R
rainbow1
Guest
My interpretation of “fear of the Lord” in that quote is “respect”…not a trembling…
Love and trembling don’t go so well together…
- Status
My interpretation of “fear of the Lord” in that quote is “respect”…not a trembling…
Love and trembling don’t go so well together…
F
FraLeones
Guest
the truth is that you should not fear hell. you should fear the truth that you might get that state of soul. Over confidence in God’s mercy is an abuse and a liberal thing. WORK FOR YOUR SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING!
all of you will be afraid of hell when u get there…
i remember PADRE PIO saying this…
all of you will be afraid of hell when u get there…
i remember PADRE PIO saying this…
R
rainbow1
Guest
Padre Pio said, “We must take good care never to be upset by any disaster whatsoever which may befall us, for perturbation is never free from imperfection, originating as it does in egoism and self-love”… and he continues…“The enemy of our salvation knows only too well that peace of heart is a sure sign of the divine assistance and hence he lets slip no opportunity to make us lose this peace. We must therefore always be on our guard in this respect. Jesus will help us.”
S
simple_soul
Guest
*I have not read all the posts on this thread, my apologies Alan, but what Rainbow wrote here got me thinking…
I wonder if having a fear of hell and living in constant fear of it is what gets one into hell and keeps one there. It is like we become obsessed with the idea that we can some how save ourselves from hell if we do enough penance or say enough prayers. Somehow we become so focused on what is a sin and what is not a sin that we forget that there is no way for us, on our own, to become sinless and avoid going to hell. We forget that we, in and of ourselves, can not save ourselves from hell no matter how many prayers we say or how much penance we do or how much sin we avoid. Only Jesus Christ can save us from Hell. If we spend all our time in fear of hell how can we ever learn to depend on and trust in the mercy of Jesus Christ so that we will not go to hell?
So to me it makes perfect sense that if we focus on putting our faith and trust into Jesus Christ and follow Him He will lead us out of Hell and into Himself which is Heaven. Only He can save us from Hell through His Divine Mercy…we can either accept it or we can keep thinking we can do something to save ourselves and avoid it.
Does that make any sense or read soundly?
*
*I find that I tremble and am filled with a fear, but more of a loving reverent fear, when He is about to lead me on a learning adventure with Him,…because I love Him I try following Him anyway and I believe I have come to understand that quote by seeing how God can seemingly make good come out of my actions in spite of my sinfulness…it is like no matter how much I mess up or how sinful I am He is always able to make something good happen through it all…to see how good comes out of me in things I say and do in spite of my sinfulness fills me with a reverential awestruck fear and love for Him that does cause me to tremble…
So I do believe fear and trembling can go together, but I do not believe it is the kind of fear that causes anxiety but a fear that makes one week in the knees with that reveretial love and awe of His Salvific Saving Power or Grace…
As always I hope that makes sense…
Alan, in a nutshell, from what I have read in your posts I believe I agree with you. I do not beleive I can say I have a fear of hell either. But, what I do have a fear of is loosing my trust, hope and love in Jesus Christ and His Divine Love and Mercy. To me, to loose Him would be hell so I fear loosing Him more than I fear hell.
Hope that makes sense too…*
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
I agree with the “fear of the Lord” part because I finally looked up “fear” in the dictionary and found one definition was awe and respect, not anxiety and trembling.
That is an interesting quote from Padre Pio. As far as fearing the truth that I might get that state of soul, could you expand on that? I used to have a state of soul that certainly had quite a bit to worry about but now I believe the Lord is behind giving the sense of peace, joy, and other good things. Isn’t it true that if you are born again, you become a creature that no longer has these sort of tendencies?
I agree that being upset by a disaster can be dangerous. To me, if we really have the peace that Jesus gives us, I believe it is unconditional so if we have a “perturbation” then we may have just been tested … which means we either become more purified, or we lose the peace – depending on the outcome? I guess I’m not sure if Pio is saying we should be fearful when we are at peace because the enemy will attack when we are at peace. Maybe the enemy does attack when we are at peace, but to me to be any other way is to not have fully accepted the gift of peace that Jesus gave us. So I might say be mindful when it seems like we are “on top” that things can change, testing us, challenging us, or even killing us. I guess I’m just not sure what he’s saying so I’ll leave it at that.
Alan
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
R
rainbow1
Guest
love your post…that is so beautifully written!!!
F
fred_conty
Guest
“Beginning of wisdom is fear of the Lord” Old Testament
When I was a boy a popular song came out, “You always hurt the one you love.”
So to me there are two ways to fear the Lord, fear of his punishment, and
fear of hurting Him.
We find the same idea in our family. We fear what parents might do, but
at the same time, we want them to be proud of us because we love them
and don’t want to let them down, or hurt them.
Fear of the Lord grows into the love of the Lord. In the beginning
we fear, but as time moves on and grace is given, we begin to love more.
So growing up in the faith, we love more than we fear. And then the sufferings
of Christ and his passion, begin to take on real meaning and opens our eyes to the
his great love to which we respond quite easily. From then on we do not want to
hurt Him, which becomes our theme of life, tho the other is not forgotten.
Then our life operating from love, the heart, becomes much more pleasing then it was, coming from fear, the mind. So we start with fear as beginners, and evolve into love.
For God is Love.
Just a thought.
When I was a boy a popular song came out, “You always hurt the one you love.”
So to me there are two ways to fear the Lord, fear of his punishment, and
fear of hurting Him.
We find the same idea in our family. We fear what parents might do, but
at the same time, we want them to be proud of us because we love them
and don’t want to let them down, or hurt them.
Fear of the Lord grows into the love of the Lord. In the beginning
we fear, but as time moves on and grace is given, we begin to love more.
So growing up in the faith, we love more than we fear. And then the sufferings
of Christ and his passion, begin to take on real meaning and opens our eyes to the
his great love to which we respond quite easily. From then on we do not want to
hurt Him, which becomes our theme of life, tho the other is not forgotten.
Then our life operating from love, the heart, becomes much more pleasing then it was, coming from fear, the mind. So we start with fear as beginners, and evolve into love.
For God is Love.
Just a thought.
O
OneSheep
Guest
Your post reflects the basic premises of our Confirmation class curriculum. Moral development and relationship with God and others go hand in hand. We start out needing fear (even of God, or Hell, perhaps) to motivate us to behave, to show us our limits. So, such fear is appropriate. We soon look towards rewards for behavior, then comes the added peer pressure, then reverence for law, law is internalized. Finally, when our love for God and other expands to include everyone around us, it is love itself, compassion, that becomes the ultimate guide - “the law is written in our hearts”, as it is said. At that level of relationship, fear of hell doesn’t make sense any more.
Does this mean that everyone needs fear to keep their behavior straight as a youth? Maybe not. Can development of empathy be hurried? Does preaching fear of God and hell actually inhibit development? Maybe. My own children had to bite soap if they bit someone, but I never told them they would “go to hell if”, etc. Santa did not withhold gifts based on behavior in my home, we dealt with the behaviors as they came, worked on appropriate consequences, forgave, and encouraged forgiveness. Our children were not only well-behaved, but they were best friends then, and are still today as adults.
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
A lot of these opinions I can agree with. This is why I say that the fear of hell and promise of heaven may be useful in early formation but is not needed in a spiritually mature person.
Edit: Note I am not saying anything about fearing God here. That is about respect, reverence, and awe. That is not what I mean in this thread by “fear,” I’m talking about fearing hell, not God. I’m talking about fearing one may go to hell at any given moment and experience anxiety over that belief – and if one has accepted the peace of Christ, why would one need to experience anxiety?
One can be spiritually mature in one of two ways; either don’t get an ego built up as is usually done by the age of seven (most of us can’t rule that right out) or one has to give up that ego (false image of self) to let himself be born again of the spirit. Maybe that isn’t exactly theologically accurate statement, but something like that.
I honestly think this is the kind of thing St. Paul might have been talking about with spiritual “milk” and “solid food.” (1 Cor 3:2, Heb 5:12) Are you motivated by designs of the ego, or are you willing to become spirit-led? When you’re spirit-led, you’re moved to do what is right whether or not it is the “easiest” path. Like in the song “The Impossible Dream,” where it goes, “to be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause.” Sometimes the shepherd has to go icky places to find lost sheep.
Alan
Edit: Note I am not saying anything about fearing God here. That is about respect, reverence, and awe. That is not what I mean in this thread by “fear,” I’m talking about fearing hell, not God. I’m talking about fearing one may go to hell at any given moment and experience anxiety over that belief – and if one has accepted the peace of Christ, why would one need to experience anxiety?
One can be spiritually mature in one of two ways; either don’t get an ego built up as is usually done by the age of seven (most of us can’t rule that right out) or one has to give up that ego (false image of self) to let himself be born again of the spirit. Maybe that isn’t exactly theologically accurate statement, but something like that.
I honestly think this is the kind of thing St. Paul might have been talking about with spiritual “milk” and “solid food.” (1 Cor 3:2, Heb 5:12) Are you motivated by designs of the ego, or are you willing to become spirit-led? When you’re spirit-led, you’re moved to do what is right whether or not it is the “easiest” path. Like in the song “The Impossible Dream,” where it goes, “to be willing to march into hell for a heavenly cause.” Sometimes the shepherd has to go icky places to find lost sheep.
Alan
R
rainbow1
Guest
R
rainbow1
Guest
Alan, the more I think about this topic, the more I am aware that the God that I relate to and experience is so different than the way He is often described. The God that answers my prayer is so gentle and kind and merciful…He does the sweetest things…
P
Pitcharan
Guest
ACT OF CONTRITION
O my God,
I am heartily sorry for
having offended Thee,
and I detest all my sins,
because** I dread the loss of heaven,
and the pains of hell**;
but most of all because
they offend Thee, my God,
Who are all good and
deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve,
with the help of Thy grace,
to confess my sins,
to do penance,
and to amend my life.
Amen.
O my God,
I am heartily sorry for
having offended Thee,
and I detest all my sins,
because** I dread the loss of heaven,
and the pains of hell**;
but most of all because
they offend Thee, my God,
Who are all good and
deserving of all my love.
I firmly resolve,
with the help of Thy grace,
to confess my sins,
to do penance,
and to amend my life.
Amen.
You should!
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Pitcharan,
You have a point. It is difficult for me to say this particular act of contrition. I don’t dread the loss of heaven or the pains of hell. For that matter I don’t particularly dread offending my God who are all good and deserving of all my love.
After 25 years of marriage to my wife, I don’t worry about offending her because I do not wish to do anything offensive to her. After 52 years of being Catholic, I don’t worry about offending God because I do not wish to do anything offensive to Him. And without premeditated, full knowledge-and-consent mortal sins, I don’t see that Catholic Teachings give me a reason I should worry about the loss of heaven or pains of hell.
Why? What good does it do you, for me to be afraid of hell? Is that what you think I need to keep from doing something unfair to you?
Alan
P
Pitcharan
Guest
I pray and hopefully await to hear you tell me one day: Yes, I hate and dread to offend my God and face the rod of His affliction.
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
I can at least say this: I have offended my God in the past in numerous ways, and for those I am thankful for His mercy. (I have hurt His people. Some of them have graciously accepted my apologies and are even facebook friends after “decades-old” hurts. Some of them I will never get a chance to apologize to.) I do not wish to offend Him in the future. If I do so, it will be by accident and not premeditated.
To view it a different way, if I have a premeditated desire to separate myself from God again, then no fear of anything in the future – even hell – is likely to change that because if I desire to go against God I certainly have something seriously wrong with my thinking.
Alan
R
rainbow1
Guest
I oftentimes think about how Jesus forgave us as he died for even murdering him. We murdered God, and God forgave us. I would say that this is pretty encompassing mercy and forgiveness…I can at least say this: I have offended my God in the past in numerous ways, and for those I am thankful for His mercy. (I have hurt His people. Some of them have graciously accepted my apologies and are even facebook friends after “decades-old” hurts. Some of them I will never get a chance to apologize to.) I do not wish to offend Him in the future. If I do so, it will be by accident and not premeditated.
To view it a different way, if I have a premeditated desire to separate myself from God again, then no fear of anything in the future – even hell – is likely to change that because if I desire to go against God I certainly have something seriously wrong with my thinking.
Alan
St. Faustina
I would have died at the very sight of these tortures if the omnipotence of God had not supported me. Let the sinner know that he will be tortured throughout all eternity, in those senses which he made use of to sin. I am writing this at the command of God, so that no soul may find an excuse by saying there is no hell, or that nobody has ever been there, and so no one can say what it is like. I, sister Faustina, by the order of God, have visited the abysses of hell so that I might tell souls about it and testify to its existence.
Diary (741).
Honestly, this is the last place you want to end up in.
A
AlanFromWichita
Guest
Agreed. I don’t plan to, either.
- Status