I don't believe that there is a God, but I would like to be convinced that I am wrong. (The inverse of minkymurph's thread.)

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Please explain further. The principle does not apply to itself?
Of course not. The referents of the verification principle are NOT about the objective reality, they are about the propositions ABOUT the objective reality. The epistemological methods are different. The only way to decide if an epistemological method “works” is the “pudding principle”. The proof of the pudding is that its edible. You cannot “eat” the principle.
 
“…Any one addicted to the antiquated mystery of Logic, so much studied by the superstitious School-men of the Middle Ages…will naturally answer: ‘Well, I suppose you will draw the line where the evidence fails.** You will naturally believe less where there is less evidence; and not at all where there is no evidence.** There is really no need for you to draw abstract a priori distinctions between a Seven-headed Dragon in Persia and a Nine-headed Dragon in Japan.’ The truth is that the critic is misled from the first by that vague idea that, in accepting any story, he is stepping across the border of fairyland, where any fantastic thing may happen. This is a fallacy even about preternatural things. A man may believe one miracle and not another miracle; knowing there are true and false miracles, as there are true and false banknotes… But a man might as well say that millers and cats and princesses are fabulous animals, because they appear side by side with goblins and mermaids in the stories of the nursery.”
  • G.K. Chesterton
A rather misleading quote from the old duffer. We aren’t asking if some instances of UFO sightings are true and others not. We are essentially asking if they exist, period. And then asking that if some people are convinced they do actually exist, whether that, in itself, is enough to convince you.
 
The idea that there are reasons for suffering that only God knows is itself a rational argument.
It’s a circular argument. There must be some point to our suffering because if there wasn’t, there would be no God. There is a God, so there must be some point in our suffering. As circular arguments go, it’s got quite a small radius.
 
First, suffering is necessary for various reasons. We suffer when we are ill and that alerts us and the people around us that there is a problem, for example.

Second, God has done something about suffering: He has sent us. Do you see someone who is suffering? What do you do about it? How many people turn their eyes away from the homeless man on the side of the road? How many people say they didn’t want to get involved in this or that situation?

Sometimes, however, we do not do our jobs. My child might suffer from teething but rather than comfort her and give her medicine, I may turn away. A nation’s leader may hear his people are starving but refuse to change the policies which are keeping them in that situation.

What used to happen to the ill and dying in Calcutta? What changed? A Catholic nun, because of her love for God, began to care for these least of those. Rather than let them die on the streets while others turned their heads away, she picked them up in her arms and carried them to shelter. God sent her, and she obeyed.
 
The epistemological methods are different. The only way to decide if an epistemological method “works” is the “pudding principle”. The proof of the pudding is that its edible. You cannot “eat” the principle.
Sorry, I am not very familiar with the epistemology argument. I’d have to research it further. Are you perhaps referring to proof by mathematical induction? In any case, I am simply pointing out that the Strong Verification Principle cannot be verified, and hence it fails to meet its own burden of proof. It seems to be an act of faith, according to its own standards.
 
I could be wrong, but I find your user name to be very interesting. It’s been a long time since I studied a Slavic language, but doesn’t ‘‘Vera’’ mean ‘‘Faith’’ ? and ‘‘Ljuba’’ - isn’t that from the word ‘‘Love’’ ?

You said you once had a faith in God. If The Spirit of God was alive inside of you, then he probably is still there. You might want to ask him to renew the faith you once had, which if I’m correct about your user name, then somewhere deep inside of you, there is still a faith, or at least a hope of that faith.

You sound like you’ve become angry with God. Maybe it was over a particular situation or maybe it’s because of the world, its injustices, and yes, its plain horribleness. Please remember that Satan is the one of comes who destroy, but God offers us his Spirit who can bring joy amidst the hardship.

Jesus said that in the world we will have tribulation, but he tells us not to be afraid because he has overcome the world. So the world is not a nice place, but God’s main concern is eternity–yes, he cares about us in the here and now, but this world is just a stepping stone into eternity. We can either turn to God in hope, knowing that our hardships can strengthen us to build our faith, or we can turn away in anger and refuse the embrace he offers us.

You sound like you have a lot of sorting out to do. Please, in hope, ask God to work this out in you. Please don’t turn from God and refuse that embrace. You said you had already tried this, but this is something that will take a while. Please ask God to heal the anger and the hurt and to heal your relationship with him.

You can pm me if you want.
 
No; existence is the present situation. How does that imply that it always was so? 😉

Counter-example: STT exists. Therefore, STT’s existence is the default. Therefore, STT has always existed.

See how that doesn’t work at all? 👍
By existence I mean general rather than particular. Please also read post #6.
 
I never asked for anything just for myself. When I was still young (about 10-12 years old and extremely naïve), I did ask for some extraordinary powers, but only because I wanted to help people in need.
That sounds good but certainly, the exploration and understanding of God requires more maturity. I think, to expect the kind of significant miracles from the first childhood attempts at prayer is to misunderstand. We’re building a relationship with our creator with prayer. And, it is a two-way communication. There is also an opportunity for us to give and receive - in a two-way situation. Your own experiences of human love are a good analogy.
Let me ask you: “how many negative outcomes would shake your faith”?
Just following on the above I note your term “outcomes”. That’s a term used in experimental science and it’s fine to some degree. But prayer, while it has an experimental aspect, is truly a communication with another person, God in this case. When you talk and express yourself to a person, you don’t think about “outcomes” as if you’re testing a chemical reaction.

But to go on, what ends up happening over the course of time in prayer, is that the believer no longer looks at outcomes or results as if we are testing to see what will happen. Yes, many people pray like that - as if God is a strange force out there and we have to try various things until “something happens”. That is actually not a bad way to do it at the beginning. We wonder why God responds or not. What will make Him answer? But God is not like a machine that we have to know what buttons to push. He has a reason and purpose and meaning for everything He does. He is living. And - He wants only what is the very best for us.

So, to answer your question – and many saints had this happen – if I was plunged into spiritual darkness, pain and tremendous misfortune (where everything was turning against me in every way) – yes, my faith would be shaken. Our Lord’s faith itself, as immensely strong as it was, was shaken at the night of His arrest and when He was being killed. So, negative outcomes appear in the life of a believer. God tests and builds the strength of our faith on those things.

But that’s the negative outcomes. What you didn’t ask, however, is the positive outcomes. What about those?

In my life of prayer over a course of time, I have experienced positive outcomes that go far, far beyond anything I could have created on my own, or any accidental coincidence. These outcomes are from an internal test - that only I could know the details. When a person experiences a few of those – the belief in God’s presence is locked in. It becomes absolutely certain at that point. Nobody can explain away what the person has experienced.

When that starts happening (positive outcomes that no coincidence or accident of nature could explain) - faith is built up. We then learn, there is a price to pay for positive results. For healings, blessings, gifts, protections, insights, and actual communication with God - there is a cost. But when we see those positives, we are willing to pay any price for them. That’s the “pearl of great price” in the Bible. The man sold everything to have it. Once that happens - no amount of “negative outcomes” would every weaken faith. Again, a saint like St. John of the Cross suffered incredible misfortune, hostility, persecution, injustice, physical torture - and his faith only grew stronger.

So, finally - back to the “outcomes”, what eventually happens over a long time of prayer - watching and listening carefully for God’s answer (he is described as a ‘still, small voice’ - you can’t have a lot of noise, emotion, anger, confusion, ego in your life to hear it) – is that every minute of the day is a positive outcome. God becomes your friend. He is there - constantly. He is guiding, enlightening, showing, blessing, teaching, warning – on every step of your life. You learn how to read His voice in all the events of life, external signals and internal guidances.

Yes, certainly it is the result of experimentation. We try, we fall, we learn, we stand again and try again – we make progress in the spiritual life! That’s what it’s all about.

So, I would sincerely urge you, Vera – you’re a man who is seeking, you look into things – give that an experimental try again. Seek and you will find. It’s pretty amazing to think about it, but you have the creator of the universe, who truly loves you, who knew you before your were born, who knows all your good attributes and your flaws, who wants you to have a very good life, who has every answer to every question, who has immense power – all of that! And He is right there, waiting to accompany you and to communicate Himself to you!

I can’t imagine a more exciting thing to explore, to find, and to build a life around.
Sure, and the result is almost always “negative”. Once in a “double blue moon” something seemingly positive happens, but you can never count on it.
Ok, final thought on this. Negative results occur, certainly. But your goal is to get and receive and multiply positive results.
So, when receiving a negative result, it’s essential to think about yourself and those things I mentioned. Remember, if you’re asking for a gift – there is the question of worthiness of the asker. “Have I really shown myself as ready and worthy of that kind of gift?” If you are living selfishly, for example, would it be better to fix that first before asking for something? Additionally, am I willing to give something in exchange for receiving an undeserved gift?

So, a couple of good prayer intentions to start are:
  1. To recognize that God exists, to see some evidence of His presence
  2. For help in overcoming some flaw in our character - first, for help in seeing the flaw
 
Sorry, I am not very familiar with the epistemology argument. I’d have to research it further. Are you perhaps referring to proof by mathematical induction? In any case, I am simply pointing out that the Strong Verification Principle cannot be verified, and hence it fails to meet its own burden of proof. It seems to be an act of faith, according to its own standards.
There are several types of propositions. Some refer to the external reality (the realm of physical sciences), some refer to abstract problems (mathematics, geometry, logic, etc.) and some refer to the basic area of philosophy - epistemology. The verification principle ONLY applicable to the propositions about the external reality - to the realm of physical sciences. It is not applicable to the deductive sciences. And it is not applicable to the “meta-science” of epistemology.
 
I could be wrong, but I find your user name to be very interesting. It’s been a long time since I studied a Slavic language, but doesn’t ‘‘Vera’’ mean ‘‘Faith’’ ? and ‘‘Ljuba’’ - isn’t that from the word ‘‘Love’’ ?
You are correct. But don’t read anything into it. You see that the third part “Nadezhda” (Hope) (Надежда) is not there. It would have created too long a name.
You sound like you’ve become angry with God.
No, I am not “angry”. Once upon a time I was disappointed that God does not do what any loving person WOULD do. But that was a very long time ago. You see, if someone is supposed to be a kind and loving person, we can expect him to behave a certain way. When that person behaves as an indifferent person does, we should not call him “loving”.
Please don’t turn from God and refuse that embrace.
My door is open. If God wants to come and embrace me, I will be there happily accepting that embrace. I already took the necessary step of being open and asking. The ball is in his court now.
 
Just following on the above I note your term “outcomes”. That’s a term used in experimental science and it’s fine to some degree.
It is my way of thinking. I am willing to entertain God’s existence - as a hypothesis. The hypothesis must be verified. If the verification process fails, the hypothesis must be discarded (or modified).
But prayer, while it has an experimental aspect, is truly a communication with another person, God in this case. When you talk and express yourself to a person, you don’t think about “outcomes” as if you’re testing a chemical reaction.
It depends on the kind of prayer. There is the “meditative prayer”, which is exactly what you said - to conduct a communication. And there is the “intercessory prayer”, when one asks for something. Just look at the “Prayer Intentions” part of the forum. It is filled with all sorts of “requests”. Let’s consider a few numbers. There are more than a billion Christians in the world. They probably utter at least one prayer a day. Let’s assume that 90% of those prayers are “meditative”, and only 10% is “intercessory”. I think this estimate is too generous, the percentage of intercessory prayers is much higher, nut what the heck. 🙂 Why not be generous. In this case we have about 100 million intercessory prayers every day.

I would think that very few of those prayers are “please let me win the lottery” types. Most people do not ask for themselves, they try to intercede on behalf of someone else, sick relatives or anyone suffering in general. How many of them are “fulfilled”?

Of course the “proper way” of asking is to give a loophole to God. You are supposed to add the disclaimer: “if it be thy will”. A wise (but intellectually dishonest) trick, to be able to discard the negative results. 🙂

Some people assert that God is not a “vending machine”, one cannot expect to drop in a “coin” into the “prayer slot”, and wait for the result. Why not? According to Jesus: “ask and you will have a reply”, or “knock and the door will be opened”. What is wrong to take Jesus at his word?
 
It is my way of thinking.
Yes, but you were asking me so I assumed you were interested in my way of thinking.
How many of them are “fulfilled”?
In this case, I directed the conversation towards your experience - not to everybody else in the world out there. You found no answer to your prayers. I offered some ideas that you could try.
Of course the “proper way” of asking is to give a loophole to God. You are supposed to add the disclaimer: “if it be thy will”. A wise (but intellectually dishonest) trick, to be able to discard the negative results. 🙂
No need to be cynical about the spiritual journey. We say “thy will be done”, because our will can conflict with God’s will sometimes. We want something that is not good for us. So, think about it this way “what would God want in this situation”? When you do that, you are praying for mutual benefit and success - - you are wanting what God wants to do. He may need your help, perhaps some change on your part, but He wants to give us those gifts.

How would we know that what we are asking for is the best thing?
We know many situations where lots of money actually ruins a person’s life.
Or, perhaps you want to marry a certain person - but is that the best candidate that God would pick for you?
It’s best then to pray, “please show me God, the candidate you would want for me”.
Some people assert that God is not a “vending machine”, one cannot expect to drop in a “coin” into the “prayer slot”, and wait for the result. Why not? According to Jesus: “ask and you will have a reply”, or “knock and the door will be opened”. What is wrong to take Jesus at his word?
Well, yes - two things - we don’t ask a vending machine. We just use mechanics. But on your second question, yes absolutely right! We should indeed take Jesus at His word fully. He has promised this, so why not? Now keep in mind He also gave us the parable of the judge and the persistent widow. That “…that we ought always to pray, and not to faint …”
So, yes - we must ask and expect to receive. But we have to persist and show faith and trust in God.
The vending machine thing would be a person who offered a half-hearted prayer one time, with no reverence or love for God at all - and who expected an incredible miracle to result.
 
Yes, but you were asking me so I assumed you were interested in my way of thinking.
I certainly am. Let’s hope that it goes both ways. 🙂
No need to be cynical about the spiritual journey. We say “thy will be done”, because our will can conflict with God’s will sometimes. We want something that is not good for us. So, think about it this way “what would God want in this situation”? When you do that, you are praying for mutual benefit and success - - you are wanting what God wants to do. He may need your help, perhaps some change on your part, but He wants to give us those gifts.
I am sure that there are not many Christians (or any at all) who ask for something for their own gratification. In my experience most Christians a good, selfless people who pray for others.
How would we know that what we are asking for is the best thing?
Let’s take a valid scenario. There are millions and millions of people of all ages - from newborns to the ones near to death - who suffer. There are also hundreds of millions of people who pray for them, to alleviate their suffering. And there is no sign of any intervention. According to what you said, this would mean that alleviating all those sufferings is NOT good for them? That for a child suffering of progeria (premature aging), who is aware that before she gets to age of 10 or 12, she will die of old age, it is in her best interest to suffer from this disease?

Is it in the best interest of those starving children in Africa to add some worms to their life which will burrow into their eyes and “add” blindness to their other sufferings?

Your only defense can only be that God knows best, and no matter how much people suffer is in their “best” interest? You say that we must “trust” God that he never puts too much suffering on us. Sorry, that is extremely naïve. Trust is not the “default” state of affairs. Every scam artists uses the unctuous and ingratiating phrase: “trust me”, and when the poor old lady hands over her life’s savings… the scammer just grins and disappears down the hallway.
 
I am sure that there are not many Christians (or any at all) who ask for something for their own gratification. In my experience most Christians a good, selfless people who pray for others.
Ok, perhaps if you can look at this one point in a different way, then this will be worth it. When we ask God to help ourselves, it is the most essential prayer because if we make spiritual progress - then we can do more good for others. The only way we can make spiritual progress is with the help of God. It is not for our gratificaton - but for our sancification. The best thing we can do is get closer to God. If we do that, we have helped many people without even knowing it. If we fail to improve spiritually, then our prayers will have less effect.
There are also hundreds of millions of people who pray for them, to alleviate their suffering. And there is no sign of any intervention.
Ok, we could start surveying hundreds of millions of people now, but perhaps better if we just look at two people right here. You, I think, don’t pray at all. So, that leaves me. Have I seen signs of intervention of God for the people I’ve prayed for over many years? Yes. I have seen that. So, on that basis - I would say it’s not true that there is no sign of any intervention. I have seen it myself, many times.
You say that we must “trust” God that he never puts too much suffering on us. Sorry, that is extremely naïve. Trust is not the “default” state of affairs. Every scam artists uses the unctuous and ingratiating phrase: “trust me”, and when the poor old lady hands over her life’s savings… the scammer just grins and disappears down the hallway.
I understand that you believe the default should be distrust of others and skepticism. But God does teach us that by faith in Him, we build trust - and he does open our eyes to a spiritual vision of his plan on earth. It’s a plan that includes suffering, as we saw in the life of Jesus.

Do you think that Jesus suffered in His life? What meaning do you think we can get from that? What does it tell us about how we can trust God?
 
If we fail to improve spiritually, then our prayers will have less effect.
Does this mean that the prayers of atheists (who are “spiritually impoverished” as some nincompoops are wont to say) are ineffective? And the prayers of bishops are more effective?
Ok, we could start surveying hundreds of millions of people now, but perhaps better if we just look at two people right here.
I will explain below.
You, I think, don’t pray at all. So, that leaves me. Have I seen signs of intervention of God for the people I’ve prayed for over many years? Yes. I have seen that. So, on that basis - I would say it’s not true that there is no sign of any intervention. I have seen it myself, many times.
I don’t doubt your honesty, that you genuinely believe that your prayers CAUSED an intervention by God (even though God is “immutable”). But such “one-off” instances prove nothing. When the efficacy of a new drug is tested, it is not enough to have ONE person taking ONE pill and draw conclusion from that. You need a sizable “test group” and another “control group” to see if there is a statistically significant difference between the drug and the placebo. That is why we need to look at those millions of prayers and see if there is any statistically significant result. And, as statistics show, prayers give no results. Maybe it sounds “profane”, but praying to God and praying to an empty Coke-bottle give exactly the same statistical results.
I understand that you believe the default should be distrust of others and skepticism.
Skepticism does not equal “distrust”. It is a “let’s wait and see” attitude and give trust only when it is earned.
But God does teach us that by faith in Him, we build trust…
My trust requires actual results. And when I see results, I will trust.

You passed over the last few paragraphs in my previous post about “progeria” and other questions. About the starvation of children and the worms burrowing into their eyes. Do you really believe that it is in their BEST interest to have these problems? Please answer this. I really would like to know.
 
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