I don't get it...if you are a non-Catholic Christian, then why aren't you a Catholic Christian?

[Jimmy_B]

Pope Saint Clement I (The Fourth Catholic Pope)
Philippians 4:3
Yes, and I ask you also, my true yokemate, to help them, for they have struggled at my side in promoting the gospel, along with Clement and my other co-workers, whose names are in the book of life.

(Early Christian Writings online)
　
Clement of Rome, First Epistle (95 or 96 C.E.)
1Clem prologue:1
The Church of God which sojourneth in Rome to the Church of God which sojourneth in Corinth, to them which are called and sanctified by the will of God through our Lord Jesus Christ. Grace to you and peace from Almighty God through Jesus Christ be multiplied.

(Early Christian Writings online)
　
The Didache
The Lord’s Teaching Through the Twelve Apostles to the Nations.
Chapter 9. The Eucharist

“…so let Thy Church be gathered together from the ends of the earth into Thy kingdom; for Thine is the glory and the power through Jesus Christ for ever…”

(Early Christian Writings online)

• Believed to be from the first Apostolic Council (c.50 C.E.), described in Acts 15:30.

Acts 15:30
And so they were sent on their journey. Upon their arrival in Antioch they called the assembly together and delivered the letter.

 

[PRmerger]

Here’s a peculiar phenomenon I’ve found among non-believers. They have the peculiar conviction that they can reject the Scriptures (i.e. Jesus did not rise from the dead), yet inexplicably seize our Book and claim things about God that are only known because the Scriptures declared them so (i.e. Jesus stopped the stoning of an adulteress)!

See this Chesterton quote below:

The original 16th-century revolutionaries had the mysterious conviction that you could attack a procession of Catholic worshippers, knock the miter off the priest’s head, dash the Eucharist to the ground, burn the vestments, smash the images, and overturn the altar – yet inexplicably seize their Holy Book and declare it an infallible oracle. - G. K. Chesterton

(Similar paradigm, only applied to non-believers.)

 

[larkin31]

So you were saying Jesus says do as I say, not as I do, huh?

Yes, we can call the Pharisees “hypocrites” too.

I’m pretty sure we’re supposed to do that, too.

Yup, that, too.

Sr. Audrey taught me music in grade school.

And Sr. Mary Margaret was a principal!!

Our priests get called to do anointings on the Sabbath.

Yup.

Our priests have told us not to sell things inside the Church.

So, Larkin, where are the examples of Jesus telling us to do what he said but not what he did?

You’re mixing modern history with ancient. My claim was that he defied ancient authority. He healed on the Sabbath and was not supposed to. For example.

 

[larkin31]

Hi Larkin,

Jesus did not rebel against the authority established by God.

Yes, he did, to some degree. He called the Pharisees hypocrites. He healed on the Sabbath. He stopped the stoning of an adulteress.

All of this was done contrary to the wishes of those in established religious power, with the sanction of religious authorities under God.

 

[larkin31]

Authority of the Catholic Church

---

Matthew 16:17,18
Jesus said to him in reply, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father. And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.
Matthew 18:17,18
If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector. Amen, I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.
Matthew 28:18-20
Then Jesus approached and said to them, “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age.”
John 20:21-24
(Jesus) said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you.” And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the holy Spirit. Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained…”
1 Corinthians 11:23-28
For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you, that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread, and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.” In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.” For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes. Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. A person should examine himself, and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
Luke 10:16
“Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.”
　
SAINT IRENAEUS (115 AD)
Bishop of Lyons and Father of the Church

Early Christian writings of Saint Irenaeus
　
Book V.
“…Then I have pointed out the truth, and shown the preaching of the Church, which the prophets proclaimed (as I have already demonstrated), but which Christ brought to perfection, and the apostles have handed down, from whom the Church, receiving [these truths], and throughout all the world alone preserving them in their integrity (bene), has transmitted them to her sons.”

No one denies that there are statements in the NT about religious authority under Jesus and God. My point is to say that the NT is not ALL about authority, and that the life of Jesus himself demonstrates this quite clearly. Jesus also demonstrates the value of a thinking mind and kind heart and spirit that assesses and judges the religious authority of his day in order to criticize it where it merits criticism, to change it where it merits change, to rebuke it where it merits rebuke, and to honor it where it merits honoring. THAT is the example of Jesus’ life and teachings on this matter, it seems to me.

 

[PRmerger]

My claim was that he defied ancient authority. He healed on the Sabbath and was not supposed to. For example.

THIS was your claim, Larkin:

No, this case is very different and not ironic–not even to the child. There is no need for an analogy here; we can just discuss the actions of Jesus. If you want to say that he is exempt from his rule just because he is Jesus, well, fine, go ahead and say it. **Maybe it is simply, “Do as I say, not as I do.” **

Others seem to say here, “The rules don’t apply to God.” Maybe not. But that would have its own problems for apologists, I would imagine.

So what examples can you give, as per your claim, of Jesus saying, “Do as I say, not as I do”?

Ya know, on second thought, I know you’re not going to be to provide me with any examples to support your claim.

Let’s leave it at this: [SIGN1] Jesus did not say “do as I say, not as I do”.[/SIGN1] We are to follow his words and his example.

There was no “rebellion” of authority that we are to not follow as well. We’re not supposed to stone adulteresses; we can heal on the Sabbath. We can walk among lepers and the unclean. Just like Jesus.

 

[PRmerger]

Jesus also demonstrates the value of a thinking mind and kind heart and spirit that assesses and judges the religious authority of his day in order to criticize it where it merits criticism, to change it where it merits change, to rebuke it where it merits rebuke, and to honor it where it merits honoring. THAT is the example of Jesus’ life and teachings on this matter, it seems to me.

And THAT is very Catholic of you to say that, Larkin!

 

[larkin31]

THIS was your claim, Larkin:

So what examples can you give, as per your claim, of Jesus saying, “Do as I say, not as I do”?

Ya know, on second thought, I know you’re not going to be to provide me with any examples to support your claim.

Let’s leave it at this: [SIGN1] Jesus did not say “do as I say, not as I do”.[/SIGN1] We are to follow his words and his example.

There was no “rebellion” of authority that we are to not follow as well. We’re not supposed to stone adulteresses; we can heal on the Sabbath. We can walk among lepers and the unclean. Just like Jesus.

Then, it was not true for Jesus, that he was required to follow his religious rulers invested with power from the Christian God. My point, repeatedly, is to note that “authority is everything in Christianity” is a false generalization, easily contradicted by the life and teachings of Jesus.

 

[larkin31]

And THAT is very Catholic of you to say that, Larkin!

Excellent.

So “authority is” NOT “everything in Catholicism.”

 

[PRmerger]

Excellent.

So “authority is” NOT “everything in Catholicism.”

Yup. I agree with you. Authority is not everything in Catholicism.

Jesus is EVERYTHING in Catholicism. Everything he did. Everything he said.

Like not stoning adulteresses.

Like walking with lepers.

Like obeying our leaders.

 

[PRmerger]

Then, it was not true for Jesus, that he was required to follow his religious rulers invested with power from the Christian God. My point, repeatedly, is to note that “authority is everything in Christianity” is a false generalization, easily contradicted by the life and teachings of Jesus.

But you do agree that Jesus told us to obey our leaders and follow the commandments, yes?

And you do agree that when someone says “authority is everything” it’s not to be taken literally? It’s similar to the verse in Scripture that says “all have sinned”. Clearly, that’s not true, literally. ALL have not sinned.

 

[larkin31]

Yup. I agree with you. Authority is not everything in Catholicism.

Jesus is EVERYTHING in Catholicism. Everything he did. Everything he said.

Like not stoning adulteresses.

Like walking with lepers.

Like obeying our leaders.

Catholics are required to “follow our leaders”? Do you mean only religious leaders? Or other “leaders,” too?

 

[PRmerger]

Catholics are required to “follow our leaders”? Do you mean only religious leaders? Or other “leaders,” too?

We are to “give to Caesar”, yes? We are to give our “other” leaders the obedience they are due.

 

[larkin31]

But you do agree that Jesus told us to obey our leaders and follow the commandments, yes?

I already answered this. Yes.

And you do agree that when someone says “authority is everything” it’s not to be taken literally? It’s similar to the verse in Scripture that says “all have sinned”. Clearly, that’s not true, literally. ALL have not sinned.

No, I don’t agree. It was offered literally, in the same way that you offered “Jesus is everything.” It was meant sincerely, and completely. If you would like to qualify the claim and actually explain to what degree authority matters to Catholics, I would enjoy reading that. “Authority,” both in the life of Jesus and in the Catholic Church, are very intriguing concepts for me. I find “authority” to be both a blessing and a curse, typically, throughout history and in the interaction between humans and institutions. I am curious.

 

[larkin31]

We are to “give to Caesar”, yes? We are to give our “other” leaders the obedience they are due.

The whole nut here is in that qualifying phrase, that “they are due”.

 

[PRmerger]

and that the life of Jesus himself demonstrates this quite clearly. Jesus also demonstrates the value of a thinking mind and kind heart and spirit that assesses and judges the religious authority of his day in order to criticize it where it merits criticism, to change it where it merits change, to rebuke it where it merits rebuke, and to honor it where it merits honoring. THAT is the example of Jesus’ life and teachings on this matter, it seems to me.

Again, here is the peculiar conviction that one can take from the Scriptures something of Jesus’ life (“he judged the religious authority of his day”), but yet also reject something *else *from the Scriptures–like Jesus rising from the dead.

How does one know that Jesus “judged the religious authority of his day”? Because the Scriptures tell us.

Yet, the Scriptures also tell us Jesus rose from the dead. But, inexplicably, this claim is rejected.

 

[larkin31]

Again, here is the peculiar conviction that one can take from the Scriptures something of Jesus’ life (“he judged the religious authority of his day”), but yet also reject something *else *from the Scriptures–like Jesus rising from the dead.

How does one know that Jesus “judged the religious authority of his day”? Because the Scriptures tell us.

Yet, the Scriptures also tell us Jesus rose from the dead. But, inexplicably, this claim is rejected.

This is off topic. Don’t ask me questions if you don’t want my opinion. If you mean to say that agnostics have no place on this forum, then write the mods and complain. They can pm me if my presence and opinion are somehow against the rules.

 

[PRmerger]

This is off topic. Don’t ask me questions if you don’t want my opinion. If you mean to say that agnostics have no place on this forum, then write the mods and complain. They can pm me if my presence and opinion are somehow against the rules.

I’m just sayin’…

It’s peculiar and inexplicable how you claim “Jesus did _____” By what authority do you claim it? How do you know that “Jesus did _____”?

Because the CC told you so through the Scriptures!

Of course, Larkin, you are welcome to post here, dearest!

 

[theistgal]

I only rarely visit this forum anymore because of threads like this. Why so much antagonism towards non-Catholic Christians?

I am settled back into the Catholic Church now, for the rest of my life (please God!), but I have left more than once, and looking back, I realize it was necessary for me to be “outside” for a whlie, in order to see the whole picture more clearly.

Like Dorothy, sometimes we just can’t appreciate what’s in our own backyard till we’ve been out of it for a while.

 

[Jimmy_B]

Yup. I agree with you. Authority is not everything in Catholicism…Jesus is EVERYTHING in Catholicism…

Hello PRmerger,

I think we agree…

When I wrote authority is everything in Christianity, I meant it.

Christ gave His Catholic Church authority here on earth to “bind and loose” to forgive sins; to collect, translate and put together the Bible; to dispense the Holy Sacraments and so on.

Any authority that the Roman Catholic Church has, was clearly given to Her from Christ.

This is supported by the Catechism of the Catholic Church, Holy Scripture and the early writings of our Popes and Fathers of the Church.

I believe that SAINT IRENAEUS (115 AD), the Bishop of Lyons and Father of the Church sums it up well -

“…Then I have pointed out the truth, and shown the preaching of the Church, which the prophets proclaimed (as I have already demonstrated), but which Christ brought to perfection, and the apostles have handed down, from whom the Church, receiving [these truths], and throughout all the world alone preserving them in their integrity (bene), has transmitted them to her sons.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church

**1918 **“There is no authority except from God, and those authorities that exist have been instituted by God” (*Rom *13:1).

**883 **“The college or body of bishops has no authority unless united with the Roman Pontiff, Peter’s successor, as its head.” As such, this college has “supreme and full authority over the universal Church; but this power cannot be exercised without the agreement of the Roman Pontiff.”

**553 **Jesus entrusted a specific authority to Peter: “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven.” The “power of the keys” designates authority to govern the house of God, which is the Church. Jesus, the Good Shepherd, confirmed this mandate after his Resurrection: “Feed my sheep.” The power to “bind and loose” connotes the authority to absolve sins, to pronounce doctrinal judgements, and to make disciplinary decisions in the Church. Jesus entrusted this authority to the Church through the ministry of the apostles and in particular through the ministry of Peter, the only one to whom he specifically entrusted the keys of the kingdom.

**2238 **Those subject to authority should regard those in authority as representatives of God, who has made them stewards of his gifts: “Be subject for the Lord’s sake to every human institution. . . . Live as free men, yet without using your freedom as a pretext for evil; but live as servants of God.” Their loyal collaboration includes the right, and at times the duty, to voice their just criticisms of that which seems harmful to the dignity of persons and to the good of the community.

**2236 **The exercise of authority is meant to give outward expression to a just hierarchy of values in order to facilitate the exercise of freedom and responsibility by all. Those in authority should practice distributive justice wisely, taking account of the needs and contribution of each, with a view to harmony and peace. They should take care that the regulations and measures they adopt are not a source of temptation by setting personal interest against that of the community.

**2036 **The authority of the Magisterium extends also to the specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the Creator, is necessary for salvation. In recalling the prescriptions of the natural law, the Magisterium of the Church exercises an essential part of its prophetic office of proclaiming to men what they truly are and reminding them of what they should be before God.