I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[Jimmy_B]

List of Popes
Continued from last post -

Benedict IX (1047-48)
Damasus II (1048)
St. Leo IX (1049-54)
Victor II (1055-57)
Stephen X (1057-58)
Nicholas II (1058-61) Opposed by Benedict X, antipope (1058)
Alexander II (1061-73) Opposed by Honorius II, antipope (1061-1072)
St. Gregory VII (1073-85) Gregory and the following three popes were opposed by Guibert (“Clement III”), antipope (1080-1100)
Blessed Victor III (1086-87)
Blessed Urban II (1088-99)
Paschal II (1099-1118) Opposed by Theodoric (1100), Aleric (1102) and Maginulf (“Sylvester IV”, 1105-1111), antipopes (1100)
Gelasius II (1118-19) Opposed by Burdin (“Gregory VIII”), antipope (1118)
Callistus II (1119-24)
Honorius II (1124-30) Opposed by Celestine II, antipope (1124)
Innocent II (1130-43) Opposed by Anacletus II (1130-1138) and Gregory Conti (“Victor IV”) (1138), antipopes (1138)
Celestine II (1143-44)
Lucius II (1144-45)
Blessed Eugene III (1145-53)
Anastasius IV (1153-54)
Adrian IV (1154-59)
Alexander III (1159-81) Opposed by Octavius (“Victor IV”) (1159-1164), Pascal III (1165-1168), Callistus III (1168-1177) and Innocent III (1178-1180), antipopes
Lucius III (1181-85)
Urban III (1185-87)
Gregory VIII (1187)
Clement III (1187-91)
Celestine III (1191-98)
Innocent III (1198-1216)
Honorius III (1216-27)
Gregory IX (1227-41)
Celestine IV (1241)
Innocent IV (1243-54)
Alexander IV (1254-61)
Urban IV (1261-64)
Clement IV (1265-68)
Blessed Gregory X (1271-76)
Blessed Innocent V (1276)
Adrian V (1276)
John XXI (1276-77)
Nicholas III (1277-80)
Martin IV (1281-85)
Honorius IV (1285-87)
Nicholas IV (1288-92)
St. Celestine V (1294)
Boniface VIII (1294-1303)
Blessed Benedict XI (1303-04)

 

[Jimmy_B]

Clement V (1305-14)
John XXII (1316-34) Opposed by Nicholas V, antipope (1328-1330)
Benedict XII (1334-42)
Clement VI (1342-52)
Innocent VI (1352-62)
Blessed Urban V (1362-70)
Gregory XI (1370-78)
Urban VI (1378-89) Opposed by Robert of Geneva (“Clement VII”), antipope (1378-1394)
Boniface IX (1389-1404) Opposed by Robert of Geneva (“Clement VII”) (1378-1394), Pedro de Luna (“Benedict XIII”) (1394-1417) and Baldassare Cossa (“John XXIII”) (1400-1415), antipopes
Innocent VII (1404-06) Opposed by Pedro de Luna (“Benedict XIII”) (1394-1417) and Baldassare Cossa (“John XXIII”) (1400-1415), antipopes
Gregory XII (1406-15) Opposed by Pedro de Luna (“Benedict XIII”) (1394-1417), Baldassare Cossa (“John XXIII”) (1400-1415), and Pietro Philarghi (“Alexander V”) (1409-1410), antipopes
Martin V (1417-31)
Eugene IV (1431-47) Opposed by Amadeus of Savoy (“Felix V”), antipope (1439-1449)
Nicholas V (1447-55)
Callistus III (1455-58)
Pius II (1458-64)
Paul II (1464-71)
Sixtus IV (1471-84)
Innocent VIII (1484-92)
Alexander VI (1492-1503)
Pius III (1503)
Julius II (1503-13)
Leo X (1513-21)
Adrian VI (1522-23)
Clement VII (1523-34)
Paul III (1534-49)
Julius III (1550-55)
Marcellus II (1555)
Paul IV (1555-59)
Pius IV (1559-65)
St. Pius V (1566-72)
Gregory XIII (1572-85)
Sixtus V (1585-90)
Urban VII (1590)
Gregory XIV (1590-91)

 

[Jimmy_B]

Innocent IX (1591)
Clement VIII (1592-1605)
Leo XI (1605)
Paul V (1605-21)
Gregory XV (1621-23)
Urban VIII (1623-44)
Innocent X (1644-55)
Alexander VII (1655-67)
Clement IX (1667-69)
Clement X (1670-76)
Blessed Innocent XI (1676-89)
Alexander VIII (1689-91)
Innocent XII (1691-1700)
Clement XI (1700-21)
Innocent XIII (1721-24)
Benedict XIII (1724-30)
Clement XII (1730-40)
Benedict XIV (1740-58)
Clement XIII (1758-69)
Clement XIV (1769-74)
Pius VI (1775-99)
Pius VII (1800-23)
Leo XII (1823-29)
Pius VIII (1829-30)
Gregory XVI (1831-46)
Blessed Pius IX (1846-78)
Leo XIII (1878-1903)
St. Pius X (1903-14)

Benedict XV (1914-22) Biographies of Benedict XV and his successors will be added at a later date
Pius XI (1922-39)
Pius XII (1939-58)
Blessed John XXIII (1958-63)
Paul VI (1963-78)
John Paul I (1978)
John Paul II (1978-2005)
Benedict XVI (2005—)

 

[Jimmy_B]

The point about an unbroken chain from the Apostles to today, is what most noncatholics have trouble believing! There really is no credible proof, other than oral tradition!

Hello 1beleevr,

I posted a list of all of the Popes from Saint Peter, to Pope Benedict XVI, with links. This information came from the Catholic Encyclopedia - New Advent online. This is the generally accepted historical list of Catholic Popes. There are many other sites, including non-Catholic sites, which also list these same Popes.

If this isn’t a record of the unbroken Apostolic Succession, “unbroken chain”, then what is?

 

[larkin31]

The List of Popes

See also POPE, PAPAL ELECTIONS, ELECTION OF THE POPE.

St. Peter (32-67)
St. Linus (67-76)
St. Anacletus (Cletus) (76-88)
St. Clement I (88-97)
St. Evaristus (97-105)
St. Alexander I (105-115)
St. Sixtus I (115-125) Also called Xystus I
St. Telesphorus (125-136)
St. Hyginus (136-140)
St. Pius I (140-155)
St. Anicetus (155-166)
St. Soter (166-175)
St. Eleutherius (175-189)
St. Victor I (189-199)
St. Zephyrinus (199-217)
St. Callistus I (217-22) Callistus and the following three popes were opposed by St. Hippolytus, antipope (217-236)
St. Urban I (222-30)
St. Pontain (230-35)
St. Anterus (235-36)
St. Fabian (236-50)
St. Cornelius (251-53) Opposed by Novatian, antipope (251)
St. Lucius I (253-54)
St. Stephen I (254-257)
St. Sixtus II (257-258)
St. Dionysius (260-268)
St. Felix I (269-274)
St. Eutychian (275-283)
St. Caius (283-296) Also called Gaius
St. Marcellinus (296-304)
St. Marcellus I (308-309)
St. Eusebius (309 or 310)
St. Miltiades (311-14)
St. Sylvester I (314-35)
St. Marcus (336)
St. Julius I (337-52)
Liberius (352-66) Opposed by Felix II, antipope (355-365)
St. Damasus I (366-83) Opposed by Ursicinus, antipope (366-367)
St. Siricius (384-99)
St. Anastasius I (399-401)
St. Innocent I (401-17)
St. Zosimus (417-18)
St. Boniface I (418-22) Opposed by Eulalius, antipope (418-419)
St. Celestine I (422-32)
St. Sixtus III (432-40)
St. Leo I (the Great) (440-61)
St. Hilarius (461-68)
St. Simplicius (468-83)
St. Felix III (II) (483-92)
St. Gelasius I (492-96)
Anastasius II (496-98)
Continued on next post -

and you said you weren’t going to get into this…

 

[olds442]

I do not get It . If your a Catholic Christian why do you keep harasing others about becoming Catholic? I was a Catholic and I left the Church because of all of the child abuse and the sweeping of things under the Carpet. There is just to much power given to the Preist The Bishops and the Pope The only power anybody has is the power we allow them to have over us. As for myself I choose not to allow them to have power over me. Catholic apologist can scream and yell all they want about the power Parish Priest have. Fact of tthe matter is The Mr Madrids of the world make good money telling other what they should believe. The money Changer are getting wealthy from others Guilt. They sew their crop of guilt on the Radio and them Sell books to rid other of the guilt they themselves created

 

[1beleevr]

I agree too. I think it can often leave a sour taste in a protestant friend’s mouth when I tell them my honest beliefe about Catholicism, but I always impress upon them, that I don’t think it makes them any less of a wonderful Christian or child of God. If you do not believe, with full grace and a true heart, that the RCC is the church we believe it is, then you are obviously better suited to ministry in a different church, and God has made you to fulfill a role in that church

I have been blessed with the presence of and guidance by the Holy Spirit, in my 43 year walk with Christ! He has given me humility, compassion, a servant’s heart, and the patience and understanding to accept those who can sometimes be difficult! I love talking to people about Jesus, especially my 8 year old granddaughter! Because we are human, and have free will, we also have different opinions about things! This can be a good thing or a bad thing; depending on your point of view! Contrary to popular belief, I do not hate catholics, or anyone for that matter! God bless you, my sister in Christ!

 

[1beleevr]

Hello 1beleevr,

I posted a list of all of the Popes from Saint Peter, to Pope Benedict XVI, with links. This information came from the Catholic Encyclopedia - New Advent online. This is the generally accepted historical list of Catholic Popes. There are many other sites, including non-Catholic sites, which also list these same Popes.

If this isn’t a record of the unbroken Apostolic Succession, “unbroken chain”, then what is?

Quite an impressive list of catholic leaders But when it comes to “regular” priests, who do confession, and mass, where do they get their “power” to do this?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Quite an impressive list of catholic leaders But when it comes to “regular” priests, who do confession, and mass, where do they get their “power” to do this?

God set a hierarchy in the Church.

1Co 12:28 And God indeed hath set some in the church; first apostles, secondly prophets, thirdly doctors: after that miracles: then the graces of healings, helps, governments, kinds of tongues, interpretations of speeches.

Through the various offices, with authority, they appointed others.

Tit 1:5 For this cause I left thee in Crete: that thou shouldest set in order the things that are wanting and shouldest ordain priests in every city, as I also appointed thee

Scriptures provide descriptions for various positions.

1Ti 3:1 A faithful saying: If a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth good work.
1Ti 3:8 Deacons in like manner: chaste, not double tongued, not given to much wine, not greedy of filthy lucre:
1Ti 5:17 Let the priests that rule well be esteemed worthy of double honour: especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

There are more, I’m sure you’re also aware of.

 

[Jimmy_B]

I do not get It . If your a Catholic Christian why do you keep harasing others about becoming Catholic? I was a Catholic and I left the Church because of all of the child abuse and the sweeping of things under the Carpet. There is just to much power given to the Preist The Bishops and the Pope The only power anybody has is the power we allow them to have over us. As for myself I choose not to allow them to have power over me. Catholic apologist can scream and yell all they want about the power Parish Priest have. Fact of tthe matter is The Mr Madrids of the world make good money telling other what they should believe. The money Changer are getting wealthy from others Guilt. They sew their crop of guilt on the Radio and them Sell books to rid other of the guilt they themselves created

Hello olds442,

“The only power anybody has is the power we allow them to have over us.”

This sounds like you are describing a democracy… Christianity is not now, nor has it ever been a democracy. In other words, we don’t have a vote in the matters of faith and morals or a vote when it comes to any Christian truths. They are what they are and the truth never changes.

Off course, we have free-will, which includes the free-will to reject Christian truths and commit sin. We are also “free” to do as many have done before, which is to belong to a religion of own intellect, or a religion where we have God on our own terms and not on His terms but then, the number of people who would disagree with us regarding Christian beliefs, would be more than just the Catholic Church…

That’s why there exists today more than 36,000 different Protestant, non-Catholic Christian denominations and sub-sects of non-Catholic Christianity.

Read Acts 5:1-11 and tell me how this squares with your comment that, regarding the Church, “The only power anybody has is the power we allow them to have over us.”

Your Thoughts?

 

[1beleevr]

Hello olds442,

“The only power anybody has is the power we allow them to have over us.”

This sounds like you are describing a democracy… Christianity is not now, nor has it ever been a democracy. In other words, we don’t have a vote in the matters of faith and morals or a vote when it comes to any Christian truths. They are what they are and the truth never changes.

Off course, we have free-will, which includes the free-will to reject Christian truths and commit sin. We are also “free” to do as many have done before, which is to belong to a religion of own intellect, or a religion where we have God on our own terms and not on His terms but then, the number of people who would disagree with us regarding Christian beliefs, would be more than just the Catholic Church…

That’s why there exists today more than 36,000 different Protestant, non-Catholic Christian denominations and sub-sects of non-Catholic Christianity.

Read Acts 5:1-11 and tell me how this squares with your comment that, regarding the Church, “The only power anybody has is the power we allow them to have over us.”

Your Thoughts?

What are the trademarks of a democracy? Freedom, the right to choose where you live and work. Is Christianity an autocracy, anarchy, or what? Who’s right, who’s wrong? Just because I am nondenominational, does not mean I have God on my terms I strive to follow His will daily, seeking His guidance through prayer, and reading His inerrant Word! As promised, Jesus sent me (and all others) an Advocate,(the Holy Spirit), to give us direction and discernment. Hallelujah!

 

[Mikeoffaith]

Nah… but if you want some leftover lefse and liturgical-color-of-the-season jello, I have extra… Jah, you betcha’.

I have some left over lutefisk in the freezer if you want to come over for a potluck, doncha know.

 

[Jimmy_B]

What are the trademarks of a democracy? Freedom, the right to choose where you live and work. Is Christianity an autocracy, anarchy, or what? Who’s right, who’s wrong? Just because I am nondenominational, does not mean I have God on my terms I strive to follow His will daily, seeking His guidance through prayer, and reading His inerrant Word! As promised, Jesus sent me (and all others) an Advocate,(the Holy Spirit), to give us direction and discernment. Hallelujah!

“I strive to follow His will daily”

Hello 1beleevr,

I have no reason not to believe that in many ways you do follow God’s will.

However, do you believe that you have a democratic “vote” when is comes to right and wrong? You may be able to choose to behave a certain way but you can’t choose the rules.

They are determined by God.

If Christianity is a democracy (it‘s not), then does that mean that we can elect someone else to be God, if we disagree? Of course not, we can‘t “vote” for another God If we disagree with Him, but many do, by their actions and by rejecting Christian truths.

The problem is that the definition of “His will”, or “God’s will”, has a different meaning to so many different, non-Catholic, Christian denominations.

And, obviously, the definition of “God’s will” is different between Catholics and Protestants in many ways… not in every way… but in many ways…

For instance, as a Catholic, I believe that it is God’s will that I attend a Catholic Mass ever Sunday (keeping the Sabbath holy) and on Holy days and as a non-denominational Christian, you may not agree.

I also believe in all Seven Sacraments and the Real Presence of Christ in the Holy Eucharist and you may not.

So, how can two people, who have such differing views regarding Christian truths, both be right? They can’t both be right and the one who is wrong, or the one who knowingly rejects a Christian truth, is rejecting Christ Himself and is committing a serious sin…

Right?

Your thoughts

 

[Jimmy_B]

Quite an impressive list of catholic leaders But when it comes to “regular” priests, who do confession, and mass, where do they get their “power” to do this?

Starting from Jesus Christ, to St. Peter (1st Pope), “And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it” (Matthew 16:18). "…to all those Catholic Popes between St. Peter and today’s Catholic Pope, to the Bishops and Cardinal Bishops… to the Priests and Deacons and other Religious’ and the lay Catholics, receiving the Sacraments in an unbroken chain going all the way back to Jesus…

Jesus-Pope-Bishop- Priest-Us (1 billion+ Catholics)

Jesus passed down the Holy Spirit to St. Peter (1st Pope) and the Apostles, who in turn, passed it down to every Catholic, in an unbroken chain. Starting with Baptism, “the gateway Sacrament”, First Communion, Conformation, Holy Matrimony and so on…

Continuous contact with God’s Holy Spirit and his chosen servants, received from the Catholic Priests and Bishops, through the Sacraments from the beginning of our Catholic lives to the end of our Catholic lives… here on earth…
.
It’s all about authority, the unbroken chain and Apostolic Succession and the Holy Spirit going back to the founder of the Catholic Church - Jesus.

A Catholic life-

Infant Baptism-to-Funeral Mass and all the Sacraments in between.

Christ said He would never leave us!

This verse should help explain what I’m saying here -

Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”

Matthew 28:18-20

Your thoughts?

 

[larkin31]

It’s all about authority, the unbroken chain and Apostolic Succession and the Holy Spirit going back to the founder of the Catholic Church - Jesus.

Jesus also mocked and rebelled against authority. He even purposefully taunted it.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Jesus also mocked and rebelled against authority. He even purposefully taunted it.

That’s ok, He can do that because He is the authority. I don’t understand your point here.

 

[larkin31]

That’s ok, He can do that because He is the authority. I don’t understand your point here.

My point is that if religious authority were always meant to be followed, then we would not have had the life of Jesus. The same God was in charge before Jesus, and Jesus rebelled against his authority as passed down through Moses.

I disagree that “authority is everything” in Christianity. It is obviously more complicated than that.

 

[Jimmy_B]

My point is that if religious authority were always meant to be followed, then we would not have had the life of Jesus. The same God was in charge before Jesus, and Jesus rebelled against his authority as passed down through Moses.

I disagree that “authority is everything” in Christianity. It is obviously more complicated than that.

Hello** larkin31**,

In one sense I would agree that it is “more complicated than that” but on the other hand, I think that Pope Benedict XVI summed it up well, with the title of his first encyclical, "Deus Caritas Est“ or "God is Love.”

The short answer is that, God is love.

Here is the condensed version of Pope Benedict XVI’s first encyclical, "Deus Caritas Est“.

Here is the long version from the Vatican website.

However, If you read the Catholic Epistles and Paul’s letters, you will see that there was always an actual Christian religion, with a structure and a “Chain of Command”.

Authority and structure is and has always been in important aspect of Christianity.

**

Catholic Epistle

The name given to the Epistle of St. James, to that of St. Jude, to two Epistles of St. Peter and the first three of St. John, because, unlike the Epistles of St. Paul, they were addressed not to any particular person or church, but to the faithful generally after the manner of an Encyclical letter. Though addressed to particular persons the other two Epistles of St. John are also styled Catholic, because they have always been grouped with the epistles bearing that name.
**

Your thoughts?

 

[larkin31]

Hello** larkin31**,

In one sense I would agree that it is “more complicated than that” but on the other hand, I think that Pope Benedict XVI summed it up well, with the title of his first encyclical, "Deus Caritas Est“ or "God is Love.”

The short answer is that, God is love.

Here is the condensed version of Pope Benedict XVI’s first encyclical, "Deus Caritas Est“.

Thanks. I read this. I don’t see how it addresses my point about authority. My point is that the story of Jesus IS the story of a man who, in part, rebels against the religious authority on earth established by God through Moses and the prophets. And that without this rebellion, there would be no life of Jesus. The life of Jesus demonstrates both the value and the necessity of questioning–and at times opposing–established religious authority, even that of one’s own religion.

 

[PRmerger]

Thanks. I read this. I don’t see how it addresses my point about authority. My point is that the story of Jesus IS the story of a man who, in part, rebels against the religious authority on earth established by God through Moses and the prophets. And that without this rebellion, there would be no life of Jesus. The life of Jesus demonstrates both the value **and the necessity of questioning–**and at times opposing–established religious authority, even that of one’s own religion.

Yes, we must question.

But the point of questioning is to come to an understanding of Truth.

Thus, if someone tells us, say, “Divorce is not harmful to society”, we ought to question this and come to an understanding: “divorce is harmful to society” or “divorce is NOT harmful to society.” Which is true?