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davidv
Guest
I don’t understand your statement the wearing the scapular assures you of heaven. That is not the Church’s teaching.
David
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David
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Katholikos
Guest
You’re right – it makes no sense – and it isn’t true.
Do you really think that Catholics are so ignorant and stupid as to believe that they will be saved from hell by a little piece of cloth if they are guilty of unrepented mortal sin when they die? I’m sorry you know so little about Catholicism – or about the scapular.
Hang around. Allow us to teach you a thing or two.
Praying for you, Jay
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Katholikos
Guest
You’re right – it makes no sense – and it isn’t true. That isn’t what Catholics believe. That’s not the promise of the scapular.
Do you really think Catholics are so stupid that they believe they will be saved from hell by a little piece of cloth if they are guilty of unrepented mortal sin when they die? I’m sorry you know so little about Catholics or Catholicism – or about the scapular.
Hang around. Allow us to teach you a thing or two.
Praying for you, Jay
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SoulRebel777
Guest
ok so wearing the brown scapular doesnt assure you of heaven . its just a sign off inner devotion
was mary lying?
was mary lying?
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SDA2RC
Guest
I disagree, he has not shown that he is not willing to learn. He has merely said he does not believe in it because he does not understand it. Many people who have had it “explained” to them do not believe or understand it. It is an action of faith to believe in it, not an action of learning or being willing to learn. Each of us have faith at different levels. While I believe in the scapular and what it stands for, I certainly can see who someone who is not at the same place in life as I am would not. The instruction given by Mary when the scapular was given was not “you need to wear the scapular, and be in a state of grace, and have Faith in Christ etc…etc…” It was only that one need to be wearing the scapular. Whether or not usually only those who are in a state of grace already, are the ones wearing it usually, is really irrelevant to his questions because it was not stated that one need to be in a state of grace to recieve the benefits when the scapular was given. It is assumed? Possibly, but we dont know for sure, Mary did not tell us.
So… His question if valid and does not deserve to be minimized by anyone, or his motives questioned… Can one die in a state of mortal sin (yes even those who wear a scapular can fall into mortal sin) and still go to heaven just because they are wearing a piece of cloth. I think he has a Good question!
My answer would be yes they can!!
Brandon
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Prometheum_x
Guest
SoulRebel,
Could you please provide a link to that which Mary supposedly said so that we can all look at the same thing. . . and in context? That would help this conversation greatly.
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Mike_Rainville
Guest
Well I do!! Let’s just look at the basic requirements:
You have to be a “practicing” Catholic for the brown scapular, though the green scapular is highly recommended, with even fewer requirements (a) Keep it in your room or wear it (b) Ask a Catholic who believes in it say the one line prayer daily for you “O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us now and a the hour of our death”.
Mt. Carmel is the site of an ancient monastery that honoured the Mother of the Messiah long before her birth, 90 B.C. and where Mary and Joseph probably took Jesus to the beach
Maintain chastity accordiing to your state of life. (Any takers?)
Wear the scapular, blessed by the Catholic Church.
Live a regular life of prayer, usually including the daily Rosary.
Wearing a brown scapular includes a person in the contemplative Carmelite order’s prayers and merits by association. There are already many great saints of this order in Heaven, and Doctors.
Why should you be astonished that a regular affectionate devotion, that includes purity, to the most powerful, wisest, best praying, holiest, most intelligent, compassionate and loving woman who ever lived, and still lives with Jesus in Heaven?
Jesus promised that if we give so much as a cup of water to a disciple because of Him, they would not lose their reward; how much better than a cup of water is constant, tender affection for His and OUR beloved Mother!
It doesn’t mean you won’t be in purgatory until the end of time or grant immunity from sin. It does mean is that you can expect grace to repent when you fall, and to have to benefit of final repentance, either by perfect contrition or priestly absolution before you die.
In my experience, it seems to cause much greater devotion to Our Lady AND Our Lord. To my friend, a nun in the Carmel of Montreal, (coincidence?), I joked that I need a WHOLE nun because of my sins and that’s one reason she is there! Convicts visit THEM and commiserate about the bars of the cloister. Twenty-two sisters in that one convent live much as St. Therese did, though the heat now is much better. They make the hosts for Mass at my parish, rosaries and brown scapulars, and every moment of their work is filled with deep prayer, not only for those who wear the scapular, but for those who mock and ridicule it and its givers, Jesus and Mary.
If you think wearing it is too small a thing to protect us from eternal damnation, then it’s because you doubt the Love and Mercy of Jesus, and the value of our miserable prayers when she repeats them for us, embellished with her own annotations. St. Louis de Montfort speaks of her taking our rotten apples and preparing them on silver trays for Our Lord.
Doctrine of the Carmelite Scapular
Early History of Mount Carmel and the Carmelite Order
You have to be a “practicing” Catholic for the brown scapular, though the green scapular is highly recommended, with even fewer requirements (a) Keep it in your room or wear it (b) Ask a Catholic who believes in it say the one line prayer daily for you “O Mary conceived without sin, pray for us now and a the hour of our death”.
Mt. Carmel is the site of an ancient monastery that honoured the Mother of the Messiah long before her birth, 90 B.C. and where Mary and Joseph probably took Jesus to the beach
Maintain chastity accordiing to your state of life. (Any takers?)
Wear the scapular, blessed by the Catholic Church.
Live a regular life of prayer, usually including the daily Rosary.
Wearing a brown scapular includes a person in the contemplative Carmelite order’s prayers and merits by association. There are already many great saints of this order in Heaven, and Doctors.
Why should you be astonished that a regular affectionate devotion, that includes purity, to the most powerful, wisest, best praying, holiest, most intelligent, compassionate and loving woman who ever lived, and still lives with Jesus in Heaven?
Jesus promised that if we give so much as a cup of water to a disciple because of Him, they would not lose their reward; how much better than a cup of water is constant, tender affection for His and OUR beloved Mother!
It doesn’t mean you won’t be in purgatory until the end of time or grant immunity from sin. It does mean is that you can expect grace to repent when you fall, and to have to benefit of final repentance, either by perfect contrition or priestly absolution before you die.
In my experience, it seems to cause much greater devotion to Our Lady AND Our Lord. To my friend, a nun in the Carmel of Montreal, (coincidence?), I joked that I need a WHOLE nun because of my sins and that’s one reason she is there! Convicts visit THEM and commiserate about the bars of the cloister. Twenty-two sisters in that one convent live much as St. Therese did, though the heat now is much better. They make the hosts for Mass at my parish, rosaries and brown scapulars, and every moment of their work is filled with deep prayer, not only for those who wear the scapular, but for those who mock and ridicule it and its givers, Jesus and Mary.
If you think wearing it is too small a thing to protect us from eternal damnation, then it’s because you doubt the Love and Mercy of Jesus, and the value of our miserable prayers when she repeats them for us, embellished with her own annotations. St. Louis de Montfort speaks of her taking our rotten apples and preparing them on silver trays for Our Lord.
Doctrine of the Carmelite Scapular
Early History of Mount Carmel and the Carmelite Order
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hawkeye
Guest
Thats your perogative to believe or not believe, there is a story of a ship crossing the Atlantic in the 1850’s going from these parts to the USA, when an almighty storm broke out.
People were panic stricken and asked the minister to say a few prayers to tame the waters, but the storm was getting no better.
Then on board a young man stepped forward, took off his scapular, said a prayer and cast it into the sea, the waters calmed, and then a wave gently lapped to the side of the boat, throwing the scapular on-to the deck of the boat.
The minister and his wife enquired about the little peice of cloth, & shortly afterwards converted to the Catholic faith.
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hawkeye
Guest
Anyway if mum says to wear one, then it’s better to listen to Mary, do we think we know better than a lady that was the first Tabernacle on earth, dried the tears of the infant Jesus, walked with him through his terrible passion, cooked His meals.
Anyway I’ll take Mums advice, if only people realised how many prayers you had to say to obtain that little peice of cloth for you children, Thanks Mary.
Anyway I’ll take Mums advice, if only people realised how many prayers you had to say to obtain that little peice of cloth for you children, Thanks Mary.
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Socrates
Guest
I don’t really like the argumentative tone of some of the posts but I can see why some might be put off by scapulars. I’ve spoken with a lot of Catholics who seem to believe that a scapular is some sort of talismanic charm or something of that nature.
I’ve heard people recommend that if you are praying for someone’s conversion you should hide a scapular somewhere in their room. I’ve heard people defend the use of scapulars with spurious stories about people dying because they threw one away or burned one. Sorry, but if you use “magical” thinking and base your devotions on miracles and signs rather than faith in Jesus Christ you’re missing the point.
Like it or not, there are a lot of Catholics who cross the line between devotion and superstition. This is bad because 1) they don’t understand their faith and 2) they perpetuate unfair stereotypes when they discuss such things with non-Catholics.
As long as a deeper understanding of God and a deeper relationship with Christ is the focus, devotions are fine, but I’m personally uncomfortable with putting a lot of energy into something based solely in private revelation. For me, there’s more than enough public revelation to draw upon for prayer and meditation.
I’ve heard people recommend that if you are praying for someone’s conversion you should hide a scapular somewhere in their room. I’ve heard people defend the use of scapulars with spurious stories about people dying because they threw one away or burned one. Sorry, but if you use “magical” thinking and base your devotions on miracles and signs rather than faith in Jesus Christ you’re missing the point.
Like it or not, there are a lot of Catholics who cross the line between devotion and superstition. This is bad because 1) they don’t understand their faith and 2) they perpetuate unfair stereotypes when they discuss such things with non-Catholics.
As long as a deeper understanding of God and a deeper relationship with Christ is the focus, devotions are fine, but I’m personally uncomfortable with putting a lot of energy into something based solely in private revelation. For me, there’s more than enough public revelation to draw upon for prayer and meditation.
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tom.wineman
Guest
Hey, who said you had to.
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space_ghost
Guest
obviously you weren’t raised catholic… that’s ok we won’t hold that against you, nobody is perfect…(except Mary), well that’s another thread…
Look, you don’t have to believe… don’t ware one, throw it away, (burn it or bury it if it is blessed)… go in peace…
Jeeze, i guess i just don’t understand why it would bother you in the first place… i don’t know of a soul that wares one thinking that just by waring one they will go to heaven… no more than someone that carries the new testament around in their pockets will give them a buy through the pearly gates…
if someone finds comfort with it around their neck… super, why should you care…
Now, listen to me… i do care about your ignorance (lack of knowledge) about the Scapular, it’s history and it’s meaning to those who proudly ware one… you have the internet at your finger tips… use it… research the Scapular…
Chill bub…
Look, you don’t have to believe… don’t ware one, throw it away, (burn it or bury it if it is blessed)… go in peace…
Jeeze, i guess i just don’t understand why it would bother you in the first place… i don’t know of a soul that wares one thinking that just by waring one they will go to heaven… no more than someone that carries the new testament around in their pockets will give them a buy through the pearly gates…
if someone finds comfort with it around their neck… super, why should you care…
Now, listen to me… i do care about your ignorance (lack of knowledge) about the Scapular, it’s history and it’s meaning to those who proudly ware one… you have the internet at your finger tips… use it… research the Scapular…
Chill bub…
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ktm
Guest
This thread is going nowhere fast. Please join me in reporting it as a bad thread.
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SHEMP
Guest
I don’t see SoulRebel as being argumentative. I see all of you others as being highly critical of his opinion, often with personal attacks. It is not SoulRebel who needs to learn charity, it is the rest of you. Lay off. It is not required that he believe in the scapular so leave it at that.
I posted the question about “What do you wear around your neck” and I am amazed at all of the things that people wear. Some wear 5, 6, or 7 medals and scapulars!! I have trouble believing that there is not at least a small amount of superstition involved.
Thats my opinion.
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Socrates
Guest
I tend to agree with that perception but certainly I can’t say what’s in another’s mind or heart. Superstition is dangerous though, so it is something that should be openly discussed and corrected where it is apparent.
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Prometheum_x
Guest
While 5,6, or 7 medals and scapulars can be indicative of superstition, it is not necessarily so. Some people may simply find it natural to express their devotion with physical symbols, much like one might keep multiple pictures of a loved one (or their whole family) in their wallet or purse.
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hawkeye
Guest
Hello sorry(SOULREBEL777) if my postings come accross as having a go at you, they are not intended that way, anyway if we only believe in the physical world and forget that there is a Spiritual world as well then it’s hard to believe in anything.
To me the Scapular is a Spiritual Sacarmental, and it should not be used in superstition, I read that the devils in Exorcism said, and it was Saint Simon Stock performing it, “Take off that habit that robs so many souls from us, those that wear it die Piously and escape us” even this statment has to be discerned.
Anyway Prayer is Spiritual, praying to someone that we can’t see, Jesus said “Blessed are those that have not seen, yet believe” so in the end it all boils down to faith, some have more faith, some have less.
To me the Scapular is a Spiritual Sacarmental, and it should not be used in superstition, I read that the devils in Exorcism said, and it was Saint Simon Stock performing it, “Take off that habit that robs so many souls from us, those that wear it die Piously and escape us” even this statment has to be discerned.
Anyway Prayer is Spiritual, praying to someone that we can’t see, Jesus said “Blessed are those that have not seen, yet believe” so in the end it all boils down to faith, some have more faith, some have less.
M
Mijoy2
Guest
I read this thread not sure what a brown scapular was. I had this huge sort of ugly brownish scarf, almost, pictured in my head. So I did a Google Image search. I was so surprised to see it was something my sister showed me when I was a little boy (47 now). She told me at the time that if you die with it on you go straigh to Heaven. I believe (not sure) I wore it for some time. Probably lost it like I lost all my 1967 baseball cards.
I think I am going to get me one of those
Thank you Blessed Mother for giving wretches like me Hope
I think I am going to get me one of those
Thank you Blessed Mother for giving wretches like me Hope
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Tom
Guest
There has been cussin and discussion on who is being uncharitable on this thread. I’d just like to address that. It wasn’t the lack of understanding that got people defensive it was the tone. Here is the original post of the thread.
SoulRebel777:
Hey guys, I don’t understand this scapular business. Do you really think wearing one will assure one of heaven? That’s what I’ve heard. How can wearing a scapular assure one of heaven? If a person is in Mortal Sin, they’re going to hell regardless if they were this scapular. You didn’t ask a question, you made an attack, there’s a world of difference.
Re-read it SR777. It’s inflammatory, derogatory, and argumentative. If you want to learn why people believe anything don’t attack, simply ask. Would it have gotten the heated response if you had asked:
Hey guys, I don’t understand this scapular business. Do you really think wearing one will assure one of heaven? That’s what I’ve heard. How can wearing a scapular assure one of heaven? If a person is in Mortal Sin, they’re going to hell regardless if they were this scapular. You didn’t ask a question, you made an attack, there’s a world of difference.
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Della
Guest
The Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel is the habit of the Carmelite Order. When one is enrolled in the Scapular of Mount Carmel it is understood that the wearer will live according to the Carmelite charism, which is to live the Gospel according to ones baptismal vows following the Rule of St. Albert of Jerusalem.
The promise of the Scapular is a pious belief from an alleged apparition to St. Simon Stock of Aylesford, England in the 13th century. There is no historical evidence for this, however. If there ever was any it was destroyed during the reign of Henry VIII.
Whenever Mary is supposed to have made any promises in private revelations/apparitions such promises/words are subject to the interpretation and the acceptance of the Church. What others here have been trying to tell you is that such revelations do not stand on their own. They must be seen in the light of the whole teaching of the Church. And the teaching of the Church is that sacramentals, such as scapulars, are aids to salvation, but do not have the power to save anyone. This means that one must be keeping one’s baptismal and confirmation vows in order to be saved whether one has devotions based on sacramentals or not. It’s that simple.
The Carmelite Order has ruled on the use of its habit, the Scapular of Our Lady of Mount Carmel, and the Church has stated what we are to believe with regards to any words Our Lady is supposed to have said. If you insist on saying that the Church is wrong in its interpretation then your argument is not with with anyone here but with the Church.
Edit: I am a Lay Carmelite, Ancient Observance, Formation Director of the Lay Carmelite Community of St. Theresa
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