I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[Prodigal_Son1]

Jesus did not obey all of the religious authority. Does he get a pass on this?

Are you serious?

Christians believe Christ is the highest authority.

 

[1beleevr]

I’ll agree the earliest Christians referred to themselves as the ‘Way’. But it changed, as documented by St. Ignatius and continued to be documented to present day, by secular historians, as well as Church historians. Of course we know the ‘Way’ cannot be documented other than those earliest Christians.

People act as if it’s proof of some kind because the term ‘Catholic’ itself is not in the Bible. The term ‘Catholic’ is derived from the Greek, as shown and used in scriptures. The Church, like any establishment, had to go through a growth period. St. Ignatius called it the ‘Catholic Church’, specifically, around the year 110AD. This was sometime before the letters and epistles came together to form the New Testament and the canon of the New Testament had not yet been defined. The authoritative Church came first and through it, God inspired the scriptures be written by the authoritative men of the Church. That’s what this whole discussion is about, in my opinion; the authority of the Church. It’s scripturally supported, even if some want to dispute the interpretation. That’s more than can be said of those who preach ‘scripture authority’. That’s just not supported by scriptures.

There are points raised that support the authoritative Church, such as the pillar and ground of truth. One particular poster tried to make that the ‘mind and soul’ of the believers. When it was pointed out that through the context of the verse, we see Paul is telling people how to conduct themselves in the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth, we see no more discussion. This is why so many of us find there is no open mind, or honesty applied to the discussion. It’s simply to reject Catholicism, at all costs, even if it means ignoring scriptures, or so it seems.

I don’t understand why they had to change a perfectly good name

 

[larkin31]

Are you serious?

Christians believe Christ is the highest authority.

So, that’s a yes.

“Do as I say, not as I do”—even from Jesus!

 

[guanophore]

Christians believe that it is Christ only that saves us, not works to as Catholics believe

I find it interesting that you are posting anti-Catholic propoganda using the name “Catholicnow”. :nope:

 

[Hereswith]

Hi Jimmy. I think that is a great question. I was Protestant for 30 years of my life. So I can answer. I can think of at least a few reasons:

1 - Lack of exposure to Catholicism. Raised Protestant, few Catholics around - this is true in many small towns in the Midwest, I know.
2 - Rumor and misinformation. Many Protestants believe some weird things about Catholics. Some of this was purposely begun by various Protestant “apologists” in the past. Ugly stuff.
3 - Some Catholics get very caught up in following this rule or that, this law from Vatican II, who is understanding theology in the purer form, who is accepting a heresy or not, or whatever, and forget what Christianity is. I’m sorry, but sadly - I see a lot of this here at this site. Big discussions about how you must worship, how you must pray, what type of sin specifically you have committed. Good grief, People!!! Have you forgotten what Christ came to do? To teach us? To LOVE one another. To Love GOD. That is about it. I think you all forget that a lot, and get caught up in intellectualizing and dogmatic detail, to the detriment of FAITH. It makes me sad, as a Catholic convert, and someone who loves Catholicism. I don’t mean to criticize - I offer this as an honest answer to your honest question. It is a real problem in Catholic ideology. When Protestants tell me they dislike that about Catholics, I really can offer no defense.

 

[Roy5]

Hereswith

Excellent posting. I confess that I have been attracted in the opposite direction from you. I so often find Catholicism harsh in judging other faiths, as though Catholics are the only ones on their way to heaven. I am drawn toward a 'big tent' view of Christianity which seems to be alien to both conservative Catholicism and conservative Protestantism. 

Here in the northeast, where Catholicism is strong, too often an individual bishop or priest transmits an attitude of arrogance, that his faith alone speaks for God, almost akin to the spirit of Muslim fundamentalism. I don't find this attirude popular among the Catholic rank-and-file, and certainly not among the mainline Protestant denominations, which seem to be committed to a 'think and let think' mentality, ready and eager to cooperate when it comes to common causes - soup kitchens and such. They take strong exception to many aspects of Catholicism - from various dogmae to clergy celibacy, refusal to ordain women, etc. - but they have a broader spirit of mutual respect, not only for Catholicism but for non-Christian religions as well. 

 Now, among Protestant fundamentalists there is a different story, of course, and they can be hostile toward both Catholicism and mainline Protestantism (Methodists, Lutherans, UCC, Presbyterians, etc.). 

 I'm quite sure, in my own mind, that Christ would be very pleased if we stop this silly sectarianism, that we stop pretending that we alone understand this mammoth, marvelous and majestic universe, and make a greater effort to appreciate the different streams of Christianity. There were different streams from the early days of the church, many suppressed as heresies, but 'heresy' is a word that I find offensive and alienating. Why can't devout Christians love God and love one another but have different understandings of the scriptures? Frankly, the scriptures aren't that clear at many spots, and I have come to the point of rejecting certain stories that strike me more as legend and folklore than serious history. The creation and Adam and Eve story, Noah and the ark, and the Tower of Babel - quick examples of fables/legends teaching us lessons but certainly not authentic history. 

 God bless Catholics, Protestants and people of every faith who seek to live by the two commandments of Christ, loving God and one another. Tragically, rigid doctrine not only divides us but wastes our time debating trivia. None of us knows very much when we think of this tiny speck floating in a space with perhaps a billion or many billion planets, stars and even galaxies!  Let's make religion a bridge instead of a barrier.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Hereswith

Excellent posting. I confess that I have been attracted in the opposite direction from you. I so often find Catholicism harsh in judging other faiths, as though Catholics are the only ones on their way to heaven. I am drawn toward a ‘big tent’ view of Christianity which seems to be alien to both conservative Catholicism and conservative Protestantism.

Here in the northeast, where Catholicism is strong, too often an individual bishop or priest transmits an attitude of arrogance, that his faith alone speaks for God, almost akin to the spirit of Muslim fundamentalism. I don’t find this attirude popular among the Catholic rank-and-file, and certainly not among the mainline Protestant denominations, which seem to be committed to a ‘think and let think’ mentality, ready and eager to cooperate when it comes to common causes - soup kitchens and such. They take strong exception to many aspects of Catholicism - from various dogmae to clergy celibacy, refusal to ordain women, etc. - but they have a broader spirit of mutual respect, not only for Catholicism but for non-Christian religions as well.

Now, among Protestant fundamentalists there is a different story, of course, and they can be hostile toward both Catholicism and mainline Protestantism (Methodists, Lutherans, UCC, Presbyterians, etc.).

I’m quite sure, in my own mind, that Christ would be very pleased if we stop this silly sectarianism, that we stop pretending that we alone understand this mammoth, marvelous and majestic universe, and make a greater effort to appreciate the different streams of Christianity. There were different streams from the early days of the church, many suppressed as heresies, but ‘heresy’ is a word that I find offensive and alienating. Why can’t devout Christians love God and love one another but have different understandings of the scriptures? Frankly, the scriptures aren’t that clear at many spots, and I have come to the point of rejecting certain stories that strike me more as legend and folklore than serious history. The creation and Adam and Eve story, Noah and the ark, and the Tower of Babel - quick examples of fables/legends teaching us lessons but certainly not authentic history.

God bless Catholics, Protestants and people of every faith who seek to live by the two commandments of Christ, loving God and one another. Tragically, rigid doctrine not only divides us but wastes our time debating trivia. None of us knows very much when we think of this tiny speck floating in a space with perhaps a billion or many billion planets, stars and even galaxies! Let’s make religion a bridge instead of a barrier.

Matthew 22:37-39

He said to him, "You shall love the Lord, your God, with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. The second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

John 14:15

“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.”

John 14:23,24

Jesus answered and said to him, "Whoever loves me will keep my word, and my Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our dwelling with him. Whoever does not love me does not keep my words; yet the word you hear is not mine but that of the Father who sent me.
Hello Roy5,

Knowing this (verses above), where is there room for any disagreement on the issues of faith and morals? There isn’t. According to John’s gospel, in order to keep Christ’s first Commandment, if we love God, then we will obey God. So then, what does it mean to “Love God”. How does one reconcile for instance, the different Christian beliefs regarding homosexuality and homosexual marriage? Or, the different beliefs regarding marriage in general, or confession , or any of the other Holy Sacraments? What about the Ten Commandments? There exists three versions of the Ten Commandments in Christianity. How is it that we are to keep the Sabbath holy, for example? What about “engraven images”? I can go on and on, regarding the differences in beliefs that go directly to the issues of faith and morals. The only things that we can agree on, are those things that we already agree on… meaning, those things that are Catholic. As the first Christian religion/denomination, these issues were already defined, a thousand years before any Protestant denomination. Any Protestant belief, which is the same as a Catholic belief, originated as a Catholic belief and therefore, IS a Catholic belief. It is the “re-invention” of Christianity by Protestants and the allowing for personal interpretation of the bible, where the problems and differences arise. Don’t you agree?

Your Thoughts?

 

[1beleevr]

I’ll agree the earliest Christians referred to themselves as the ‘Way’. But it changed, as documented by St. Ignatius and continued to be documented to present day, by secular historians, as well as Church historians. Of course we know the ‘Way’ cannot be documented other than those earliest Christians.

People act as if it’s proof of some kind because the term ‘Catholic’ itself is not in the Bible. The term ‘Catholic’ is derived from the Greek, as shown and used in scriptures. The Church, like any establishment, had to go through a growth period. St. Ignatius called it the ‘Catholic Church’, specifically, around the year 110AD. This was sometime before the letters and epistles came together to form the New Testament and the canon of the New Testament had not yet been defined. The authoritative Church came first and through it, God inspired the scriptures be written by the authoritative men of the Church. That’s what this whole discussion is about, in my opinion; the authority of the Church. It’s scripturally supported, even if some want to dispute the interpretation. That’s more than can be said of those who preach ‘scripture authority’. That’s just not supported by scriptures.

There are points raised that support the authoritative Church, such as the pillar and ground of truth. One particular poster tried to make that the ‘mind and soul’ of the believers. When it was pointed out that through the context of the verse, we see Paul is telling people how to conduct themselves in the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of truth, we see no more discussion. This is why so many of us find there is no open mind, or honesty applied to the discussion. It’s simply to reject Catholicism, at all costs, even if it means ignoring scriptures, or so it seems.

I couldn’t find “katholikos”, or catholic in my KJV Bible(Acts 9:31) Is it only in a Geek Bible? Or a catholic Bible?

 

[1beleevr]

No one denies that dissention exists in every group of humans. God has provided a way to prevent dissention, so it does not have to exist among us. If we are connected to the Head, we will be in unity. The fact that we are not is a reflection of the fact that we are improperly connnected.

You don’t need to be intimidated by the Truth, 1b. The Scriptures do not allow for disagreement and dissention in the Body. We are to be of one mind, and one heart.

No, and at such times, the unity that God desires for us is absent.

No, 1b, you are talking here about the behavior of individuals. What needs to be in unity is the DOCTRINE! Everyone will stipulate that human beings, including cardinals, make mistakes. We will also stipulate that those who have sinned against children have left the path of righteousness.

The “differences” you and Tweety are trying to justify are regarding DOCTRINE! This is something the Apostles did not allow.

Ah, sweet guanophore; always ready with words of wisdom! Of course I know that it is doctrine! At work, we call it “being on the same page!” Because of free will, we are able to be swayed by fast talking, sincere sounding “snake oil selling,” false prophets! God does desire unity, and some day we will have it! Just think, no more denominations, no more religions, no more infighting, just glorious worshipping and praising!

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I couldn’t find “katholikos”, or catholic in my KJV Bible(Acts 9:31) Is it only in a Geek Bible? Or a catholic Bible?

It’s found in the Greek Interlinear, that the Douay-Rheims and King James were translated from.

**Acts 9:31

(IGNT+) αιG3588 THE μενG3303 INDEED ουνG3767 THEN εκκλησιαιG1577 ASSEMBLIES καθG2596 THROUGHOUT οληςG3650 WHOLE** τηςG3588 THE ιουδαιαςG2449 OF JUDEA καιG2532 AND γαλιλαιαςG1056 GALILEE καιG2532 AND σαμαρειαςG4540 SAMARIA ειχονG2192 [G5707] HAD ειρηνηνG1515 PEACE, οικοδομουμεναιG3618 [G5746] BEING BUILT UP καιG2532 AND πορευομεναιG4198 [G5740] GOING ON τωG3588 IN THE φοβωG5401 FEAR τουG3588 OF THE κυριουG2962 LORD, καιG2532 AND τηG3588 IN THE παρακλησειG3874 COMFORT τουG3588 OF THE αγιουG40 HOLY πνευματοςG4151 SPIRIT επληθυνοντοG4129 [G5712] WERE INCREASED.

G2596
κατά
kata
kat-ah’
A primary particle; (preposition) down (in place or time), in varied relations (according to the case [genitive, dative or accusative] with which it is joined): - about, according as (to), after, against, (when they were) X alone, among, and, X apart, (even, like) as (concerning, pertaining to, touching), X aside, at, before, beyond, by, to the charge of, [charita-] bly, concerning, + covered, [dai-] ly, down, every, (+ far more) exceeding, X more excellent, for, from . . . to, godly, in (-asmuch, divers, every, -to, respect of), . . . by, after the manner of, + by any means, beyond (out of) measure, X mightily, more, X natural, of (up-) on (X part), out (of every), over against, (+ your) X own, + particularly, so, through (-oughout, -oughout every), thus, (un-) to (-gether, -ward), X uttermost, where (-by), with. In composition it retains many of these applications, and frequently denotes opposition, distribution or intensity.

G3650
ὅλος
holos
hol’-os
A primary word; “whole” or “all”, that is, complete (in extent, amount, time or degree), especially (neuter) as noun or adverb: - all, altogether, every whit, + throughout, whole.

kata holos
kat-ah’ hol’-os
Catholic is an adjective derived from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning “universal”.

 

[larkin31]

I couldn’t find “katholikos”, or catholic in my KJV Bible(Acts 9:31) Is it only in a Geek Bible? Or a catholic Bible?

THAT word is not in the extant Greek copies that we have. It is a formation of a word from the two words “kata” and “holos” that actually are the words in the Greek version and mean “throughout all”. Not a single translation of the two words in Strong’s Blue Letter Bible (great resource) combines the two words to make “catholic”.

Here is the link for you to this great tool: blueletterbible.org/search.cfm

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

THAT word is not in the extant Greek copies that we have. It is a formation of a word from the two words “kata” and “holos” that actually are the words in the Greek version and mean “throughout all”. Not a single translation of the two words in Strong’s Blue Letter Bible (great resource) combines the two words to make “catholic”.

Here is the link for you to this great tool: blueletterbible.org/search.cfm

I provided the translations from Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries. Now, I’ll explain it again for you, since you evidently are having such a hard time understanding. The term Catholic was DERIVED from those words used in the verse. Through all = universal, get it?

 

[I_Fortuna]

Hi,
Anglicans are protestant and Catholic

I love being Roman Catholic and not all churches are protestant but most are a result of a split off from the Anglican and Lutheran churches.

Mormons, Jehovah WItness, and AOG (Assembly of God) are different.

Many lies have been perpetrated by protestant churches regarding the Catholic faith. This is something we as Catholics, IMHO, need to set right at every opportunity.

Some people have all manner of excuses for putting down the Catholic church and most have never even been to see for themselves. I hope this answer helps.

 

[larkin31]

I provided the translations from Strong’s Hebrew and Greek Dictionaries. Now, I’ll explain it again for you, since you evidently are having such a hard time understanding. The term Catholic was DERIVED from those words used in the verse. Through all = universal, get it?

I have had no trouble understanding you. I simply prefer more direct answers. This is one of the clearest and most direct answers you have yet provided on this topic. Thank you. Everyone can see that we are in full agreement on this now. Tweety asked this question several pages back, ironically…

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I have had no trouble understanding you. I simply prefer more direct answers. This is one of the clearest and most direct answers you have yet provided on this topic. Thank you. Everyone can see that we are in full agreement on this now. Tweety asked this question several pages back, ironically…

I know tweety asked it a few pages back, but 1beleevr asked it again. By the way, if you read back through the pages, you’ll see I have repeatedly said that the term was DERIVED from the Greek terms used.

 

[larkin31]

I know tweety asked it a few pages back, but 1beleevr asked it again. By the way, if you read back through the pages, you’ll see I have repeatedly said that the term was DERIVED from the Greek terms used.

For the record, your first reply above begins “It’s found in the Greek Interlinear…” which is a false statement. “It” is NOT “found” in the Greek text from Acts 9, nor anywhere else in the Greek copies of scripture.

Only in your last line, after much etymology, do you include the statement about the derived word.

I prefer the more direct and accurate answer to the question, which was very clear to me after a quick reading in Strongs: “No, the Greek word for “Catholic” is not found in the earliest copies of scripture, but its two root words that mean “through” and “all” are found in close proximity in Acts 9:31.”

 

[1beleevr]

Hi,
Anglicans are protestant and Catholic

I love being Roman Catholic and not all churches are protestant but most are a result of a split off from the Anglican and Lutheran churches.

Mormons, Jehovah WItness, and AOG (Assembly of God) are different.

Many lies have been perpetrated by protestant churches regarding the Catholic faith. This is something we as Catholics, IMHO, need to set right at every opportunity.

Some people have all manner of excuses for putting down the Catholic church and most have never even been to see for themselves. I hope this answer helps.

And I really LOVE being nondenominational(Yippee!) And I believe that Christianity is not a religion. Religion is man’s attempt to get back to God(since the fall… Garden of Eden). Christianity, on the other hand is a relationship WITH God, through His only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ! And let me tell you, there are many lies perpetrated about noncatholics.I have been to a few services at catholic churches, including funerals, and had no idea what was going on I guess they were speaking in Latin! I understand that catholics are pro-life(as I am) and anti abortion(ditto), and against birth control. I have mixed emotions about that subject, since it is not specifically addressed in the Bible. I know of at least 5(five) catholic friends whomopenly admit that they are currently having affairs, three of them have fathered children with other women while married to their wives. And a catholic co-worker gives up alcohol for Lent, but then has a big beer blast on Easter Sunday; with all attendees getting wasted! I am quite certain that these people I know, are not a representation of the average catholic, but it does make you wonder

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

For the record, your first reply above begins “It’s found in the Greek Interlinear…” which is a false statement. “It” is NOT “found” in the Greek text from Acts 9, nor anywhere else in the Greek copies of scripture.

Only in your last line, after much etymology, do you include the statement about the derived word.

I prefer the more direct and accurate answer to the question, which was very clear to me after a quick reading in Strongs: “No, the Greek word for “Catholic” is not found in the earliest copies of scripture, but its two root words that mean “through” and “all” are found in close proximity in Acts 9:31.”

Let’s set something straight for everyone following this to consider. I am here seeking, and sharing to the best of my knowledge, God’s truth in it’s fullness. As I’ve pointed out numerous times, you only challenge Catholicism and identifty yourself as an ‘agnostic’ and ‘former Protestant’. What is your purpose here? Seriously, you only challenge Catholicism, yet Protestantism didn’t provide you truth enough to remove doubts for you.

As I said, read back through my posts. You don’t have too, I’ll post a part of my original post to show you, I have always said ‘derived’.

Catholic is an adjective derived from the Greek adjective καθολικός (katholikos), meaning “universal”.

This is my last post to you. You are only ‘twisting’ my words for no other reason than to get a ‘reaction’. You’ll have to find someone else to ‘amuse’ yourself. THAT PASSAGE, I USED, DID COME FROM THE GREEK INTERLINEAR. I WAS NOT SPEAKING ABOUT THE TERM ‘CATHOLIC’, but then you probably already know that. I do not make false statements and do not appreciate your insinuation that I am a liar.

I sincerely hope and pray you can find the truth everyone needs to be worthy of the promises of Christ.

 

[Nicea325]

I have had no trouble understanding you. I simply prefer more direct answers. This is one of the clearest and most direct answers you have yet provided on this topic. Thank you. Everyone can see that we are in full agreement on this now. Tweety asked this question several pages back, ironically…

It is very simple,why such a fuss over a simple term as Catholic? It simply means universal and used as an adjective describing the type of Christians.

There exists: Lutheran Christians,Baptist Christians, Methodist Christians,etc,etc

 

[larkin31]

This is my last post to you.

Fine. Your prerogative.

You are only ‘twisting’ my words for no other reason than to get a ‘reaction’. You’ll have to find someone else to ‘amuse’ yourself.

Wrong.

THAT PASSAGE, I USED, DID COME FROM THE GREEK INTERLINEAR. I WAS NOT SPEAKING ABOUT THE TERM ‘CATHOLIC’

Then you need to be clearer. He asked you where the word “Catholic” (in Greek) was in the Bible. You reply, “It’s in the Greek Interlinear…” What else could the “it” mean? What other “it” could you possibly have been referring to?

I do not make false statements and do not appreciate your insinuation that I am a liar

Perhaps, but you argue from very precise citations, you ask others for specifics, but you become hot under the collar when the same is done to you when you write negligently regarding the truth. Sorry, but you ask for it.

I sincerely hope and pray you can find the truth everyone needs to be worthy of the promises of Christ.

Thanks.