 years of amazing history, beautiful and inspring. 2000 years of human observation and intense thought and a love of God so deep that people died for it. But never forget, they are failable and only you have to ultimately answer for you lifes choices. Think them through, listen to others but be honest with yourself.

I think you are very brave to ask these questions 🙂
 
Dameedna said:
One thing that helps me, in my searchings is to firstly seperate God from Religion.

There is God.

And then there is everything that mankind has tried to understand about God, including Jesus. The catholic church is very sophisticated in it’s understanding I’ll grant them that.

But I disagree a great deal with the church on many things. The difference between me, and others as I see it, is that I do not need certainty and I won’t allow another to do the work of this life for me. I have to make up my own mind.(The sin of me doing things without God, is not the same as me me doing things , without a church or a pope…human institutions)

I think the church teaches many good things however, these day’s, all anyone wants is certainty. Athiests and Thiests are remarkebly similiar in this regard. Both Athiests and Thiests will say the following. This is the truth…and if you don’t support it it’s because you dont’ understand.

There is no notion of “I understand, but I don 't agree” to thiests and athiests. The need for certainty does not allow for this. However, I personally support things not out of ignorance or lack of understanding. I often don’t actually agree. 🙂 And I’m okay facing God with this. You must be able to do this too. 🙂

Take Fish on Friday. It was the poor man’s meat back in Jesus day. It was a sacrifice that was made so that we could reduce ourselves to the same common demoninator. We are as poor, or as rich as each other. Why should one person eat lamb, while another wallows in Fish. It’s a sign of equality and highlights the extrodinary inclusiveness of Jesus…no-one is worth more than another so we will all eat the poor mans food.

Funnily enough, I don’t see that when I watch people eating $30 barramundi, or $100 lobster on a Friday. I must be weird.

On Living in Sin…sigh. There is no commitment we make that is more imporant than one of marriage. Any other commitment we make in life, we explore first. We try different careers, part-time jobs as kids, we read different books to find out our interests and we play different sports to see what we like.

But we must commit to the hugest, most difficult commitment of all and NOT ONLY that, we bring little beautiful vulnerable humans into the picture…and we do that without having any idea about who we are really commiting to, or wether or not the individual is right for us.

Let’s just make a commitment…the most important one we can make, with no knowlege at all.

I think the whole no living together or being physical together before marriage is the biggest mistake of the church. You cannot dedicate your life to some-one, unless you know them first. It is irresponsible considering the human lives you will create and the problems that entail when you begin to realize this. Let’s figure it out BEFORE we hurt our children please?

For then poster who indicated that living together first, leads to divorce, you need to back that up with some serious statistics before making the claim, because it appears to be the opposite from what I’ve read. But you’ve made the claim, so back it up please.

To those that claim that sex causes bonding between humans, you are to a degree correct but lets try not to use science to back-up a religious belief without full understanding. Sex bonds a MALE to a female. The bonding chemicals released during sex are very powerful for a male and allow him to bond with a mate. In fact, for a male it is a requirement to bonding. He cannot feel close to his mate, without physical intimacy, hence the reason men will often request intimacy with their mate and feel frustrated without it. They aren’t asking for an ograsm for goodness sake, they want to share themselves and bond with their chosen woman.

For a female, bonding chemicals are released during communication and conversation primarly and only in moderate degrees during sex. We release about 20 times the bonding chemicals during communication than we do during sex.

Men Bond to women through sex, women bond to men through communication.

Ironically enough, a church heirachy that is male dominated, holds the view that bonding of two humans is sacred and occurs during sex.

Funny thing, science ONLY backs that up, for males, not females. And men, have ruled the church hierachy and made decisions about Gods truth for the last 2000years. It is only the truth, for males not females, hence the feminist movement. Finally, our sacred needs were considered viable.

Your instincts are right. Listen to your church as they have 2000 years of amazing history, beautiful and inspring. 2000 years of human observation and intense thought and a love of God so deep that people died for it. But never forget, they are failable and only you have to ultimately answer for you lifes choices. Think them through, listen to others but be honest with yourself.

I think you are very brave to ask these questions 🙂
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Hear hear. Very well said.

In found your statements on Marriage and commitment particularly interesting.
 
sodak said:
When in doubt, I remember, “Not my will, but yours be done”. I figure if that’s good enough for Jesus, it ought to be more than good enough for me.
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The point that Jesus was making, is the status quo, was NOT good enough for him. He challenged it. And he gaves us a certain philosophy in life that we must alway’s adhere to, which…challenges authority again and again.

Are you so sure, it would be good enough for Jesus?
 
One study that you may find interesting was done by Bennett, Blan, and Bloom (American Sociological Review, 1988, Vol 53: 127-138) entitled, “Commitment and the Modern Union: Assessing the Link Between Premarital Cohabitation and Subsequent Marital Stability.”
The point made by the authors is that, overall, the risk of divorce after living together is 80% higher than the risk of divorce after not living together, which is already too high. In other words, those who live together before marriage are almost twice as likely to divorce than those who did not live together. But they also point out that the risk of divorce is even higher if you don’t live together more than three years prior to marriage. The longer you live together prior to marriage, the less the risk of divorce until after 8 years of living together, when the risk of divorce is equal to those who have not lived together.
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Another interesting study was conducted by Hall and Zhao (Cohabitation and Divorce in Canada, Journal of Marriage and the Family, May 1995: 421-427). They write,*The popular belief that cohabitation is an effective strategy in a high-divorce society rests on the common-sense notion that getting to know one another before marrying should improve the quality and stability of marriage. However, in this instance, it is looking more and more as if common sense is a poor guide.*Their study showed that cohabitation itself was shown to account for a higher divorce rate, rather than factors that might have led to cohabitation, such as parental divorce, age at marriage, stepchildren, religion, and other factors. In other words, other factors being equal, you are much more likely to divorce if you live together first.
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DeMaris and MacDonald (Premarital Cohabitation and Marital Instability: A Test of the unconventionality Hypothesis, Journal of Marriage and the Family, May 1993: 399-407), echo Hall and Zhao. They found that the unconventionality of those who live together does not explain their subsequent struggle when married. There is something about living together first that creates marital problems later. They write:*Despite a widespread public faith in premarital cohabitation as a testing ground for marital incompatibility, research to date indicates that cohabitors’ marriages are less satisfactory and more unstable than those of noncohabitors.*Undoubtedly there are some self-selection factors that make people who live together more prone to marital problems later. But the gist of current research is that these factors are not enough to explain the astonishingly huge effect. Simply stated, if you live together before marriage, you will be fighting an uphill battle to save your marriage.
marriagebuilders.com/graphic/mbi5025b_qa.html
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I will argue against the point that men bond through sex and women bond through communication.

While the latter is true, it is something that happens in addition to the bonding through sex and not to the exclusion of it. A study of marriage throughout history proves that the female instinct to bonding during sex is innate and is designed to protect oneself and one’s offspring. A woman is not just seeking a means to procreate when selecting a male partner for sex, but also attempting to secure a provider for herself and her children.
Back up your claim that men are primarily the ones who bond.
 
Dameedna said:
One thing that helps me, in my searchings is to firstly seperate God from Religion.

There is God.

And then there is everything that mankind has tried to understand about God, including Jesus. The catholic church is very sophisticated in it’s understanding I’ll grant them that.

But I disagree a great deal with the church on many things. The difference between me, and others as I see it, is that I do not need certainty and I won’t allow another to do the work of this life for me. I have to make up my own mind.(The sin of me doing things without God, is not the same as me me doing things , without a church or a pope…human institutions)

I think the church teaches many good things however, these day’s, all anyone wants is certainty. Athiests and Thiests are remarkebly similiar in this regard. Both Athiests and Thiests will say the following. This is the truth…and if you don’t support it it’s because you dont’ understand.

There is no notion of “I understand, but I don 't agree” to thiests and athiests. The need for certainty does not allow for this. However, I personally support things not out of ignorance or lack of understanding. I often don’t actually agree. 🙂 And I’m okay facing God with this. You must be able to do this too. 🙂

Take Fish on Friday. It was the poor man’s meat back in Jesus day. It was a sacrifice that was made so that we could reduce ourselves to the same common demoninator. We are as poor, or as rich as each other. Why should one person eat lamb, while another wallows in Fish. It’s a sign of equality and highlights the extrodinary inclusiveness of Jesus…no-one is worth more than another so we will all eat the poor mans food.

Funnily enough, I don’t see that when I watch people eating $30 barramundi, or $100 lobster on a Friday. I must be weird.

On Living in Sin…sigh. There is no commitment we make that is more imporant than one of marriage. Any other commitment we make in life, we explore first. We try different careers, part-time jobs as kids, we read different books to find out our interests and we play different sports to see what we like.

But we must commit to the hugest, most difficult commitment of all and NOT ONLY that, we bring little beautiful vulnerable humans into the picture…and we do that without having any idea about who we are really commiting to, or wether or not the individual is right for us.

Let’s just make a commitment…the most important one we can make, with no knowlege at all.

I think the whole no living together or being physical together before marriage is the biggest mistake of the church. You cannot dedicate your life to some-one, unless you know them first. It is irresponsible considering the human lives you will create and the problems that entail when you begin to realize this. Let’s figure it out BEFORE we hurt our children please?

For then poster who indicated that living together first, leads to divorce, you need to back that up with some serious statistics before making the claim, because it appears to be the opposite from what I’ve read. But you’ve made the claim, so back it up please.

To those that claim that sex causes bonding between humans, you are to a degree correct but lets try not to use science to back-up a religious belief without full understanding. Sex bonds a MALE to a female. The bonding chemicals released during sex are very powerful for a male and allow him to bond with a mate. In fact, for a male it is a requirement to bonding. He cannot feel close to his mate, without physical intimacy, hence the reason men will often request intimacy with their mate and feel frustrated without it. They aren’t asking for an ograsm for goodness sake, they want to share themselves and bond with their chosen woman.

For a female, bonding chemicals are released during communication and conversation primarly and only in moderate degrees during sex. We release about 20 times the bonding chemicals during communication than we do during sex.

Men Bond to women through sex, women bond to men through communication.

Ironically enough, a church heirachy that is male dominated, holds the view that bonding of two humans is sacred and occurs during sex.

Funny thing, science ONLY backs that up, for males, not females. And men, have ruled the church hierachy and made decisions about Gods truth for the last 2000years. It is only the truth, for males not females, hence the feminist movement. Finally, our sacred needs were considered viable.

Your instincts are right. Listen to your church as they have 2000 years of amazing history, beautiful and inspring. 2000 years of human observation and intense thought and a love of God so deep that people died for it. But never forget, they are failable and only you have to ultimately answer for you lifes choices. Think them through, listen to others but be honest with yourself.

I think you are very brave to ask these questions 🙂
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With all due rspect this is horrible advice…
1st mistake: separarting God from religion, you’re in denial of history.

2nd :“I won’t allow another to do the work of this life for me. I have to make up my own mind.”- Isolationist. There are three ways of knowing truth, experience,reason and belief.which by it’s nature depends on others. Do you know about history? Yes,by readig about it. Then you are relying on others ‘do the work for you’.

3rd: “All anyone wants is certainty”- Faith should be certain or else it’s doubt. **“There is no notion of “I understand, but I don 't agree” to thiests and athiests” -**That’s not true, I understand everything your’re saying, but I disagree. Many Catholics have weeded through many worldviews before arriving at the truth. We’re open-minded but once we see the truth and live in it we close our minds around it. Be careful not to be so opened minded that your brains fall out.

4th mistake: **“Funnily enough, I don’t see that when I watch people eating $30 barramundi, or $100 lobster on a Friday. I must be weird.”–**The Truth of a religion should be judged by those who follow it not by those follow their own idea of it. Hypocricy on any level only speaks of the character of the Catholic not of the Validity of the Catholic Faith.

5th: “To those that claim that sex causes bonding between humans, you are to a degree correct but lets try not to use science to back-up a religious belief without full understanding. Sex bonds a MALE to a female. The bonding chemicals released during sex are very powerful for a male and allow him to bond with a mate. In fact, for a male it is a requirement to bonding. He cannot feel close to his mate, without physical intimacy, hence the reason men will often request intimacy with their mate and feel frustrated without it. They aren’t asking for an ograsm for goodness sake, they want to share themselves and bond with their chosen woman.” --Don’t lecture us on science when this statement about bonding is 180 degrees off. It’s the hormonre oxytosin in the female that attaches her to the man.

6th: "On Living in Sin…sigh. There is no commitment we make that is more imporant than one of marriage. Any other commitment we make in life, we explore first. We try different careers, part-time jobs as kids, we read different books to find out our interests and we play different sports to see what we like." Do you realize that you’re comparing the God-given, Sacred Sacrament of Holy Matrimony with books,sports, part-time job. A marriage is not a hobby or a job. It is our participation in the in the very covenant that God has made with us, which is itself marital. It is the foundation for a family. It serves as a rampart for the highest level of love two people can have. It’s not a new Mercedes that you test-drive. (Ichuweeie, Please see this point—Because this country is in so much trouble on the issue of marriage. Why? Because parents chose not to educate their kids, or ‘push religion on their kids’ with regard to this matter and now look where we are!)

7th: **“Let’s just make a commitment…the most important one we can make, with no knowlege at all.”- ** It’s not a commitment, or a contract, it’s a covenant. Again you are 180 degrees off. Withholding sex until Marriage is for the sake of honoring the covenant. For the sake of protecting the covenant. My wife and I waited to be with each other sexually until marriage. We are going on ten years. Happily carrying the cross of Matrimony with four children weighing it down at times. But we’ve never been so happy. I only bring thatb up because I know first hand thatb you dont need to testdrive eachother;s bodies. And waiting a year through our engagement (was not easy) but proved to us that we were more than animals.

8th: The divorce rate for couples that co-habitate is a universally known truth. Just google cohabitate and divorce -rate. Here’s one ,
afany.org/News/News1.html
 
I only bring thatb up because I know first hand thatb you dont need to testdrive eachother;s bodies. And waiting a year through our engagement (was not easy) but proved to us that we were more than animals.
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Yes, I picked this up from the assertion that:
You cannot dedicate your life to some-one, unless you know them first. It is irresponsible considering the human lives you will create and the problems that entail when you begin to realize this. Let’s figure it out BEFORE we hurt our children please?
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You can most certainly dedicate yourself to someone without having premarital sex - which, by it’s very nature, can lead to children out of wedlock, thus FORCING people otherwise unsuited for eachother to marry.

The idea that one must “know” another sexually to discern compatibility is a modern and fallcious theory. How is it that the majority of our parent’s generation (the “greatest generation”) were able to sustain their marriages until death without “test driving eachother’s bodies”? If this assertion is legitimate, it should be possible to back it up with fact. Yet statistics prove that this claim has no validitity, and in fact, can be disproved by the number of failed marriages, out of wedlock births, domestic abuse stats, and on and on.

Dating and courtship, traditionally the way in which one gets to know one’s future partner, is more than sufficient as a way to discern marrriage potential. In fact, it can be argued that clouding the brain and confusing the body with pre-marital sex only complicates the process of really “knowing” another. How often do people claim that past sexual partners were the “love of their lives”, only to disavow such claims after the relationship self destructs.

What you are really asserting is that people need to have sex with one another before marriage to see if they are SEXUALLY compatible. Since you claim no religious affiliation, I assume your belief system is based more on secular theory than religious faith. And secular theory debases the sexual act to nothing more than bodily functions and sexual responses. Catholics and Christians in general tend to believe that the act will be pleasing to both spouses through the convenant of marriage and that even in the face of some incompatibility, the couple can overcome dificulties with the help of the third person in the marriage: God.
 
iuchewie said:
Not sure where I should ask this or if it’s been asked before. If it has I do apologize. If someone could point me in the right direction I’d greatly appreciate it.

So here’s my question.

How do I reconcile the fact that I disagree with some of the teachings/traditions of the church with the fact that I want to lead a good life, be a good Catholic and raise my kids in the proper fashion?
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Been there, done that. I was born Catholic, became atheist and when I returned to the Catholic Church I didn’t believe many of Her Teachings.

What happened? I fell in love with Christ and therefore with His Body, the Church. At that point, I then, as you today, began to study and inquire into the things with which I disagreed. I asked God to let me find the answers and I believe my prayer was answered.

So, I hope that I can be of assistance.
There are numerous examples that I could point to so I’ll just pick one (in no order of importance).
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Great. One or two at a time is much better than all together. That way we can discuss them in detail.
No meat on Fridays during Lent.
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I think this is silly. Perhaps its because I don’t know the full history of it, but I doubt that you could show me a reason that would change my mind on this one. If it’s just a matter of me “showing my faith and showing my respect”
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Its a matter of obedience.
John 15 14 You are my friends, if you do the things that I command you.

The Church is literally the Body of Christ on earth. Therefore, when the Church speaks, Christ speaks. If you disobey the Church, you disobey God.

And obedience to God is very important because disobedience is the reason we are in the mess we are in (i.e. Original Sin).

Romans 5 19 For as by the disobedience of one man, many were made sinners; so also by the obedience of one, many shall be made just.

It is also a matter of discipline:
Hebrews 12
7 Persevere under discipline. God dealeth with you as with his sons; for what son is there, whom the father doth not correct?
8 But if you be without chastisement, whereof all are made partakers, then are you bastards, and not sons. 9 Moreover we have had fathers of our flesh, for instructors, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more obey the Father of spirits, and live? 10 And they indeed for a few days, according to their own pleasure, instructed us: but he, for our profit, that we might receive his sanctification.

Now, Jesus suffered horribly during His Passion and Crucifixion. Is it too much to ask to give up a little meat on Fridays in order to remind yourself of your love for Him and your appreciation for His Sacrifice?
then I’d counter with the fact that I do many other things year round that accomplish the same thing.
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So, you are saying that you are already righteous and therefore don’t need God’s discipline in order to free you of sin:

1 Peter 4
1 Christ therefore having suffered in the flesh, be you also armed with the same thought: for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sins:

But then if you are so righteous, Jesus did not come for you:

Matthew 9
13 Go then and learn what this meaneth, I will have mercy and not sacrifice. For I am not come to call the just, but sinners.
Living in sin.
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I personally never lived with my wife (also a Catholic) prior to getting married (ten years this summer by the way!) but my brother lives with his girlfriend and I’m finding that I have no issue with it.
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That is because your conscience is not rightly formed.

However it is a grave sin of fornication. Why?

Because SEX is so good that God made it to be shared by man and wife. Sex is the icon of the matrimonial ceremony. In the matrimonial ceremony, we make an oath to love God and each other and to be vehicles of that love for God and one another for our children which we promise to give to God.

Do you remember your marriage vows?

When we unite ourselves as man and wife, we accomplish in physical terms what we have sworn to do by words. It is a Catholic doctrine that words alone are empty gongs and cymbals. We back up our words with actions.

And when we unite ourselves in love we become living breathing symbols of the Holy Trinity of Love. We become one with each other as God is one in three Divine Persons in the Holy Trinity. The Father loves the Son bound by the love which is the Holy Spirit.

The husband loves the wife bound by the Love which is the Holy Spirit.

Yes, believe it or not, like it or not, God is in your bedroom. Because if you love your spouse, you are sharing God with them. God is Love (1 John 4:8).
They are living with one another for financial reasons and plan to marry shortly. I suppose in this instance I’d prefer that they live together for while and realize that they aren’t compatible rather than get married and end up as another divorced couple.
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Then you place very little value on the gift of love which God has given mankind.

Marriage and the act of physical love which comes with it, is a treasure. It is to be cherished. Marriage is the Trinitarian union of man, wife through God who is love. And sex between man and wife is the completion, the culmination of that love.
As I said there are many issues but this is just two examples. How can I be a good Catholic father and bring up my boys (2 years and 7 weeks) to respect and follow the church’s feelings if I myself to agree with all of them?
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Study the teachings of the Church. Here are two good websites:

Christopher West explains the Gospel of the Body
christopherwest.com/item.asp?CategoryID=8

St. Paul Bible study
salvationhistory.com/index.cfm
Thanks in advance for your constructive feedback.
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chewie
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Is that Chuy as in spanish slang derivative for Jesse?

I hope that helps.

Sincerely,

De Maria
 
mercygate said:
I think you are actually quite “average” for a faithful Catholic. But I would advise you to get off this thread and stop being lectured by people telling you to be a good little Catholic and just “suck it up.”

It’s a WHOLE lot more productive and a WHOLE lot more fun to look into the teachings that you find objectionable to see where they came from and what they are for and WHY the Church makes a big deal about 'em. Honest.

This thread is already turning into a whining and whomping session. Get outta here and go read the *Catechism. 👍 *
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This is the best advice given in this entire thread. 🙂 What is really disturbing is that this site is called “Catholic Answers” but what you find in the message board is not answers but often judgments and incorrect advice.
iuchewie said:
Unfortunately I simply cannot live my life under the “it is what it is and you must accept it” rule. The responsibility lies with me to find those answers which I accept. That being said, I don’t view myself as a hypocrite or a bad Catholic while I’m on my journey to the Truth.

Thanks again,
chewie
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There is room for doubt. If there wasn’t doubt we wouldn’t have had all the great debates within the Church itself for many many years. You are not alone and you are NOT a bad Catholic. Many on here would have you think that burning heretics is something the Church still does so you better watch out 😛 🙂

Take heart and don’t worry too much over this. I would try and read from the US Catholic Bishops website, the catechism and some documents on the Vatican website. I wouldn’t come in here. CAF is fairly slanted one way.
 
even if one has a one percent belief in our faith. of that, one should be 100 percent sure on one’s path to salvation. at risk is our soul, for the eternity. that’s a tremendous responsability. one that i, for one, do not wish to make alone.

a person can do many things their way, but they would be wrong. the problem is that some individuals believe themselves smatter than the whole collective minds (HOLY SPIRIT) of the body of CRIST.

humility, at times, means to eat humble pie. i learned to love it. much luck.
 
I wrote this on another thread****

To All :

If anyone has problems accepting the Catholic faith about the honor and dignity of Mary as Immaculately Conceived, please stop arguing and pray. I used to doubt this mystery and the rest of the sacraments of Catholic faith. But when I started to pray the 15 mysteries of the Holy Rosary everyday, since October 2007, I started to understand the Immaculate Concepcion by heart, little by little. And all the sacraments of the Catholic Church. Then I realized why I could not grasp the faith. The truth is worldly minds could never grasp it (no matter how intelligent we are). Unlike science, math, physics etc, which we could understand through research and worldy methods, mysteries of faith is different. It could only be understood thru GRACE. And grace comes only from God. And God only gives grace to the humble, for God resists the proud (1 Peter 5:5)

Reflect on this diagram:

Proud People → God Resists → No Grace → No Understanding (even if they are very intelligent)

Humility → Prayer → God loves very dearly → Receives Grace → Receives Understanding

So, if anyone want to fully understand these mysteries, pray the 15 mysteries (with litany) everyday first for one month, then go back to this forum and tell your experience.

God Bless to everyone.
Dearest Friend and All,

If I could only show you how sinful I am, how terrible my past life was, and yet God gave me bountiful graces these days - and one of them is understanding the Catholic faith and agreeing in all of them as valid.

I know that you are all better and smarter soul than I am. So, try to pray the Holy Rosary (15 mysteries), and you will receive more graces from the Blessed Mother than what I have now. And you will understand why Apostle Paul said “The Spirit is One”. We are all in “One Mystical Body” of Christ - with one understanding, one faith, one love, one destination, one source of happiness, one Lord, one Queen and one God.
 
Dameedna said:
On Living in Sin…sigh. There is no commitment we make that is more imporant than one of marriage. Any other commitment we make in life, we explore first. We try different careers, part-time jobs as kids, we read different books to find out our interests and we play different sports to see what we like.

But we must commit to the hugest, most difficult commitment of all and NOT ONLY that, we bring little beautiful vulnerable humans into the picture…and we do that without having any idea about who we are really commiting to, or wether or not the individual is right for us.

Let’s just make a commitment…the most important one we can make, with no knowlege at all.

I think the whole no living together or being physical together before marriage is the biggest mistake of the church. You cannot dedicate your life to some-one, unless you know them first. It is irresponsible considering the human lives you will create and the problems that entail when you begin to realize this. Let’s figure it out BEFORE we hurt our children please?

For then poster who indicated that living together first, leads to divorce, you need to back that up with some serious statistics before making the claim, because it appears to be the opposite from what I’ve read. But you’ve made the claim, so back it up please. 🙂
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I would have thought that the evidence was well and truly settled. There are also studies out there that show that arranged marriages have a higher than normal success rate. I only mention this to demonstrate that commitment trumps all in relationships.
I think the church has it 100 percent correct to hold us to celibate relations until matrimony.
Gerry
 
Franciscan said:
With all due rspect this is horrible advice…
1st mistake: separarting God from religion, you’re in denial of history.
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No, I’m actually seperating the concept of God from what many people around the world will teach me about God. I don’t do this to negate any religion specifically, but if I couldn’t do this, then I would look at all religions that claim to be the truth I would have no chance in believing anything.

There is what God is…something I can never truly know or understand, and then there is a human attempt to understand it. This issue exists within every religion and denomination, and I find many early christian philosophers rather interesting because they seemed to accept their agnostic thiesm and embrace it.

They knew, what they couldn’t know…no-one had definitive answers for them.
2nd :“I won’t allow another to do the work of this life for me. I have to make up my own mind.”- Isolationist. There are three ways of knowing truth, experience,reason and belief.which by it’s nature depends on others. Do you know about history? Yes,by readig about it. Then you are relying on others ‘do the work for you’.
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No-one can do the work of life for you. This was very good advice given to me a long time ago and helped me to grow up and think for myself, instead of following the latest published militant athiest. It has nothing to do with isolating myself, I will still listen, and learn, not presume I have it all figured out.

But since I have to be responsible for my decisions, Ultimately I am still the one that actually has to make them and not let others do it for me.

It’s not Isolation, it’s maturity.
3rd: “All anyone wants is certainty”- Faith should be certain or else it’s doubt. **“There is no notion of “I understand, but I don 't agree” to thiests and athiests” -**That’s not true, I understand everything your’re saying, but I disagree. Many Catholics have weeded through many worldviews before arriving at the truth. We’re open-minded but once we see the truth and live in it we close our minds around it. Be careful not to be so opened minded that your brains fall out.
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Hmm…you do realize you kind of just proved my point?
statement about bonding is 180 degrees off. It’s the hormonre oxytosin in the female that attaches her to the man.
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I indicated that females bond through chemcials just as men do. I’m not sure what part of my comments you think are 180% off. You just agreed with me.
Do you realize that you’re comparing the God-given, Sacred Sacrament of Holy Matrimony with books,sports, part-time job. A marriage is not a hobby or a job.
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The covenant you are claiming as God given, has been described to you, by humans, decided by humans as a result of a book, that is written and interpreted as humans. You choose to believe this, and that is fine but there is no certainty in this at all.

I take marraige very seriously. I do not however trust any human, no matter how sure they are of themselves to have the whole truth about God, or his supposed covenants.

My parents are going on 50 years, and I am incredibly impressed by their commitment. At the end of the day, wether you live together first, or not the commitment still needs to be made, and we still as humans have a long way to go, before we figure it out.

Even with catholicism, you must realize that the rules, per-se have changed and that annulments are given for more reasons that they were 400 years ago. Why? Because we still have much to learn.
My wife and I waited to be with each other sexually until marriage. We are going on ten years. Happily carrying the cross of Matrimony with four children weighing it down at times. But we’ve never been so happy. I only bring thatb up because I know first hand thatb you dont need to testdrive eachother;s bodies. And waiting a year through our engagement (was not easy) but proved to us that we were more than animals.
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I am glad you are happy.
8th: The divorce rate for couples that co-habitate is a universally known truth. Just google cohabitate and divorce -rate. Here’s one ,
afany.org/News/News1.html
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Sigh…No it’s not, it’s an extremely complicated area of research, and google should never be a primary source of knowlege on this.
 
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