I don't believe that there is a God, but I would like to be convinced that I am wrong. (The inverse of minkymurph's thread.)

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Does this mean that the prayers of atheists (who are “spiritually impoverished” as some nincompoops are wont to say) are ineffective? And the prayers of bishops are more effective?
James 5:16 D.R. Bible: Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
Maybe it sounds “profane”, but praying to God and praying to an empty Coke-bottle give exactly the same statistical results.
Literally billions of people beg to differ from personal experience.
Skepticism does not equal “distrust”. It is a “let’s wait and see” attitude and give trust only when it is earned.
For those billions, apparently their trust has been earned. 🤷
About the starvation of children and the worms burrowing into their eyes. Do you really believe that it is in their BEST interest to have these problems?
Ah, the eye worm. That along with “rape” and “genocide” seem to be the favorite shock-words of yours. It’s a disturbing parasite to have, for certain. But most that have it aren’t even aware of it, at least per the cdc article cited here multiple times.

Mosquitoes are likely way more dangerous…
 
Today is the feast of St Thomas, the Apostle. As Jesus replied when he asked to see His wounds, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.” How much more blessed were St John the Baptist and his mother? “When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Some see the wounds and not the risen Lord. In the face of the pain and unhappiness of this world, where death appears to rule, we may come to despair. It’s tempting to take on death’s mantle, using it as a source of power; ask any tyrant. In a less dramatic, but also dangerous form, spreading bitterness and cynicism, it will take an ever growing hold on one’s soul. Ultimately, these rest on a longing for the Garden, long gone and to which we can’t return. All of us, in all times and places, are able to transcend our earthly condition in Jesus Christ, through His incarnation and sacrifice at the foundations of creation and the centre of time. God is Love, the eternal Source of all existence, Goodness and Beauty, the Truth itself. In Him we find the fulfillment of our deepest desires.
 
Today is the feast of St Thomas, the Apostle. As Jesus replied when he asked to see His wounds, “Have you come to believe because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed.” How much more blessed were St John the Baptist and his mother, “When Elizabeth heard Mary’s greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.”

Some see the wounds and not the risen Lord. In the face of the pain and unhappiness of this world, where death appears to rule, we may come to despair. It’s tempting to take on death’s mantle, using it as a source of power; ask any tyrant. In a less dramatic, but also dangerous form, spreading bitterness and cynicism, it will take an ever growing hold on one’s soul. Ultimately, these rest on a longing for the Garden, long gone and to which we can’t return. All of us, in all times and places, are able to transcend our earthly condition in Jesus Christ, through His incarnation and sacrifice at the foundations of creation and the centre of time. God is Love, the eternal Source of all existence, Goodness and Beauty, the Truth itself. In Him we find the fulfillment of our deepest desires.
Well said.
 
James 5:16 D.R. Bible: Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.
We could test this. Let’s organize a new movement, collecting a large number of luke-warm believers (test group) and a bishop-heavy control group. Let them all pray for something that is not obvious and can be measured. The same principle we use to find out if a new drug is effective or not. Then we shall see if the efficacy of the prayers uttered by the bishops is higher than that of the luke-warm test group.

I predict that there will be no statistical difference. What is your bet? Such experiments have been conducted several times. Not once was there a statistical difference.
Literally billions of people beg to differ from personal experience.
How many of them prayed to a Coke-bottle? And how many had an on-going log of the results of the prayers? What was the percentage of successful prayers as compared to the unsuccessful ones. Your claim of “literally billions” is just an unsupported, anecdotal claim.
Ah, the eye worm. That along with “rape” and “genocide” seem to be the favorite shock-words of yours.
You mean they don’t bother you? Ho-hum! Little Julie was abducted and raped. Big deal! Tortured and killed, too? No problem. We shall make anther one…
 
Does this mean that the prayers of atheists (who are “spiritually impoverished” as some nincompoops are wont to say) are ineffective? And the prayers of bishops are more effective?
Are you familiar with the lives of any Catholic saints? If not, there’s no sense in me trying to get into levels of sanctity and how prayer can be more or less effective. And no, I wouldn’t say that atheists prayers are necessarily ineffective. They could actually have tremendous power if they come from a deep part within the soul and are a sincere cry to God for His help. I would think there is great potential there - perhaps more than many believers would have if they just get stuck in a routine prayer.
But, in fairness, generally speaking - a good sense of Who we are approaching in prayer is needed. That doesn’t mean we can’t complain, even sometimes bitterly (as the Prophets did at time). We are the human beings God made - He knows us better than we know ourselves.
Jesus taught us that the prayers of the Pharisees were basically useless. Those are prayers done for personal glory or to honor oneself. They are arrogant and egotistical prayers.
The prayer of a humble heart, totally dependent and searching for God is very strong.
I think it is difficult for atheists to be humble. I think it is difficult for them to have an appreciation for sacredness, or a reverence for life, or a recognition of mystery beyond us, or a willingness to admit their own limits. Atheism generally is self-oriented. The highest authority is one’s self - and it easily becomes a god for the atheist.
All of these things make it difficult for an atheist’s prayers to be effective, but God hears an answers every prayer. Every one. Even yours, and even any atheist’s.
I don’t doubt your honesty, that you genuinely believe that your prayers CAUSED an intervention by God (even though God is “immutable”). But…
“I don’t doubt your honesty, but …” 🙂
As elsewhere, I don’t use the clinical language “caused” with regard to that relationship with God. If I do something nice for my wife, her smile is not my doing - it freely comes from her. Again, she’s not a mechanism and the giving and receiving from each other is not testable in a lab.
such “one-off” instances prove nothing.
Well, they proved it to me and you didn’t doubt my honesty.
I would then say, you could try it yourself and test your own prayers. You know other, honest people (like me) have seen effects. So, perhaps try yourself to see what God will do in your life.
And, as statistics show, prayers give no results.
It’s unfortunate that I wasn’t surveyed on that one.
Skepticism does not equal “distrust”. It is a “let’s wait and see” attitude and give trust only when it is earned.
Have you earned the trust that you give to yourself? To what degree are you skeptical of your capability of understanding God? How have you tested your capabilities?
 
You passed over the last few paragraphs in my previous post about “progeria” and other questions. About the starvation of children and the worms burrowing into their eyes. Do you really believe that it is in their BEST interest to have these problems? Please answer this. I really would like to know.
As mentioned elsewhere, this is a favorite theme of yours so certainly, I hope I can help.

First The book of Wisdom, chapter 1 says this.

Do not court death* by your erring way of life nor draw to yourselves destruction by the works of your hands.
Because God did not make death,
nor does he rejoice in the destruction of the living.
…For righteousness is undying.
It was the wicked who with hands and words invited death,
considered it a friend, and pined for it,
and made a covenant with it,
Because they deserve to be allied with it.​

So no, God does not directly will the suffering and death of people. It is the wicked who bring it into the world. In the end, those who do not repent, suffer “the second death” of the soul because they want to be aligned with Satan and Hell. They choose the way of death and evil - by opposing God the source of life and goodness.

Now, regarding your diseases of children.

One thing to consider is your own sins. Your sins, through a lifetime, have contributed evil to the world. Your sins bring evil to people living today, and will affect future generations with evil effects. How are you going to make up for all of that evil that will live on after you, Vera?
Some of the evil is easy to understand. Let’s imagine you committed an abortion, as many today have done. That kills the life of a child that God intended to live. And, that child was destined to find a cure for many diseases. But the child was killed - thus children suffer disease. Now we can see, that the evil you are talking about is your own fault.

So, it is not good to blame God for the evil in the world that is the result of your own sins.

That was abortion. What about atheism? Spreading the nihilistic belief that there is no God that loves us, and there is no ultimate purpose in life is a grave sin. We can easily imagine, even after you are dead, that words of sinful atheism live on and poison the souls of people. Some young person reads your words, rejects God and falls into despair - killing himself.

See how your sins create evil?

Yes, but what about the diseases you like to blame on God?

First, that young man who committed suicide because of the sin of atheism, was going to be a financier who was going to contribute a billion dollars to research and medical aid in Africa. But now he is gone. But you are blaming God, and not your own sins for that?

In other cases, the disease itself - the worms or parasites that cause harm. It only took one mutation for those to exist at all. One mutation in a population. But the person who could have killed that mutation in the very beginning, was not in the place where God wanted him or her to be. Instead, he was getting drunk somewhere or committing adultery.

So, the one mutation, the one worm - that created the entire population (or the one mutation that would have killed it all) was not created/prevented because of one person’s sin.

Maybe that person is you, Vera. Maybe your sins today will cause a disease that affects millions tomorrow.

And you are going to judge God for that?

Why not just repent of your sins, turn away – and ask God’s mercy. He can change the evil and make it right. Our good acts - turning towards God, remove not only the evil of our sins (depending on our penance and desire) but the evil of other people’s sins which cause children to suffer disease and death.
 
In other cases, the disease itself - the worms or parasites that cause harm. It only took one mutation for those to exist at all. One mutation in a population. But the person who could have killed that mutation in the very beginning, was not in the place where God wanted him or her to be. Instead, he was getting drunk somewhere or committing adultery.
I was going to leave you two guys to it, But that statement was simply so incredibly bizarre that I just had to highlight it.
 
We could test this.
No we couldn’t. How on earth would someone know whether God presses the “accept” or “decline” button.

Keep in mind, you’re talking to an ex-Calvinist, here. Yeah, I think God can heal someone’s cancer. I also think He was still “on the throne” when they got it in the first place. He knew how it was going to shake out anyway.
Such experiments have been conducted several times. Not once was there a statistical difference.
I call the bluff. Prayer experiments in a controlled setting with a statistically significant sample size? Cite or I call B.S…
Your claim of “literally billions” is just an unsupported, anecdotal claim.
You don’t think there are literally billions of religious people of all stripes that pray?

You live under some rock in Croatia?
You mean they don’t bother you? Ho-hum! Little Julie was abducted and raped. Big deal! Tortured and killed, too? No problem. We shall make anther one…
They are disturbing. But you’re encountering the same issue ISIS is encountering with the beheading videos; overuse desensitizes your audience. Instance #1532 might still be as objectively awful as instance #0001, but the marginal impact begins to dull with each additional entry.
 
I stand corrected!

I wonder if they kept cross-data on which prayee was themselves religious.

At least, religious before they developed heart problems.
Or religious before they found out that prayer didn’t work…
 
Convince me, please. 😉
Your question is equally as hypothetical as the one I posed. The atheist cannot be convinced there is a God any more than the believer can be convince there is no God. They are entrenched positions.

An entrenched position being one has made up one’s mind and will not be swayed by anything for any reason. It’s like trying to convince someone who considers themselves Irish they are in fact British and vice versa as the entrenched position is often intrinsically linked to our sense of identity - who or what we consider ourselves to be as a parent, in in the community, our political allegiances, our methodology in addressing moral and ethical issues. Persuading an atheist there is a God would at least touch on all these elements if not overturn them. The same can be said of the believer.

Thus, both of us are engaged in a somewhat futile endeavour, but a little futility never hurt anyone and it sheds light on ‘what makes the other side tick’ - potentially dispelling stereotypical notions and promoting greater understanding of the others point of view. Contemporary democracies are melting pots of competing agendas. I compare it to rush hour traffic - everyone with their own individual agenda in terms of where they want to be and how to get there, and other motorists serve as an impediment. Rush hour traffic flows more freely when we accommodate each other, and we all get where we want to go quicker and in a less stressful manner. Of course there are those times when two motorists are so keen to accommodate each other it holds everyone up - resolved only when the ‘selfish gene’ is triggered in another motorist who takes off leaving the ‘dialoguer’s’ to it, and if often followed by others.

Neither of us will change our position, but what we can do is identify persuasive arguments. Not in terms of ‘I am convinced by this argument.’ But rather the argument itself is a good argument.
 
Point 1 - Presented in a manner designed to be persuasive to an atheist in accordance with minkymurph’s personal philosophy

Humankind has searched for something ‘greater than themselves’ from the dawn of time. Why should this have been the case? In primitive societies, would we exist simply because we do, we are here because we here and everything that is here has always been here not have been sufficient? Is it possible the believe there is ‘something greater than ourselves’ because it is true?

The cosmic energy of the universe that has power beyond are comprehension, the capacity to generate new life forms that in turn have their own creative is in a sense what believers call ‘God,’ and can it said we are all in some sense connected to this power?

Can this power personify, possess certain characteristics we define in terms of emotions? I watched a fascinating documentary about animals recently that demonstrated they are capable of intellect, making friends, love, grief, communicating with each other. Some even kept pets. Natural predators protecting each other. Is this because all life is generated from one source of ‘power’ that has possession of these qualities? Is it possible to generate life that possesses these qualities via a source of power that does not possess them in any sense? That is completely impersonal? Perhaps this is not impossible, but can it be argued to be improbable?

Disclaimer - minkymurph accepts no responsibility for how this post may be interpreted by others nor actions taken of behalf of others as a consequence of reading it.
 
Or religious before they found out that prayer didn’t work…
First, there are several kinds of prayer, Mr. Bradski. There’s pretty solid documentation of the positive effects of prayer for the one doing the praying. So swap that over-broad brush of yours for one more suitably narrow. 😉

Next, I’d see the problem if intercession made-up a large portion of someone’s faith. But like the Calvinist’s I came from, I still think God was “awake at the wheel” when you got your cancer.

Intercession seems to be so rare that I’m not sure I’ve ever seen it.
 
Or religious before they found out that prayer didn’t work…
I don’t think anyone knows how prayer ‘works.’ I believe it does.

According to the philosophy of minkymurph - and please read disclaimer at post 77 - I believe God’s direct intervention in human affairs is rare. Rather - a guiding hand. I believe prayer ‘works’ through God empowering us to find solutions to our problems, and by moving the hearts of others to say and do things that help us. Yes, it is a supernatural argument and what is perceived as supernatural is commonly accompanied by a rational explanation. Thus, I cannot offer that elusive ‘proof.’

I would add I worked on cancer projects for a number of years. A specialist in this field told me everyone gets cancer - that it is inevitable as sooner or later the human body will produce cancerous cells. He said if you carried out an autopsy on elderly people who are deemed to have died of natural causes you would find they had some kind of cancer.

If God intervened in terms of preventing disease causing gene mutation, where would God stop? We would be living in a completely artificial world. Mind you, sometimes I think we are going that way. I concede however this argument isn’t a particularly good one in terms of explaining why God would not intervene in the case of young person or child, and in these circumstances offers little consolation. Thus, it’s the best I can do but not exactly adequate.
 
Your question is equally as hypothetical as the one I posed. The atheist cannot be convinced there is a God any more than the believer can be convince there is no God. They are entrenched positions.
I don’t think so. Many times I found out that a good argument convinced me that my previous concept was incorrect, and I discarded it.

Just one example. I subscribed to the idea that “extraordinary claims requite extraordinary proofs (or evidence)”. Someone pointed out that that this is an incorrect requirement. All claims require the same amount of evidence… however, for mundane, irrelevant claims we forego this requirement and accept the claim on flimsy evidence (like unsupported personal testimonials).
 
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