I don't fear hell

[Langdell]

I will pray for you and your wife. I spent some time away from the Church myself, but God drew me back in quite a convoluted and interesting way – much credit goes to certain non-Catholics who got me interested in reading the Bible more than my Catholic upbringing ever did, and then I went back to the Church.

If it’s any consolation, consider this:

1 Cor 7:12-16
To the rest I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her; and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whereas in fact they are holy. If the unbeliever separates, however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases; God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband; or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

I don’t know what you don’t do to evangelize that you think more fear would help motivate you to do, but IMO if you carry a spirit of fear with you when trying to evangelize it just might backfire. If we are “fishers of men,” then do you think that a fearful spirit is going to be attractive “bait” to someone who doesn’t already believe? If someone comes up and tells me that I would be better off if I were to become very afraid of something, I don’t think it would give me an incentive to listen to them. You sound like someone who cares about others – what better way to evangelize than to let people know you care about them? It’s like the saying, “people don’t care what you know until they know that you care.”

I totally understand those who say they have a “healthy fear” and I know people are motivated by different things. For myself, fear tends to make me freeze up, and takes away my peace.

I hope this helps.

Alan

Thank you for your prayers and for this information. It helps a lot.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I hold to the opinion that whatever the circumstances are in a person’s life and no matter how much suffering they have had to bear if they do not fear eternal separation from God then it means they do not truly love God.

OK, I gave you a chance to read the thread and respond to what has actually been said by me in my OP and in the other 50+ posts in the thread, but since you have basically repeated your last post and are ready to judge many of us based solely on the title of this thread, I’ll give you my opinion, just in case the opinion of someone you have analytically determined does not truly love God matters to you…

Now, where to start?

Hmmm… actually I’m going to have to get back to you on this… I have several urgent matters to deal with and I can’t focus very well on this. Honestly I feel kind of sad for you but I don’t want it to come across as uncharitable, so I promise, God-willing, that I will return to you. Fair enough? OK, then. You pray for me, I’ll pray for you, and I’ll … be … back!

Alan

 

[StevenFrancis]

ccc 2481(a)

 

[Justicia_et_Pax]

Maybe I’m some sort of spiritual sociopath, but I do not fear going to hell. Not at all. Nada. Zip.

I see so many threads about people who seem to live in constant fear of going to hell if they do this or that, or whether they have committed a mortal sin by thinking this or that and should they abstain from Communion or what if they die before they make it to confession, I feel terribly for them.

You know why? Because I feel like I am at perfect peace with God. Just as with my own parents, I don’t do things to offend them, but it is because I want to do what is right and good by them – not because I’m afraid they’ll punish me. When I was little I did get an occasional spanking, but that’s not why I avoided doing wrong. I avoided doing wrong because I wanted to be good, and when I was little, “good” was defined by what my parents said was good.

Oh, it’s true I’ve had my day where I delighted in wrong. But those days are past.

I even have a rough time saying the act of contrition, “because I dread the loss of heaven and the fear of hell” or whatever, and then “but MOST of all because You are all good and deserving of all my love.” Seems to me it’s almost backwards. Why not make the most important point first? It’s like dread and fear are the first things we should be thinking about.

Honestly, if I understand my Church teachings right, and I’m certainly not a theologian, one cannot just “accidentally” mortally sin anyway. It has to be calculated and intentional.

What did Jesus say when he appeared to a room full of scared people? “Fear not.” What did angels say when the appeared to people? “fear not”

So why fear?

So am I perfect? no.

Do I do wrong things, or things I later regret? Yes, occasionally.

Do I claim to totally agree with 100% of Church teachings? No, not if all I’ve been told the Church teaches are actually what she teaches.

But does that bother me? Yes and no. I try to learn, and sometimes what doesn’t make sense now makes sense later, but some things just don’t seem right – can’t come up with a good example right at the moment but if I hear one I’ll call it, and I’m not ashamed to question things.

Do I mortally sin? I don’t know. I don’t try to or want to, so maybe I don’t – at least not for a few decades since I was on my “wild” binge away from the church.

Do I look forward to heaven? Absolutely. In fact, even in difficult times (and I am having one of them now – nothing like some people’s but for me it’s a bit of a challenge) I feel so much peace – unconditional peace – in my heart, I can’t even imagine what it must be like in heaven. :heaven:

But do I fear going to hell? No. I do my best, and if that isn’t good enough and God sends me to hell, then at least I can take comfort in knowing that He sent His own Son there, too – at least for a while.

If this is blasphemous, I’m sorry, but it isn’t meant to be. I just feel so bad for people who live in constant spiritual fear and turmoil – and frankly the way I was brought up in Catholicism I used to lie awake in bed, fearing whether the devil was tempting me or whether I would go to hell – so I perfectly understand how so many people can be that way, fearing hell so much that they can’t live in peace on this earth. Not anymore, though. Honestly, it seemed that the God some of my grade school teachers tried to show me was an ogre, just waiting for us dear little children to mess up so He could punish us forever. I just don’t believe that anymore.

I think Jesus came to bring us true, unconditional, everlasting peace – not to increase our fear of hell or to make us paranoid of stepping on a crack at any given moment and losing our salvation. And I’d like to think I know how to receive that gift. And it is a gift, not something I’ve earned – but have always tried to be open to. I feel like I have received peace and joy and some of the other fruit of the spirit, even if through no merit (though much seeking) of my own.

Alan

Great post Alan. I always enjoy reading your posts

 

[AlanFromWichita]

ccc 2481(a)

Thank you for the reference. Here’s what I found when I looked up that verse; I bolded the part I assume you’re talking about. I’m repeating it because I want to make sure we are on the same verse … seems several years ago I found a difference of paragraph numbers between two printings – or a printed and an online edition, can’t remember but there was a discrepancy.

2481 – Boasting or bragging is an offense against truth. So is irony aimed at disparaging someone by maliciously caricaturing some aspect of his behavior.

If we are on the same paragraph, could you please elaborate on what in this thread it applies to and how?

If you’re talking about me, are you inferring from my statement that “I don’t fear hell” that I’m claiming “I am perfect?” If that’s the case, then I ask that you read further into the thread because that definitely is not what I’m implying and I think I’ve explained that in clear terms. If I haven’t, how can I make it clearer?

If that’s not your point, then please explain, otherwise I’m afraid I’m going to have to disregard this vague reference as a “drive-by” posting.

Alan

 

[StevenFrancis]

Thank you for the reference. Here’s what I found when I looked up that verse; I bolded the part I assume you’re talking about. I’m repeating it because I want to make sure we are on the same verse … seems several years ago I found a difference of paragraph numbers between two printings – or a printed and an online edition, can’t remember but there was a discrepancy.

2481 – Boasting or bragging is an offense against truth. So is irony aimed at disparaging someone by maliciously caricaturing some aspect of his behavior.

If we are on the same paragraph, could you please elaborate on what in this thread it applies to and how?

If you’re talking about me, are you inferring from my statement that “I don’t fear hell” that I’m claiming “I am perfect?” If that’s the case, then I ask that you read further into the thread because that definitely is not what I’m implying and I think I’ve explained that in clear terms. If I haven’t, how can I make it clearer?

If that’s not your point, then please explain, otherwise I’m afraid I’m going to have to disregard this vague reference as a “drive-by” posting.

Alan

It was the former, and I apologize. It wasn’t very charitable, and I was wrong to do it. The post struck me wrong, and I posted inappropriately. I would delete, but I don’t think the system allows this, so I’m ashamed and sorry instead.

Peace be with you,

Steven

 

[AlanFromWichita]

It was the former, and I apologize. It wasn’t very charitable, and I was wrong to do it. The post struck me wrong, and I posted inappropriately. I would delete, but I don’t think the system allows this, so I’m ashamed and sorry instead.

Peace be with you,

Steven

Thank you so much for clearing that up. I am impressed you came back and answered me. I know I have done a few posts myself I wish I could take back.

I don’t think any reasonable poster would hold it against you. If they do, I’ll have your back.

I hope you have a wonderful day!

Peace and love,
Alan

 

[thistle]

OK, I gave you a chance to read the thread and respond to what has actually been said by me in my OP and in the other 50+ posts in the thread, but since you have basically repeated your last post and are ready to judge many of us based solely on the title of this thread, I’ll give you my opinion, just in case the opinion of someone you have analytically determined does not truly love God matters to you…

Now, where to start?

Hmmm… actually I’m going to have to get back to you on this… I have several urgent matters to deal with and I can’t focus very well on this. Honestly I feel kind of sad for you but I don’t want it to come across as uncharitable, so I promise, God-willing, that I will return to you. Fair enough? OK, then. You pray for me, I’ll pray for you, and I’ll … be … back!

Alan

I look forward to your response.
By the way I have read all the posts in the thread and the OP particularly concerns me but if I give my real thoughts on that I would probably be sanctioned by the moderators.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

First, one more off-topic post, then I’ll get back to the topic for a bit, then I’m afraid I’m going to have to “wean” myself off of CAF and spend much less time here, for there is much to do and little time to do it – these last few days especially, while Mom and I have been recuperating, I’ve become all too comfortable at spending all day at the computer (CAF is only part of it) and need to kick it into high gear, with many preparations for the impending move – much of them involving physical (ugh) activity.

In consideration of that, I’ll do my best to forego my usual “verbosity” and get to the point as much as possible. [edit: it appears I’ve failed to do that, but anyway I’ll try to get through this for you who are interested – it’s actually a wonderful story I think.]

This is an update on my mother’s situation that I’ve described earlier in this thread. Clearly I was working from a position of frustration at best, but now I ask myself, “why did I worry? Why did I doubt? Do I believe the Holy Spirit will guide us and take care of things, or not?”

Short summary is she is doing amazingly better; she is very loved and many have been praying for her, and I’ve seen some wonderful and healing things, but even I, if asked last Thursday, were to guess how well she could possibly have been doing by yesterday (Sunday) I would not have “dared” to guess this well.

A few details: (I don’t remember exactly where I left off but) by Friday afternoon she was doing much better and when I called my own psychiatrist to refill a prescription and told her Mom had rested a lot these past few days and had a pretty quiet Friday so far with no particular symptoms, the seen-it-all receptionist suggested I give her a “day off” and just enjoy this good time, let her rest, and don’t even talk about her problems or the move. I did that, and Mom and I had a wonderful rest of the day together. In fact, we were in Aldi and a woman came up and said, “Nora Lee, is that you?” Turns out there were two women who knew her from church and at least one of them was a fellow choir member, and they had a nice discussion. More on that story, but I’m trying to keep it “reasonably” to the point.

Saturday she had no symptoms and was quiet … but then apparently her mind started connecting things and she started asking questions about things that I found troubling and had not answered her on, such as where the Toyota was. (She had forgotten that my son and his friend had come to pick it up and take it to Wichita a three weeks ago, originally with her knowledge and consent, but before her mind reacted so strongly to the “bad news” of Monday two weeks ago, the worst of which was that she could no longer drive – it hurt her very much as she’s been driving for 70 years, since she was 14.) In the evening I even started to draft a letter to write to her, so I could “very carefully” lay out with chance to edit and revise, and present some uncomfortable truths she needs to know, in order that she may go without having to “force” or worse yet, “deceive” her because the move was now inevitable and “doctor’s orders.”

But finally I cracked. Mom had been apparently quite lucid for two days, and I couldn’t keep avoiding answering her. I said something like, “Mom, we have some very important things to discuss, including things that are quite difficult and I really am not sure how to bring up. The last thing I want to do is lose your trust, but there are even things I’ve been keeping from you because they have been disturbing and your mind has been playing tricks on you so I have kept them away from you.” I emphasized that no professional or I actually believe there is evidence of any pathology or any disease such as dementia or alzheimer’s, but that I am told and am confident that what is going on is a “normal” way for people, especially her age, to “process” very difficult information and stress and grieving, and that her that she has been under “a great deal of stress” over the last few months and would she like to discuss it, or would she rather we sleep on it and talk about it in the morning?

[quick review, my older brother James suddenly died at age 55 in July, which is when her memory first started to fail esp. for the first two weeks, leaving me as the only one left in her family. In early September she had emergency cancer surgery to remove a very large tumor, and the two weeks ago, on Monday, she received the “bad news” from the doctor that was so distressing to her, it resulted in psychotic symptoms for almost two weeks (ending Friday) and even several times ending up on the floor, twice I had to call paramedics to help get her up – so she’s been through a lot.]
(continued in next post)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued from last post)
She said, “yes, I have been under great stress and no, if it’s important we might as well go ahead and talk about it now.” So we got into it. We talked about all this things going on in her mind, and what she has been seeing and saying and doing recently, all while emphasizing she did NOT have any evidence of pathology, therefore is NOT in the situation of her brother (who died of alzheimer’s a couple years ago). We talked about the Toyota going to Wichita and I showed her my facebook photo album of the boys taking it away that I had kept limited access because the morning they left, she forgot why they had been here (to take the car) and forgot the car was gone, and I had decided not to tell her lest it trigger a psychotic episode – until Saturday night that is. We went over the photos of where she would be going, and she remained totally lucid and reasonable throughout the conversation, though understandably not happy about it, and said, “well it looks like we need to start making some decisions on what we’ll take to Wichita.” At one point I even took photos I had taken a few days prior, to try to “prove” to her she was lying on the floor and neither in bed or in other places I won’t mention but were clearly related to her grieving over James – I almost had deleted those from my camera but then I was glad I hadn’t, as she took them seriously. I told her again, “Mom, the last thing I want to happen is for you to lose trust in me.” She said, “why would I ever quit trusting you?” And it went on for a while and she went to bed informed but still lucid, and rested well.

Well, then Sunday I didn’t say anything and we were having a quiet day – actually I spent most of the day absorbed in the computer; I didn’t want to “push it,” but wasn’t sure if she was even going to remember the discussion the evening before, much less continue to think soundly about the issues.

Then the choir director (she quit the choir this year after having been singing all her life, even on a radio show at age 6 due to accessibility problems) showed up unexpectedly at the door, introduced himself, handed me a package, and said in a rather loud voice, “this is a gift we want Nora Lee to have before she moves away.” I glanced toward Mom to see how she would react to the “move away” comment and she said, “Jim?” so I invited him in and he gave her the package in person. It was a photograph the choir assembled to take a couple days ago, apparently got all dressed up and assembled just to take that photo, along with a card signed by all the choir members. They had sent her a signed “get well” card when she was in the hospital, but I doubt she remember that. Mom was thrilled, and grateful.

But the REAL story really got good in the afternoon when Susan brought us Holy Communion (Mom has not been physically up to going to Mass). They started talking, as usual, before the prayers and Communion, and soon Mom was weeping and talking about not being able to drive and other problems she was facing, being forced to leave her home, James dying, etc. Susan handled it better than any professional therapist I’ve ever seen, plus she was a good friend who lived down the block, and let’s not forget she was holding the Body of Christ in her hand during the whole discussion. About the time she was done crying, I began to cry myself, uncontrollably, for a couple minutes. Susan handled that very well, too. We talked about celebrating Thanksgiving in Wichita with her grandchildren, joining the choir in Wichita (with our setup she won’t have the same problems she has here). After a while it turned to laughing and smiling, and I even took a photo of her smile – she has a wonderful smile and that was one of her best examples of it ever. I missed the incredible smile, but caught a very nice “aftershock” on camera.

I’ve seen a great deal of psychological and psychiatric transformations, but this was profound, and at this point I’m not even worried about getting her medication because I believe it isn’t about handling symptoms any more, but she is truly healed of the “demons” that have been “haunting” her since James’s death on July 23. (Dunno about actual demons, just using it as figure of speech.)

Finally we held hands and prayed an Our Father, Hail Mary, and Glory Be, and had Communion, then Susan said a WONDERFUL “made-up” prayer to the Lord, beautifully covering the entire situation. I was in awe, and was near-weeping again until Susan had to leave; I don’t know if she realized what I was trying to tell her, but I thanked her for bringing “the Trinity” to us. Wow. I just started crying now just trying to type this message and I can’t see … ok, I took a minute break and now I’m back.

So now it’s time to buckle down and make preparations. When I got up too early this morning, I could not get back to sleep for thinking about how much needs to be done and how little time there was to do it. I wanted to come here first to tell this story to those of you who were concerned, and to thank you for all your prayers and support – both on and off the topic of this thread.

I’ve had a lot of ups and downs, but I don’t remember being this peaceful, joyful, and thankful in a very long time. :heaven:

Alan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I look forward to your response.
By the way I have read all the posts in the thread and the OP particularly concerns me but if I give my real thoughts on that I would probably be sanctioned by the moderators.

I’m terribly sorry but honestly I forgot the things I had wanted to tell you. Especially with this post, I am really quite concerned about you and your reaction to this thread, but I really can’t afford to focus on it for too long because Mom just go up and soon I will need to tend to her again, and go about getting ready for this trip. I will endeavor to address it in a “moderator-friendly” fashion.

First, I can understand that the OP might have concerned you. As you know from having read the thread, it concerned several other poster as well, but I am curious as to what statements in it you found so troubling – that others haven’t already called me on and most of which I’ve retracted for reason ranging from being too glib, to being just plain wrong (about Jesus going to hell for example). If you don’t feel you can explain it in charity, then just quote those parts that are troubling and write, “these are the parts of concern to me.” Let me and others meditate on them and we will help you come to terms with them, and/or correct and instruct me as needed.

Second, your inability to explain your concerns to me without fear of sanctions is something I wish I could help you with. You have been around this forum nearly as long as I have (though I’ve been on-and-off for months at a time) an as “Forum Master” have about 50% most posts then me on your post count. If by now you cannot express yourself in a charitable way regarding a concern you have about my posts, then maybe you would like to hear some of the strategies I’ve used to help learn that skill. I understand how frustrating posting here can be, especially with so many different points of view and such misunderstanding, partly due to the limitations of Internet where we have no “body language” to use other than through typed characters, smileys, images, and links. In fact, on June 17 of last year I was suspended for some time when I got so frantic that I did clearly break forum rules myself. So I understand. If you want to hear some of the things that helped me and give me peace even while in the midst of forum controversy, I invite you to send me a PM and we can talk about it – or if you prefer, maybe we can start a thread about it in the “water cooler” section. Some of my online friends I still communicate with have quit coming to CAF entirely because they find it so upsetting at times they couldn’t be charitable, although a couple of them have now “tiptoed” back in even if just to read a thread I recommended to them from time to time.

If I come across as if I’m lecturing, I’m sorry but really my motive is that I love to help people, especially people with fear and despair issues. I have training in crisis intervention, as I used to be a volunteer (before the current legal environment, back when volunteers were able to do this ) telephone counselor for the Youth Crisis Hotline for Sedgwick County. In fact, that’s why I felt so ashamed that I couldn’t “control” myself in the first place last June. But hey, many of us have grown up for decades without the Internet, relatively isolated in our Catholic beliefs and practices, thinking everyone else on the planet behaved and thought the same way as us. So with this wonderful technology, and these forums which have – believe me – done me and my Catholic faith a “world” of good, it is only natural there is some clashing as all of us with diverse opinions and backgrounds gather in one place and try to discuss issues that are at times so personal we’ve never even admitted them to ourselves, much less discussed with close friends and family.

Now, about your earlier posts …

With regard to the thread topic “I don’t fear Hell”, in my opinion anyone who does not fear eternal separation from God does not truly love God.

I hold to the opinion that whatever the circumstances are in a person’s life and no matter how much suffering they have had to bear if they do not fear eternal separation from God then it means they do not truly love God.

I actually find these posts more difficult to address than your last one.

There are two major issues or concerns I have. If you are right, and your latest post is an honest characterization of the thread, then it seems a lot of us posters are in grave danger. Second, I am troubled that you have taken a position, first based solely on the thread title and then when given a chance, reinforcing it, stating clearly that your opinion is that you can make a correct judgment about what it in our hearts, with specific disregard to the fact that we all have different experiences and you have, by logical conclusion, not walked in any of our shoes – but you are willing to opine in public that we must not “truly love God.”

Maybe it has to do with the term “fear” and what it means to you; well, it is an emotionally loaded word and is used in many different contexts. If you are saying by “fearing” eternal separation from God that you have no desire to be separated, or that you find it very uncomfortable that anyone might have to endure such separation, than I’m in full agreement with you and I don’t see the problem, except rhetorical – but I do suggest that when you make such strong emotionally loaded statements, in the future you might want to expand on what you mean by them a bit, to avoid these types of misunderstandings.

(there I go again … … continued in next post)

 

[AlanFromWichita]

(continued from last post)

If, however, you are saying that we must we must live in a constant state of fear of being sent to hell, then I don’t agree, and that’s what this whole thread is really about. As the other posters here and I have discussed, I do not think that’s what ANY member of the Trinity wants or expects from us, and it is contrary to the messages from the angels quoted in the Bible. Hell is very real, and it is a frightening place, but we need not live in fear of it. Does not the Church teach that mortal sin (which can bring about this eternal separation) requires not only grave matter, but also full consent and knowledge? If we are not going around intentionally sinning regarding grave matter on a regular basis, then how is this constant state of fear healthy?

See Luke 12:22-32 – here are a some excerpts:
25 Can any of you by worrying add a moment to your lifespan?
26 If even the smallest things are beyond your control, why are you anxious about the rest?
32 Do not be afraid any longer, little flock, for your Father is pleased to give you the kingdom.

Also there is John 14:27
Peace I leave with you; my peace I give to you. Not as the world gives do I give it to you. Do not let your hearts be troubled or afraid.

Even in Revelation, which I do not claim to understand very well, we have:

Rev 1:17-18
When I caught sight of him, I fell down at his feet as though dead. He touched me with his right hand and said, “Do not be afraid. I am the first and the last, the one who lives. Once I was dead, but now I am alive forever and ever. I hold the keys to death and the netherworld.

and Rev 2:9-11
“I know your tribulation and poverty, but you are rich. I know the slander of those who claim to be Jews and are not, but rather are members of the assembly of Satan. Do not be afraid of anything that you are going to suffer. Indeed, the devil will throw some of you into prison, that you may be tested, and you will face an ordeal for ten days. Remain faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. “Whoever has ears ought to hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The victor shall not be harmed by the second death."

I hope this helps. If I have not covered your concerns, or covered them wrongly, hopefully this post will give you a starting point whereby you can put your concerns into words.

If you still have concerns you don’t believe should be posted publically, I invite you to address them to me via PM. Just be patient with me; I really need to focus on things outside CAF, so the more you see me posting here, the more I’m slacking on my “real life” responsibilities.

Peace and love,
Alan

PS One last thought: my “actual” and “honest” feelings about your third post on this thread was that I felt personally attacked, because you appeared to indicate specifically that I was so bad that I could not be dealt with excluding uncharitable replies, which resulted in my feeling you think I need to be “punished,” or “struck” in some way. I’d like to quote just a few more words of our Lord from John 18:23, and then I really, really, should get off this topic and get Mom’s breakfast and morning medicine:

“If I have spoken wrongly, testify to the wrong; but if I have spoken rightly, why do you strike me?”

Have a blessed and peaceful day, and I wish you a joyous Thanksgiving season. :tiphat:

On that note, please indulge me while I try to add a touch of levity:

http://a1.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hpho...056829077_1630416210_2296249_1926194966_n.jpg

 

[thistle]

Anyone who thinks fear of eternal separation from God means living life according to the quoted part below is obviously unstable:

“If this is blasphemous, I’m sorry, but it isn’t meant to be. I just feel so bad for people who live in constant spiritual fear and turmoil – and frankly the way I was brought up in Catholicism I used to lie awake in bed, fearing whether the devil was tempting me or whether I would go to hell – so I perfectly understand how so many people can be that way, fearing hell so much that they can’t live in peace on this earth. Not anymore, though. Honestly, it seemed that the God some of my grade school teachers tried to show me was an ogre, just waiting for us dear little children to mess up so He could punish us forever. I just don’t believe that anymore.”

 

[AlanFromWichita]

I was actually going in and editing my last post when you posted this, so we crossed in passing…

Anyone who thinks fear of eternal separation from God means living life according to the quoted part below is obviously unstable:

"If this is blasphemous, I’m sorry, but it isn’t meant to be.

…

I just don’t believe that anymore."

Aha! Thank you! Now I think I understand your concern, I think.

Maybe we don’t disagree at all.

About my comment about being blasphemous: I try not to be presumptuous, and as an engineer I am very careful – some might say “paranoid” – to I acknowledge what I don’t know.

The part I was concerned might be blasphemous, other posters have told me that I was actually incorrect so I guess it was a valid concern. I was actually referring to my immediate previous statement:

“… and if that isn’t good enough and God sends me to hell, then at least I can take comfort in knowing that He sent His own Son there, too – at least for a while.”

I have been corrected on this, and I acknowledge that it is apparently wrong theologically, and at least glib – if not blasphemous. I guessed I kind of sensed that might be the case, which is why I added the disclaimer in the first place … I do tend to get carried away at times.

As far as the rest of my quote of your concern, I’d like to examine two aspects of your comment. Maybe we have no real differences to reconcile, except perhaps rhetorically as I mentioned earlier…

Anyone who thinks fear of eternal separation from God means living life according to the quoted part below is obviously unstable:

About your phrase “fear of eternal separation from God” I still don’t know exactly what you mean, but if you are talking about a “healthy fear” or however you would explain it like other posters, then I have no problem with that, as I also explained above.

But disregarding the terminology issue, “living life according to the quoted part below is obviously unstable” NOW I think I can FULLY agree with you.

It clearly is an unstable way to think. Nevertheless, and I don’t know your age but I was in grade school in the late 60s and early 70s, with mostly nuns as teachers – who were overall great but a few often seemed angry and bitter – and this was very much the way we were trained. I say “trained,” not “taught.” That’s because, and it seems to match the experience of other of my old grade school classmates with whom I am in contact via facebook and even other posters here who grew up at the same time, they didn’t really 'teach" us religion at all.

Sure, we heard a few Bible stories like about Jonah and Moses, but only from “Children’s Bibles” which were very watered down and feel-goodish. We never cracked open an “actual” Bible in eight years – not like they do nowadays. They taught us essentially nothing about Church teachings, except for the very strict physical behavior we were to observe, such as the proper way to receive Communion. Our actual “religion” books were practically devoid of any “religion” at all. They were mostly secular commentary on political issues of the day, such as racism and the rising spectre of drug abuse, or exercises where we were to take a very abstract picture and describe “what we saw” in them – kind of a psychological experiment but not Church teaching.

If we answered a question wrong, we would be scolded and/or made fun of, and the giggles of other students were often not only tolerated but expected as part of the punishment. And you had DARE NOT ask what you did wrong, or you’d get “you know VERY well what you did, young man,” and in my case on more than one occasion after asking what I did wrong, I was literally pulled by the ear, by my teacher, into the next classroom and the nun tugging me interrupted the class and called out in front of the other class and to its teacher, “We cannot deal with this disrespectful child! Maybe if he sits in YOUR room for a while he’ll learn something!”

And as far as fear of hell? That was a CONSTANT threat for the entire class: “You may get away with something behind my back, but you can’t get it past GOD and He WILL punish you forever in hell!” or “I don’t know why I even come to this class some days when it seems like you are all going to end up in hell!”

Some older people say they were taught in no uncertain terms that anyone who was not baptized into the Catholic Church WOULD go to hell; and they grew up in constant dread for their non-Catholic friends’ eternal souls.

So, back to your point, YES! THAT sort of fear of hell makes a VERY unstable person, and in fact it contributed greatly to my severe psychotic episode that had its greatest onset in 2001, just a month before I met my first “spiritual director” who helped put me at peace and got me on the path to a more healthy view of Catholic teachings and the spiritual journey. I’m happy to say that the Lord has seen fit to heal me of this, deeply and convincingly. I’ll shout for joy from the rooftops! :extrahappy:

Honestly, a large part of what I know about “true” Catholic teachings I have learned via CAF, and for that I will be forever grateful to CA.

So yes, what I was describing was a VERY unhealthy and unstable way to view our faith, but I see all too much evidence that such thinking is behind quite a few of the more fearful and scrupulous posters here on CAF.

Oh, no, another too-long post. This time I think I’ll take just a few more minutes and edit it down some instead of splitting it.

Alan

 

[Sonny1954]

I don’t really fear Hell, either. Not because I don’t think I can’t go there. But if God wanted me to be afraid of living in Hell, then he should have done a better job looking out for us on earth. This place is hellish enough.

Besides, I don’t believe that any human, with our limited consciousness, is able to choose hell over heaven with a 100% free will. Compulsions, habits, upbringing all impinge on “free will.” Besides, since none of us really can comprehend either hell or heaven, we cannot fully, freely choose either. Human will cannot be 99% free any more than someone can be 99% pregnant…either one is or is not.

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Wow. You’ve said a lot in few words. I’ve thought things along those lines before, but never quite put them together like you have. This could be an “interesting” theological discussion, beyond what I had expected…

I don’t really fear Hell, either. Not because I don’t think I can’t go there. But if God wanted me to be afraid of living in Hell, then he should have done a better job looking out for us on earth. This place is hellish enough.

I “feel your pain.” I have been quite sure at times I was at least in purgatory, especially when I was “mentally ill.” At the time I was trying to learn about contemplative stuff and accepted it as possible “purgation” which helped me through it. I do feel like I’ve seen some things come together recently, though, that seemed to be terrible before. Like my experience with mental illness has come in handy recently when dealing with a couple of my relatives who have their own. Still though, I don’t always know “why.” I hope that what doesn’t make sense now will at some later time – before or after I die.

Besides, I don’t believe that any human, with our limited consciousness, is able to choose hell over heaven with a 100% free will. Compulsions, habits, upbringing all impinge on “free will.” Besides, since none of us really can comprehend either hell or heaven, we cannot fully, freely choose either. Human will cannot be 99% free any more than someone can be 99% pregnant…either one is or is not.

Now you have me stumped; I’ve thought similar things but didn’t know how to say them, or didn’t have the courage or energy. We are “free” to choose life – eternal bliss, or death – everlasting torture. It makes me wonder about the word “free” and what it means theologically.

For example, if I’m standing there in my living room doing nothing wrong and a half dozen SWAT team members storm through the door (like if they got the wrong address or something) and shouted, “PUT YOUR HANDS IN THE AIR,” then yes, I have a will to choose to obey them or not. I can do what they say and probably live, or try to “reason” with them or ask questions and possibly die right on the spot. How is that “free” choice? How is choosing between eternal happy life v. eternal torture any more “free” than that?

Like I wrote earlier, when I was little I wanted to do what my parents wanted me to do. I chose that not because I was afraid of spankings, but because I wanted to do it. Similarly, I want to do right by God because I choose to, not because somebody keeps threatening me with hell if I don’t. I’m with you on this; I don’t really see how this is a “free” choice.

Actually I may have brought up that point in other threads, many months ago and been taught the “right” answer, but if so I’ve forgotten it.

How about it, posters? What does “free” mean in the context that we can “freely” choose agony v. bliss? How is that “free” and not “coercion?” No, God doesn’t come and physically “force” us to do good deeds, so to that degree we have “free” will, just like the SWAT team may not physically force our hands to go in the air before they shoot.

When it comes down to it, doesn’t God “call” those He wants? Isn’t it really His choice whether we are called, and if we are truly His sheep don’t we hear His voice and respond? This is perhaps even in addition to letting us be born with original sin, brought up a certain way, etc. as you have described? Here’s part of what I’m talking about (pardon use of NIV, but I find the search engine easier to use than Catholic Bibles online I know of) that comes up when I search for the word “predestined” at biblegateway.com:

Romans 8:29
For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.

Romans 8:30
And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:5
he predestined us for adoption to sonship through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will—

Ephesians 1:11
In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

These are a very serious issues, and I intend no disrespect to anybody. But is it a sin to ask a question? I hope somebody can enlighten us without this thread turning ugly. :slapfight:

Let’s try it, anyway… we may end up needing a separate thread about “free will” although I suspect there have probably been a lot of them in the past.

Alan

 

[OneSheep]

First of all, Alan, thanks for this thread; it sounds like you are handling your family affairs, with God’s help. I picked this quote out last night, because I think of the crucifixion a little differently, for what its worth.

Now, some time back I recognized it doesn’t pay to judge myself, for some of the reasons you cited. I really don’t know my heart the way God does, so just as I cannot “correctly” judge others by their actions, neither can I “correctly” judge myself by self-observation – I just have to rely on the mercy of the Lord and the saving power of the cross.
The new part is this – putting those two together, if I cannot honestly know what’s in my heart, but God does, and I am making an effort to do right by God, then really that’s about all I can do and really if I need changing, as long as I’m open to His messages that come to me from all around and all sources, then I trust God will do that changing. If I am not intentionally committing mortal sins, then I do not see how it could be in God’s “best interest” (at the risk of applying human reasoning to God) to make me and/or fail to mold me in a way that is displeasing to Him to the point where He will condemn me for all eternity. As Jesus said, “Father forgive them for they know not what they do.” Well, they knew they were killing a man. They knew, those in charge at least, that this man had done no wrong. But Jesus said, “forgive them for they know not what they do.” I’d like to think that when Jesus said that, he was thinking about you and me just as much as the people who called for His crucifixion and hammered the nails.
(continued in next post)

As far as the “mortal sin” section of your writing, my question is "does anyone ever
intentionally harm what they see as a human? My answer: no. The crucifixion is a case in point.

As soon as we resent, I think that the mind forms an “object of resentment”. One bit of evidence for this may be the kind of case where say, a controversial activist dies in a plane crash. If it is an accident, no resentment. If there is evidence of foul play, the mind searches for the perpetrator, the Object of Resentment(OR from now on). What does my mind do with the OR? Well, the OR is evil, a jerk, an a**hole, or any other negative epithet you can think of. When a person is an OR to me, I am blind to their humanity.

I think that the crucifiers did not know they were killing a man, in terms of seeing a loving, beautiful being. They were killing what they saw as an evil, something that was not only disposable, but was “rightly” disposed of. So, to me, the “knowing not what they do” is that the crucifiers (the crowd, all involved) did not know of Jesus’ humanity, much less his divinity, which is what we do every time we attack those we demonize. Forming the OR is not under our control, it happens as automatically as a fear response to a coming locomotive. What we can control, with God’s help, is that we can forgive.

I think forgiveness is the antidote to fear of hell. Forgiveness is the unifier, the path to communion with our creator, found in all those around us. I did not stop fearing hell until I forgave everything I resented, as I have stated in many of my posts. I am not saying tthat fearing hell is unnecessary, or wrong, though. Lawrence Kohlberg showed that moral development starts from a “spanking level”, proceeds through the rule levels, and so forth, and ultimately ends at the love level, where the person behaves morally out of love for all others. Arguably, all of us need to fear hell when we are children, because this fear will keep our behavior in check until we develop the empathy and love of others sufficient to diminish the need for fear (albeit unfounded) to motivate us to behave. I must say, I did not raise my kids to fear hell, but they got plenty of hell from me when they misbehaved, my communication of non-acceptance sufficed.

For me, the fear of hell was hell.

I ran across this in Fr. Rohr’s “Falling Upward” yesterday pgs 102-103, and I think it belongs in this thread:

“If you accept a punitive notion of God, who punishes or even eternally tortures those who do not love him, then you have an absurd universe where most people end up being more loving than God! …No one is in hell unless that individual himself or herself (knowingly, OneSheep adds) chooses a final aloneness and separation… Why would Jesus’ love be so unconditional while he was in this world, and suddenly become totally conditional after death? Is it the same Jesus? … How could Jesus ask us to bless, forgive and heal our enemies, which he clearly does (Matt 5:43-48) unless God is doing it first and always?”

God Bless

 

[Pitcharan]

Maybe I’m some sort of spiritual sociopath, but I do not fear going to hell. Not at all. Nada. Zip.

I see so many threads about people who seem to live in constant fear of going to hell if they do this or that, or whether they have committed a mortal sin by thinking this or that and should they abstain from Communion or what if they die before they make it to confession, I feel terribly for them.

You know why? Because I feel like I am at perfect peace with God. Just as with my own parents, I don’t do things to offend them, but it is because I want to do what is right and good by them – not because I’m afraid they’ll punish me. When I was little I did get an occasional spanking, but that’s not why I avoided doing wrong. I avoided doing wrong because I wanted to be good, and when I was little, “good” was defined by what my parents said was good.

Oh, it’s true I’ve had my day where I delighted in wrong. But those days are past.

I even have a rough time saying the act of contrition, “because I dread the loss of heaven and the fear of hell” or whatever, and then “but MOST of all because You are all good and deserving of all my love.” Seems to me it’s almost backwards. Why not make the most important point first? It’s like dread and fear are the first things we should be thinking about.

Honestly, if I understand my Church teachings right, and I’m certainly not a theologian, one cannot just “accidentally” mortally sin anyway. It has to be calculated and intentional.

Hi Alan,
yes I too was with you but not any more. I am convinced beyond doubt that ‘fear of God’ is the beginning of wisdom.

I have been through it and can say for sure that you too will retract your above views.

What did Jesus say when he appeared to a room full of scared people? “Fear not.” What did angels say when the appeared to people? “fear not”

So why fear?

So am I perfect? no.

Do I do wrong things, or things I later regret? Yes, occasionally.

Do I claim to totally agree with 100% of Church teachings? No, not if all I’ve been told the Church teaches are actually what she teaches.

But does that bother me? Yes and no. I try to learn, and sometimes what doesn’t make sense now makes sense later, but some things just don’t seem right – can’t come up with a good example right at the moment but if I hear one I’ll call it, and I’m not ashamed to question things.

Do I mortally sin? I don’t know. I don’t try to or want to, so maybe I don’t – at least not for a few decades since I was on my “wild” binge away from the church.

Do I look forward to heaven? Absolutely. In fact, even in difficult times (and I am having one of them now – nothing like some people’s but for me it’s a bit of a challenge) I feel so much peace – unconditional peace – in my heart, I can’t even imagine what it must be like in heaven. :heaven:

But do I fear going to hell? No. I do my best, and if that isn’t good enough and God sends me to hell, then at least I can take comfort in knowing that He sent His own Son there, too – at least for a while.

If this is blasphemous, I’m sorry, but it isn’t meant to be. I just feel so bad for people who live in constant spiritual fear and turmoil – and frankly the way I was brought up in Catholicism I used to lie awake in bed, fearing whether the devil was tempting me or whether I would go to hell – so I perfectly understand how so many people can be that way, fearing hell so much that they can’t live in peace on this earth. Not anymore, though. Honestly, it seemed that the God some of my grade school teachers tried to show me was an ogre, just waiting for us dear little children to mess up so He could punish us forever. I just don’t believe that anymore.

I think Jesus came to bring us true, unconditional, everlasting peace – not to increase our fear of hell or to make us paranoid of stepping on a crack at any given moment and losing our salvation. And I’d like to think I know how to receive that gift. And it is a gift, not something I’ve earned – but have always tried to be open to. I feel like I have received peace and joy and some of the other fruit of the spirit, even if through no merit (though much seeking) of my own.

Alan

No Alan, the examples you give of ‘fear not’ are totally irrelevant.

When our Lord told them ‘fear not’ they were in a state of fear of the Jews.

when the angel told the shepherds ‘fear not’, they were in a state of fear of the unprecedented brightness of the angels that they saw for the first time in their lives.

best regards
Pitcharan

 

[AlanFromWichita]

Hey, OneSheep and Pitcharan,

It’s great to hear from you both again!

I am seriously slacking though, and now I have imminent need to get ready to take Mom to the doctor, so I’ll get back to this later – God-willing. I did quickly read through both of your posts and realize I don’t have a “quick” answer, but I wanted to acknowledge them.

I hope to get back to this thread, soon… y’all go ahead and carry on.

(I get to say “y’all” because I was raised by “former” Texans. Of course you can’t tell a Texan there even is such a thing as a "former’ Texan. )

Alan

 

[Robert_Sock]

Maybe I’m some sort of spiritual sociopath, but I do not fear going to hell. Not at all. Nada. Zip.

I see so many threads about people who seem to live in constant fear of going to hell if they do this or that, or whether they have committed a mortal sin by thinking this or that and should they abstain from Communion or what if they die before they make it to confession, I feel terribly for them.

You know why? Because I feel like I am at perfect peace with God. Just as with my own parents, I don’t do things to offend them, but it is because I want to do what is right and good by them – not because I’m afraid they’ll punish me. When I was little I did get an occasional spanking, but that’s not why I avoided doing wrong. I avoided doing wrong because I wanted to be good, and when I was little, “good” was defined by what my parents said was good.

Oh, it’s true I’ve had my day where I delighted in wrong. But those days are past.

I even have a rough time saying the act of contrition, “because I dread the loss of heaven and the fear of hell” or whatever, and then “but MOST of all because You are all good and deserving of all my love.” Seems to me it’s almost backwards. Why not make the most important point first? It’s like dread and fear are the first things we should be thinking about.

Honestly, if I understand my Church teachings right, and I’m certainly not a theologian, one cannot just “accidentally” mortally sin anyway. It has to be calculated and intentional.

What did Jesus say when he appeared to a room full of scared people? “Fear not.” What did angels say when the appeared to people? “fear not”

So why fear?

So am I perfect? no.

Do I do wrong things, or things I later regret? Yes, occasionally.

Do I claim to totally agree with 100% of Church teachings? No, not if all I’ve been told the Church teaches are actually what she teaches.

But does that bother me? Yes and no. I try to learn, and sometimes what doesn’t make sense now makes sense later, but some things just don’t seem right – can’t come up with a good example right at the moment but if I hear one I’ll call it, and I’m not ashamed to question things.

Do I mortally sin? I don’t know. I don’t try to or want to, so maybe I don’t – at least not for a few decades since I was on my “wild” binge away from the church.

Do I look forward to heaven? Absolutely. In fact, even in difficult times (and I am having one of them now – nothing like some people’s but for me it’s a bit of a challenge) I feel so much peace – unconditional peace – in my heart, I can’t even imagine what it must be like in heaven. :heaven:

But do I fear going to hell? No. I do my best, and if that isn’t good enough and God sends me to hell, then at least I can take comfort in knowing that He sent His own Son there, too – at least for a while.

If this is blasphemous, I’m sorry, but it isn’t meant to be. I just feel so bad for people who live in constant spiritual fear and turmoil – and frankly the way I was brought up in Catholicism I used to lie awake in bed, fearing whether the devil was tempting me or whether I would go to hell – so I perfectly understand how so many people can be that way, fearing hell so much that they can’t live in peace on this earth. Not anymore, though. Honestly, it seemed that the God some of my grade school teachers tried to show me was an ogre, just waiting for us dear little children to mess up so He could punish us forever. I just don’t believe that anymore.

I think Jesus came to bring us true, unconditional, everlasting peace – not to increase our fear of hell or to make us paranoid of stepping on a crack at any given moment and losing our salvation. And I’d like to think I know how to receive that gift. And it is a gift, not something I’ve earned – but have always tried to be open to. I feel like I have received peace and joy and some of the other fruit of the spirit, even if through no merit (though much seeking) of my own.

Alan

Would you consider yourself a God fearing man? Being a God fearing man is really huge in Judaism, and I think it’s well accepted by Catholics.