I don't fear hell

[AlanFromWichita]

I hope you do not mind but I will give my advice.

Certainly it is welcome!

All though it gets interpreted as hell sometimes, Jesus did not descend to hell, he descended to the place of the dead.

Yes, another poster explained something similar. I’m not totally clear on it, but I’m OK with letting go that particular statement as perhaps being a bit glib. It probably wasn’t good strategy to include it anyway because it may have given the impression I think that Jesus and I are equally worthy or something like that.

Now, to be fair, we all have a handicap that neither Jesus nor Mary had: we were born WITH original sin, so we can never have the experience or the history of being sinless. That’s one of the reasons, and I can explain how it connects but it would probably take me many words, that I don’t necessarily buy into the popular idea WWDJ? To do what Jesus would do would be ideal, but I’d rather ask, WWJWMTD? As in, “What Would Jesus Want Me To Do?” That distinction also helps me reconcile a few of the disparities I’ve found between certain statements that have presented to me on these forums as True Catholic Teaching, and some of Jesus’s own actions.

I, like you do not really concern, myself with hell. If I go there then I deserve it.

My problem with your line of thinking is your contentment with your sate of being. Those who are humble will be exalted.

I’m very much at peace, but I actually have kind of an inferiority complex in many ways. In certain ways, I was a champion. Like in seventh grade math, I won second place in a math contest among 420 schools in the archdiocese of Chicago. Sometimes that memory has helped me in times of near-despair when I second guessed myself to the point where I was psychotically depressed.

But when it comes to other things, I am in awe of practically everyone else. I see a homeless person or someone with a chronic, painful physical illness bearing it with grace and I am truly humbled. When I was in my engineering career, I talked to people with no engineering knowledge at all for ideas on designs because their experience and intuitive insight gave me ideas no textbook could ever have. Even the most “evil” of managers I’ve seen get their inferior plans implemented, even though they make a big mess and then get promoted and blame it on their followers have something I wish I had – the skills of handling people – not that I want to follow in their footsteps but I wish that when I am assigned a job, have the training, get a solution that all the customers buy into, but cannot get it implemented due to my inability to work company politics, I feel like scum and useless. And you know what hurts me? I never took my children fishing. I feel terribly for that, but it is what it is and I have to go on living from where I am. When I was very psychotic, and thereby unemployed and disabled, begging for food stamps and welfare and for generous friends and neighbors to keep me from being homeless while I raised my six children, I envied anybody with a job. I had a master’s degree in electrical engineering and I was in awe of a person who had a Dunkin’ Donuts shirt on. Why? Because they were productive and I was scum, sucking the life blood out of others.

So if I come across as exalting myself, I apologize. I don’t mean to. I do rejoice that the Lord has seen to heal me of my psychosis, and just in time to be able to help my mother like I am able to now (and just today my second-guessing started hitting me big time but I’ll leave that alone for the moment) that I want to shout from the rooftops. I feel free! I feel peaceful! Things that scare other people don’t scare me because I’ve seen much worse – maybe not for real but they were real in my delusional mind. Like the time I was playing pipe organ for Mass at St. Anthony and I was sure the figure of Jesus on the crucifix was moving like a serpent. I literally hid behind the balcony railing (the old balcony was weak so they didn’t allow anyone upstairs unless they were my own family and I was alone that day) and only got up to play hymns and Mass parts and then right back down on the floor. When you’ve seen things like that and believed them, it’s hard to be too scared by temporary delusions from my mother, except for the pain of seeing how much it hurts her – this is the first time in her life she’s ever experienced mental illness first hand.

I guess I’m jumping topics… back to your post…

You should try to be a better Christian everyday simply because it makes you more free to Love God and others. You should want to be closer to perfection everyday while knowing you will never be perfect.

I totally agree. Jesus said, “be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.” I take that seriously as a constant goal.

So, my advice is basically do not be content with the Christian you are today, you can and should try to be a better Christian. This has nothing to do about worrying about going to hell.

I absolutely agree with you, and I like the way you put it into words. Thank you very much!

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I am reminded of what Fulton Sheen once said regarding hell:

I will get back to this. I am due to call my wife, who is probably home now from the hospital visiting her father, who was just readmitted last night after being released yesterday morning. Please pray for her, Julie (aka St. Julie ) and her father Verle, and her mother, Pat.

Could we have a paragraph or two, perhaps three or more? It would make reading ever so much easier.

Thank you. That helps. But it’s still pretty technical so I am going to have to come back to it when I have more time to focus.

Alan

 

[Miriam1947]

I will get back to this. I am due to call my wife, who is probably home now from the hospital visiting her father, who was just readmitted last night after being released yesterday morning. Please pray for her, Julie (aka St. Julie ) and her father Verle, and her mother, Pat.

Thank you. That helps. But it’s still pretty technical so I am going to have to come back to it when I have more time to focus.

Alan

I went ahead and did paragraphs which I don’t usually. But, I wanted to read this.

 

[admonsta]

I do fear hell at times. It pops into my head, and the possibility that anyone could end up there chills me to the core.

I wonder, though, if it might be a good idea to look at your wording. To say “I’m doing the best I can, I try to be good to everyone, therefore I am certain I will not go to hell” is a bit dangerous. Therein lies the sin of presumption.

I think a healthy dose of fear is a good thing to keep us imperfect creatures focused on what really matters. Below is a link to a very good instruction by St Alphonsus Liguori:

catholictradition.org/Classics/mental-prayer4.htm

From this I glean that we should often meditate on the four last things, namely death, judgement, Heaven and hell. We should have a healthy respect for these things, whether we physically feel fear for them or not. And that makes me wonder about the word “fear”. When we are told to fear the Lord, it doesn’t mean to be scared of Him, but to be in awe of Him and revere Him. So to fear hell might mean to be aware of its existence and determined never to go there.

I guess my point is that even if you are content with your goodness right now, look at the number of people who were once very devout and good, and then gradually fell away for various reasons. Never stop trying to be better.

 

[kubark]

Could we have a paragraph or two, perhaps three or more? It would make reading ever so much easier.

Thank you for the correction. By the way, the quote is taken from Fulton Sheen’s Lift Up Your Heart: A Guide to Spiritual Peace.

 

[Hail_Linus]

Certainly it is welcome!

Yes, another poster explained something similar. I’m not totally clear on it, but I’m OK with letting go that particular statement as perhaps being a bit glib. It probably wasn’t good strategy to include it anyway because it may have given the impression I think that Jesus and I are equally worthy or something like that.

Now, to be fair, we all have a handicap that neither Jesus nor Mary had: we were born WITH original sin, so we can never have the experience or the history of being sinless. That’s one of the reasons, and I can explain how it connects but it would probably take me many words, that I don’t necessarily buy into the popular idea WWDJ? To do what Jesus would do would be ideal, but I’d rather ask, WWJWMTD? As in, “What Would Jesus Want Me To Do?” That distinction also helps me reconcile a few of the disparities I’ve found between certain statements that have presented to me on these forums as True Catholic Teaching, and some of Jesus’s own actions.

I’m very much at peace, but I actually have kind of an inferiority complex in many ways. In certain ways, I was a champion. Like in seventh grade math, I won second place in a math contest among 420 schools in the archdiocese of Chicago. Sometimes that memory has helped me in times of near-despair when I second guessed myself to the point where I was psychotically depressed.

But when it comes to other things, I am in awe of practically everyone else. I see a homeless person or someone with a chronic, painful physical illness bearing it with grace and I am truly humbled. When I was in my engineering career, I talked to people with no engineering knowledge at all for ideas on designs because their experience and intuitive insight gave me ideas no textbook could ever have. Even the most “evil” of managers I’ve seen get their inferior plans implemented, even though they make a big mess and then get promoted and blame it on their followers have something I wish I had – the skills of handling people – not that I want to follow in their footsteps but I wish that when I am assigned a job, have the training, get a solution that all the customers buy into, but cannot get it implemented due to my inability to work company politics, I feel like scum and useless. And you know what hurts me? I never took my children fishing. I feel terribly for that, but it is what it is and I have to go on living from where I am. When I was very psychotic, and thereby unemployed and disabled, begging for food stamps and welfare and for generous friends and neighbors to keep me from being homeless while I raised my six children, I envied anybody with a job. I had a master’s degree in electrical engineering and I was in awe of a person who had a Dunkin’ Donuts shirt on. Why? Because they were productive and I was scum, sucking the life blood out of others.

So if I come across as exalting myself, I apologize. I don’t mean to. I do rejoice that the Lord has seen to heal me of my psychosis, and just in time to be able to help my mother like I am able to now (and just today my second-guessing started hitting me big time but I’ll leave that alone for the moment) that I want to shout from the rooftops. I feel free! I feel peaceful! Things that scare other people don’t scare me because I’ve seen much worse – maybe not for real but they were real in my delusional mind. Like the time I was playing pipe organ for Mass at St. Anthony and I was sure the figure of Jesus on the crucifix was moving like a serpent. I literally hid behind the balcony railing (the old balcony was weak so they didn’t allow anyone upstairs unless they were my own family and I was alone that day) and only got up to play hymns and Mass parts and then right back down on the floor. When you’ve seen things like that and believed them, it’s hard to be too scared by temporary delusions from my mother, except for the pain of seeing how much it hurts her – this is the first time in her life she’s ever experienced mental illness first hand.

I guess I’m jumping topics… back to your post…

I totally agree. Jesus said, “be perfect, as your Father in heaven is perfect.” I take that seriously as a constant goal.

I absolutely agree with you, and I like the way you put it into words. Thank you very much!

Alan

You and I actually think a lot a like after all. I agree with everything you wrote in your response. As a matter of fact I think I am going to use that WWJWMTD.

 

[followingtheway]

I know. I do know. When I feared hell I really did fear it greatly. I just don’t now. Maybe I’m numb or in denial, but I just found that living with that fear constantly on my mind doesn’t seem to serve any purpose. Emotional and mental issues I’m used to, but the idea of prolonged physical agony is beyond me and I admire those who suffer physical pain in dignity. Hell has to be much worse than all of that, if it’s what it’s cracked up to be.

Alan

That’s fine, as long as the lack of fear of Hell doesn’t encourage you to start sinning or stop repenting or going to confession.

God bless :byzsoc:

David

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Dear kubark,

Thank you for the information from Fulton Sheen. I did read it a couple times, and I’m not quite sure I fully understand it. There are one or two parts I believe I can “relate” to, but overall I don’t see a parallel between my own thoughts and this person he describes as an “egoist.”

I see from your quote that I wrote “maybe I’m kind of a spiritual sociopath” and that apparently triggered you to offer this writing, and I can see why. Again, as I commented above about another thing I wrote, I may have been a bit glib. I am so happy and joyous over what the Lord has done for me, even giving me “peace” during what I used to consider “difficult” times, showing me how certain seemingly “very dark” and “evil things” that have been in my past – including certain sins that were objectively committed against me – have started to fit together and make sense – that I can just scream and shout.

It seem whether of not I want to do something this way or that, God’s will is going to be done, so I might as well not fight it. I have worked very hard on “the spiritual journey” since I first met with an SD in 2001, and I think it’s paying off. When Jesus said, “I give you my peace, not as the world gives” it occurs to me that the world can only give peace by making conditions “comfortable” or “favorable” and by definition, then, that peace is conditional – and temporary only as long as the conditions are there. But the peace that Jesus gave me is not like that. Otherwise, how could I have any peace whatsoever in my present situation, not that others don’t have it much worse – and those who deal with much worse with grace I am in awe of – but I’ve had it comfortable before, when I had a nice lucrative job and flew around the country doing “important” things, before I started spiritual direction, and my happiness was nowhere near what it is now that I’ve been dragged through “heck” let’s say – nothing like the hell of some of my friends – even those who had developed mental illnesses so severe from their situations growing up that in 2005 I started my own forum site mostly because some of us were so heavily discussing mental illness (and how it interacted with our faith) that CAF wanted us to take some of our discussions elsewhere because we were giving each other advice and CAF didn’t want to have what sounded like “medical advice” being given here, which I totally understand, given the litigious nature of our society. At the time, I had nothing, was in bankruptcy, my house had burned down and my six kids, wife and I were living in two adjacent apartments we never could have rented if not for a kind landlord and a written promise to pay – with two months advance rent – by my insurance company, so I really didn’t care if I got sued.

And all of this is beginning to make sense. I have friends and relatives who have gone to their graves with “issues” about God and religion, and in fact one in particular my father had but never let me know about it lest he caused my own faith to be weak – only after Dad died I found out that He had one big issue with God which made him doubt His faith – how could God be a loving father, and yet subject His Son to what He did? That made no sense to him. He and Mom tried for many years to have children, and even had adoption papers in place, and when they did have us they showed us unconditional parental love their whole lives. It didn’t make sense to Dad that when Jesus asked for the cup to be removed, that the Father did not remove the cup – but I have even come to peace with that and wish I could retroactively “mind meld” with Dad, but the best I can do is carry on.

One thing that does bother me about the church, though, at least the way I was brought up, is that as a “practicing” cradle Catholic, I was 42 years old and in psychological trouble before I even HEARD of “the spiritual journey.” Yes, the information is out there now that there is Internet, but I did everything I was told especially when I was little and was brought up by nuns who taught me basically nothing about Jesus other than a few “feel good” stories – and they themselves demonstrated intolerance, impatience, and presumption (not all of them, but several) and that basically Catholicism was about fearing punishment at any given moment and many times I didn’t even know what I had done wrong because I was socially naive and when I asked what I had done wrong, that angered them more and I got into trouble. IMO that’s basically mental abuse, not religion, and I think too many of us are brought up with no real direction. Follow the rules, and you’ll go to heaven – maybe – but be careful because God is watching you and if you mess up he will send you to eternal punishment. I don’t know that God anymore, the God I was brought up with. Maybe that’s why I made a couple of the comment I did – I that is what God is about, then I might as well just give up because He put His Son through all of that for nothing – after all, wasn’t “follow the rules and you’ll avoid damnation – maybe” what they had BEFORE Jesus walked the earth?
(continued in next post)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued from previous post)
Now for a few specific comments:

But when the tension has ceased, God seems, at least for the moment, to have left him alone, as he wished. But in truth God never abandons him until his final rejection of grace at death. The egoist in his false peace may flatly boast he has quite “outgrown” the thoughts of God and judgment and religion and that he will now enjoy his freedom.

Something like this actually did happen to me when I was in some of the darkest moments of my mental illness – not my depression but my mania – which can actually “feel good” (because I was convinced I was Spirit-led at all times, for example, and had no confusion about right/wrong) – but is more socially destructive in many ways than depression. I did things in the name of God which I’m lucky I didn’t get locked up in jail for. My own pastor (ex-pastor thank God – my new one is compassionate and supportive and has helped me heal) made things worse when I tried to tell him some things that were absolutely true (I can get into that story later, but now years later the chickens have come home to roost in this parish and guess what – I was right) and he banned me from parish property, except for picking up and dropping off my kids at school, and coming to Mass on Friday and Sunday mornings to play piano/organ for the children’s Mass and weekly Mass, respectively. I had to sign a consent of release of my own personal medical information tot he pastor – which was none of his business – in order to allow my psychiatrist to talk to him and convince him to get the ban lifted.

So yes, I can see how somebody who thinks like I understand Sheen is talking about can be in very grave trouble, indeed.

He may acknowledge his boredom - but he fancies that a greater boldness in evil will stimulate his interest in life. As time goes on, the heart of such an egotist becomes more callous, and the tender sensitiveness of his soul is dulled.

The first sentence, I’ve had that too when very ill. The second, not so much – even when I thought I was doing right by the Spirit but was actually doing wrong, I always felt very sensitive about God and would turn around on a dime if I thought the “wind” of the Spirit would have me turn.

The new atheist does not ‘know there is no God,’ as he tells us. There is no one in the whole world who knows there is no God; but the modern atheist wishes there were no God…The fires of hell will be enkindled from within the self.

I think I have actually seen this, and had discussions with “atheists” on these very forums. Even when one of my sons (after 12 years of Catholic school etc) decided he was agnostic or atheist himself, he chided certain self-proclaimed “atheists,” telling them “atheism is just as much of a religion as any denomination.” He knew, as I always knew that atheism cannot be proven by worldly observation and more than God can be proven to a adamant non-believer.

Actually I added that caveat to my last statement (to a non-believer) because I made the statement to my mother’s wonderful Jew-turned-Christian lawyer, that “the existence of God is based on faith, which by definition means He cannot be proven.” The lawyer gave me some readings to look up and told me some things about ancient cultures and their beliefs in what held the earth up, for example (elephants standing on turtles standing on serpents, etc …) and cited several Biblical references which frankly I haven’t studied in detail yet – his assertion is that there is evidence of God that can be gleaned from the Bible – wisdom that couldn’t have come any other way. He said there were many examples, but gave me these references and a bit of explanation. As I said, I have not studied them but I took note of them and intend to: Ps 119, Isaiah 40:22, Job 27:6, Lev 17:11, Rom 8:15. I don’t remember what he said in great detail, but he said things like “life is related to blood” and the earth was a “globe” or something – I really don’t remember what, I was under great stress – I’m going to see him again next week so maybe I will read them by then and ask him more about it.
(continued in next post)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued from previous post)

There is only one thing that the egotists have in common with one another in hell, and that is the hatred that they bear for one another.

I can clearly and absolutely say, based on this, that I am (thank God) not in this category that Sheen was talking about. Except for temporary issues, I’ve never hated anyone, and like I said my parents demonstrated unconditional love. Have their been people whose death have not saddened me? Yes. Why? Because they did so much evil and destruction that frankly I thought it was better for all that they did go. But do I “hate” them? No, not anymore. Even the worst of people (did anyone read the thread about how to love Saddam Hussein – given Jesus challenged us to “love our enemies”) I can see how they can come to be the way they did, and luckily it is God’s job, not mine, to judge.

After 42 years of eating spiritual “baby food” and becoming psychotic, since I met my SD in 2001 and simultaneously undergone 10 years of severe psychosis from which I’m now finally and thankfully healed, I have finally learned to forgive myself, as I have for years forgiven others – barring a few certain grudges I’m still having a little difficulty letting go of – after all I’m still human.

I was taught when I was young not to judge others – to look at their situation, upbringing etc. But I was not taught to forgive myself – never heard of the concept until I was locked in a psych ward and called a retired pastor and asked him for absolution for not making good on my promise to come home to my wife for dinner – you see, I was locked up based on a lie and taken away right in front of my wife, being told I was just going to have an interview with a doctor – there was no doctor – but that again is a different story. Father said, “Alan, you are going to have to forgive yourself. I said, ‘I can do that?’” So now I’ve learned, and I can now say I love myself just as much as others now.

Jesus didn’t say “love your neighbor but condemn yourself,” after all, but that was the way my “spiritual baby food” led me.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I wonder, though, if it might be a good idea to look at your wording. To say “I’m doing the best I can, I try to be good to everyone, therefore I am certain I will not go to hell” is a bit dangerous. Therein lies the sin of presumption.

I don’t remember wording it that way. If I did, then I certainly take it back. I am seldom “certain” of anything – especially as an engineer. And with my mental illness of the past 10 years, I am aware of how “relative” reality – as perceived by human senses – is really quite subjective. One can be “very sure” of something that simply isn’t there. Just try to tell somebody hallucinating that there really is not a small gray dog in the house or two crabs fighting in the cabinet or red ink graffiti all over the wall – and even reads it to you.

We are all deceived to some extent through limited knowledge and perception – during our lifetimes at least we can NEVER know the “full truth,” hence the seeking of God through contemplative prayer forms and the like. (see CCC 2700-2724) Actually when you get right down to it, there is not a clear line between “sanity” and “insanity.” Mental illnesses are determined statistically and empirically. A patient is “observed” and based on the outward symptoms, they are put into a certain category and given drugs accordingly.

Some very good psychiatrists, such as my own, actually LISTENS rather than just OBSERVES and that is why they are so good; many have book knowledge but poor listening skills.

1 Cor 8:1b-2
… we realize that “all of us have knowledge”; knowledge inflates with pride, but love builds up. If anyone supposes he knows something, he does not yet know as he ought to know.

1 Cor 13:2
And if I have the gift of prophecy and comprehend all mysteries and all knowledge; if I have all faith so as to move mountains but do not have love, I am nothing.

So given my experience I can see right through people who are smug in their beliefs that they “know something” or are “completely sane” and even pity them, although they frighten me because of what they do based on those “absolute” beliefs.

You know something that gave me comfort when the world was treating me in my alleged “illness” without any discernable understanding of what I was trying to say? “The Prophet’s Song” by Queen. Here are the final lyrics of the song:

God gave you grace to purge this place
And peace all around may be your fortune

Oh oh children of the land
Love is still the answer take my hand
The vision fades a voice I hear
Listen to the madman!

But still I fear and still I dare not
Laugh at the madman!

I think a healthy dose of fear is a good thing to keep us imperfect creatures focused on what really matters. Below is a link to a very good instruction by St Alphonsus Liguori:

catholictradition.org/Classics/mental-prayer4.htm

From this I glean that we should often meditate on the four last things, namely death, judgement, Heaven and hell.

I don’t agree that it is necessarily “healthy” to meditate on those things. To me that is spiritual baby food. Like the article said, meditate on the Passion of Christ – I have no problem with that – but to “meditate” on death and hell? Sorry, been there, done that, not planning to go back any time soon.

Phil 4:6-9
Have no anxiety at all, but in everything, by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God. Then the peace of God that surpasses all understanding will guard your hearts and minds in Christ Jesus. Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is just, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is gracious, if there is any excellence and if there is anything worthy of praise, think about these things. Keep on doing what you have learned and received and heard and seen in me. Then the God of peace will be with you.

Heb 5:11-14
About this we have much to say, and it is difficult to explain, for you have become sluggish in hearing. Although you should be teachers by this time, you need to have someone teach you again the basic elements of the utterances of God. You need milk, [and] not solid food. Everyone who lives on milk lacks experience of the word of righteousness, for he is a child. But solid food is for the mature, for those whose faculties are trained by practice to discern good and evil.

Like I said, I don’t want to be good to avoid punishment; I want to be good because I want to be good. I want to be part of God’s plan. So I do my best without worrying about “why.” And as another poster said, if God deems that I deserve hell, then I guess I deserve it.

We should have a healthy respect for these things, whether we physically feel fear for them or not. And that makes me wonder about the word “fear”. When we are told to fear the Lord, it doesn’t mean to be scared of Him, but to be in awe of Him and revere Him. So to fear hell might mean to be aware of its existence and determined never to go there.

I agree with you here. Maybe we are more in agreement than it first seemed, but are talking past each other. Such are the limitations of interpreting others’ typed words and emoticons over the Internet – I’m glad you clarified that.

I guess my point is that even if you are content with your goodness right now, look at the number of people who were once very devout and good, and then gradually fell away for various reasons. Never stop trying to be better.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

That’s fine, as long as the lack of fear of Hell doesn’t encourage you to start sinning or stop repenting or going to confession.

God bless :byzsoc:

David

Alan

 

[kubark]

Thank you for the information from Fulton Sheen. I did read it a couple times, and I’m not quite sure I fully understand it. There are one or two parts I believe I can “relate” to, but overall I don’t see a parallel between my own thoughts and this person he describes as an “egoist.”

I’m sorry if I made the wrong impression with my original post. I certainly didn’t mean to associate you with the “egoist” (Sheen draws a distinction between two “selves”, the “Ego” and the “I”). It is just that when I saw your post on hell, that excerpt was the first thing I thought of. The excerpt I cited was from Sheen’s Lift Up Your Heart: A Guide To Spiritual Peace. I read it during one of the darkest moments of my life and it was an intellectual turning point that was pivotal in helping me out of addiciton and despair.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I’m sorry if I made the wrong impression with my original post. I certainly didn’t mean to associate you with the “egoist” (Sheen draws a distinction between two “selves”, the “Ego” and the “I”). It is just that when I saw your post on hell, that excerpt was the first thing I thought of. The excerpt I cited was from Sheen’s Lift Up Your Heart: A Guide To Spiritual Peace. I read it during one of the darkest moments of my life and it was an intellectual turning point that was pivotal in helping me out of addiciton and despair.

I can understand that, and see how it could have helped you. No offense taken.

If God has taught me nothing else in the past few months on these forums, it is that when somebody appears to have mischaracterized me or read something into what I wrote that I didn’t intend, it behooves me to a) review what I had written, and b) look deeper into what is being offered – and I did find your contribution of value.

There are many things that helped me greatly, when I was having difficulty, especially in the first few years that I was having my psychiatric problems. Some of them were actually from these forums; others are actually banned topics on these forums. Some were Catholic, some were non-Catholic, Christian and otherwise, and some having nothing to do with religion at all.

I could name dozens of examples. Philosophers, scientists, theologians, certain TV preachers, even certain atheists, friends and other people, and organizations. And of course, my wonderful spiritual director, Redemptorist priest Fr. Jerry Pecht. (I only wish I could have seen him longer before he went into “forced” retirement )

About TV preachers btw, it was NOT Jimmy Swaggart – in my fraternity in about 1980 we used to watch him on my black and white TV with sound off and stereo on, laughing hysterically at his emotional gyrations, especially when he pointed at the camera … I remember once we turned on the sound when he was pointing at the camera and he was yelling, “Little girl, you have SINNED!!” kpeople: A couple helpful non-Catholics that come to mind were Fred Price (after watching him I bought my first Bible – actually that was before I went psycho but after having drifted away from the church during and after college, watching him eventually led to my return), and Joyce Meyer.

Like I said, I don’t feel like I fit the category of egoist, if nothing else because of the part about hating each other. Also from your explanation it sounds like he might be talking about a “part of us” rather than a whole person? But I did relate to a couple of the items as I mentioned, and I know that when I was involved in those symptoms, those were very dark days indeed.

Like I said, there were so may examples, but one I think I will share a couple right now. Once when I really was down in a deep depression, I literally spent months wallowing around on a mattress laying on the floor, wishing my mind would just stop and the world would go away. I wasn’t exactly suicidal, but I would have preferred the world to end than for my thoughts to continue. I saw no way out, no possible trajectory, and knew I was unable to do the things I was responsible for my family to do. One friend who was often in a pretty bad depression himself, wrote to me on a chat that life is short and the clock is ticking, TICK, TICK, TICK. Don’t make it go any faster. For some reason that really made sense to me at the time.

Probably the one single most memorable item that gave me a glimmer of peace in my worst time, when I was literally lying on my back staring at the ceiling, was when my wife, aka “St. Julie” found an old 45 of hers that I’d never heard and played it for me. It was a song by Firefall, a group I’d never heard of, called “Just Remember I Love You.”

Alan

 

[thistle]

With regard to the thread topic “I don’t fear Hell”, in my opinion anyone who does not fear eternal separation from God does not truly love God.

 

[Langdell]

I fear hell, both for myself and for loved ones (especially my wife) who have fallen away from the Church. I often wonder if I don’t fear hell enough, since if I did, I would do more to evangelize.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

With regard to the thread topic “I don’t fear Hell”, in my opinion anyone who does not fear eternal separation from God does not truly love God.

If that’s your opinion based on just the title, then answer me this: have you read any of the posts? Have you read the statement that I made in the OP that I have since retracted as being either incorrect or glib? If you have, then what is your opinion of the topic as it has been developed, and if it changes based on what you read, then what would you have given as the title of the thread?

I do not wish to have eternal separation from God, but I trust in God enough that I don’t worry about it moment-by-moment. I love my mother, but I have zero fear that she is going to disown me at any given moment, nor when my dad was alive did I have that fear. :nope:

Why should I trust God’s love any less than that of my earthly mother or father?

If you do read the thread, and you hold to your opinion that the title alone says that a person doesn’t love God, then you will likely find a lot of posters here who don’t love God.

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I fear hell, both for myself and for loved ones (especially my wife) who have fallen away from the Church. I often wonder if I don’t fear hell enough, since if I did, I would do more to evangelize.

I will pray for you and your wife. I spent some time away from the Church myself, but God drew me back in quite a convoluted and interesting way – much credit goes to certain non-Catholics who got me interested in reading the Bible more than my Catholic upbringing ever did, and then I went back to the Church.

If it’s any consolation, consider this:

1 Cor 7:12-16
To the rest I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her; and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy. If the unbeliever separates, however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases; God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

I don’t know what you don’t do to evangelize that you think more fear would help motivate you to do, but IMO if you carry a spirit of fear with you when trying to evangelize it just might backfire. If we are “fishers of men,” then do you think that a fearful spirit is going to be attractive “bait” to someone who doesn’t already believe? If someone comes up and tells me that I would be better off if I were to become very afraid of something, I don’t think it would give me an incentive to listen to them. You sound like someone who cares about others – what better way to evangelize than to let people know you care about them? It’s like the saying, “people don’t care what you know until they know that you care.”

I totally understand those who say they have a “healthy fear” and I know people are motivated by different things. For myself, fear tends to make me freeze up, and takes away my peace.

I hope this helps.

Alan

 

[AnneTeresa]

I have several thoughts on this whole topic. I think different things motivate different people. Hell is real and is a possibility for all of us. But if one leans towards anxiety and fear, then that feeding that fear can become overwhelming and lead to unhealthy emotional responses. If I fear hell to the point where I feel awful and condemned, rather than motivated to serve God out of love, then it’s a problem.

For me, I believe that is the case. I know it isn’t for everyone. I am tired of living in fear and anxiety and I CHOOSE to trust in God’s promises. It is something I am learning, that I have a choice to live in fear and condemnation or to live in trust that God’s promises to me, his salvation, his mercy are true. I am no holier living in fear and anxiety than I am living in faith and hope.

I didn’t read all the responses through, so maybe someone else has already said something similar. At any rate, this is a good topic for me because in my desire to be holy I can sometimes get stuck when I think I am not being “good enough” or holy enough and that leads to fear and anxiety that is not of God. Same if I dwell on my sin. Instead, I can CHOOSE to dwell on Christ and on the progress I’m making. Certainly there is a healthy and true fear of the Lord and hell is real, but for me, it has to be kept in perspective to be healthy.

Also, reading certain saints who focus on hell and damnation is not helpful for me–reading ones that focus on God’s love does help me–at least at this point in my life.

 

[thistle]

If that’s your opinion based on just the title, then answer me this: have you read any of the posts? Have you read the statement that I made in the OP that I have since retracted as being either incorrect or glib? If you have, then what is your opinion of the topic as it has been developed, and if it changes based on what you read, then what would you have given as the title of the thread?

I do not wish to have eternal separation from God, but I trust in God enough that I don’t worry about it moment-by-moment. I love my mother, but I have zero fear that she is going to disown me at any given moment, nor when my dad was alive did I have that fear. :nope:

Why should I trust God’s love any less than that of my earthly mother or father?

If you do read the thread, and you hold to your opinion that the title alone says that a person doesn’t love God, then you will likely find a lot of posters here who don’t love God.

Alan

I hold to the opinion that whatever the circumstances are in a person’s life and no matter how much suffering they have had to bear if they do not fear eternal separation from God then it means they do not truly love God.