I don't know who to vote for next year. Do I even have to vote?

[maryjk]

But I assume you don’t mind paying for JCats1’s high schooling?

Actually, I do.

Mainly because he didn’t make good use of the time in high school. He didn’t learn about paragraphs, run on sentences or grammar.

When college is “free,” people won’t care. And they will waste the time there, just like they do now in high school.

 

[JCats1]

Actually, I do.

Mainly because he didn’t make good use of the time in high school. He didn’t learn about paragraphs, run on sentences or grammar.

When college is “free,” people won’t care. And they will waste the time there, just like they do now in high school.

I’m actually in one of the most rigorous secondary school programs in the world. I’m also in the top 5% of my class of 508. He?!..I’m a she…
Anyways, look at Finland. College tuition is free for everyone and Finland ranks as one of the top education systems in the world. It’s also one of the most educated countries in the world.

Sorry for my supposedly poor sense of grammar. English wasn’t my first language. American teachers don’t really force grammar upon students as teachers in other countries do.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Actually, I do.

Mainly because he didn’t make good use of the time in high school.

But at the time you had to decide to pay for high school with public funds you don’t know who will do well and who will not. So are you in favor of ending public support for schools after 8th grade? Or 4th grade? Or do favor eliminating all public funding of schooling and emulating Uganda where only the rich can afford to send their kids to school because there is almost no public support for education? Universal public education is one of the factors that made our nation great. The reason I raised the question about high school was to focus attention on the similarities between high school and college. There was a time when public schooling ended in the 4th or 5th grade. Anyone who wanted education beyond that had to pay for it personally. Gradually we as a society came to realize the necessity of universal education to 12th grade. Now we are faced with further developments in the job market that make the necessity of post-high school education comparable to what high school was seen as a few decades ago. Consider that before dismissing public funding of college out of hand.

 

[porthos11]

All I’ll say to this is:

You don’t vote, you don’t complain.

I don’t care who you vote for, or whether he wins or loses. Just vote. If he wins and he screws up, you get to complain because you voted for him and he didn’t deliver. If he loses, and someone else screws up, you get to complain because you voted and he didn’t deliver. You also get to say “I told you so.”

But you don’t vote, you have no right to complain because you did not do your part.

So go out and vote.

And no, merely paying taxes doesn’t give you the right to complain either if you don’t vote.

 

[BChartowski]

I’m actually in one of the most rigorous secondary school programs in the world. I’m also in the top 5% of my class of 508. He?!..I’m a she…
Anyways, look at Finland. College tuition is free for everyone and Finland ranks as one of the top education systems in the world. It’s also one of the most educated countries in the world.

Sorry for my supposedly poor sense of grammar. English wasn’t my first language. American teachers don’t really force grammar upon students as teachers in other countries do.

I’m only going to name two taxes in Finland: the standard income tax and the municipal income tax. The middle class earner in Finland pays about 46% of their salary in base income tax. This is in addition to the municipal income tax that is anywhere from 15-20% of your income. This totals 51% of your income right off the bat. Without even mentioning the myriad other taxes. Let’s say you graduate your amazing free college and are lucky enough to get a job (Finland has over 10% unemployment). Let’s say that job pays the equivalent of $50,000 per year. Without even considering the VAT and other taxes you’re already at under $25,000 per year for your salary after just those two taxes.

Now, let’s take the alternative. Let’s say you make 50,000 a year in America. Let’s say the income tax rate is 0, which is what it should be. Your neighbor is down and out. Now, you’re able to give him 25,000 for a whole year to get him back on his feet, get a new job, go to college, whatever! You had a direct impact on someone’s life that cost the same as socialist Finland, but made a huge impact, and some person that reuses to work doesn’t get your money instead, which is what happens in Finland. Socialism, by its very nature is, at its best, nothing more than corruption. At least when your freely choose to give over 50% of your salary to someone you get to choose whether or not to give it to someone who needs it or someone who just wants to waste it.

As someone already said, free education is far from free. Don’t fall for the illusion of socialism.

 

[KevinAK]

What do you guys think about Bernie Sanders? Personally, I like him a lot. He said he’s going to try to make college tuition free! That’s something I care about because I’m going to college next year and the tuition for college is ridiculous, like more than 60k if you include housing and meals. I know Sanders is not pro-life and anti-gay marriage, so I’m really hesitating on my vote for him.

Bernie Sanders is lying when he says he going to make college tuition free If you don’t pay your tuition some else will have too.

 

[maryjk]

But at the time you had to decide to pay for high school with public funds you don’t know who will do well and who will not. So are you in favor of ending public support for schools after 8th grade?

Nope.

Which nullifies the rest of your questions.

 

[jediliz]

What do you guys think about Bernie Sanders? Personally, I like him a lot. He said he’s going to try to make college tuition free! That’s something I care about because I’m going to college next year and the tuition for college is ridiculous, like more than 60k if you include housing and meals. I know Sanders is not pro-life and anti-gay marriage, so I’m really hesitating on my vote for him.

Very dangerous. He wants to give out free everything! Nothing is FREE. You can’t pay for college professors if college is “free”. And it creates a mentality towards deserving things without working for it. Too many people want an entitlement society.

And he’s pro abortion, most likely.

Very dangerous. Please research his statements on ALL THE ISSUES - LIFE ISSUES ade top priority!

 

[exnihilo]

Another reason to vote:

You have no right to complain if you haven’t voted.

Actually it is the opposite. If you vote you are tacitly affirming the results of the election. If your guy doesn’t win you have no right to complain. If your guy wins but does things you don’t like you have no right to complain. You have no right because you affirmed the system. I however have every right to complain because I reject the system itself and my not voting is an affirmation of that.

Also the line of thinking you are advocating would equally apply to the communist countries where voting is an integral part of the system. Did Christians dragged to the gulags have no right to complain if they didn’t vote?

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Nope.

Which nullifies the rest of your questions.

Good. So we agree that public eduction through 12th grade, at least, is a good idea. In that case the question is why stop there? Why not include 2 years of community college or trade school or something beyond high school? It seems an arbitrary place to cut off public education. Keep in mind that at the time public education was extended to include 12th grade, high school was in the same position as community college is now. There are very few long-term jobs you can get now with nothing but a high-school education. Gone are the days of high-paid unskilled labor on the assembly line. Why shouldn’t we consider public-paid education beyond high school?

 

[maryjk]

Good. So we agree that public eduction through 12th grade, at least, is a good idea. In that case the question is why stop there? Why not include 2 years of community college or trade school or something beyond high school? It seems an arbitrary place to cut off public education. Keep in mind that at the time public education was extended to include 12th grade, high school was in the same position as community college is now. There are very few long-term jobs you can get now with nothing but a high-school education. Gone are the days of high-paid unskilled labor on the assembly line. Why shouldn’t we consider public-paid education beyond high school?

Why stop at community college? Why not a 4 year degree? Or a Master’s? Or for that matter, why shouldn’t everyone get a PhD? Just take more and more money from those that are working to pay for it.

For me, I see that at the end of 12th grade you are an adult. Or most are. There is a difference between educating a child vs. an adult. We house children that are homeless, if we know about them. We ensure children are fed, again, if we know about them. When you become an adult, you are responsible for your own housing and food. You are also responsible for your own continued education. We have to allow people to grow up. The government shouldn’t be holding everyone’s hand through life.

And there are plenty of jobs that don’t require a degree. Every week in the paper I see advertisements for HVAC techs and plumbers. Neither require a degree, both are long term jobs.

People still need houses built. They need floors and carpet installed. None of those require a degree. And all can be a long term job.

 

[exnihilo]

Good. So we agree that public eduction through 12th grade, at least, is a good idea. In that case the question is why stop there? Why not include 2 years of community college or trade school or something beyond high school? It seems an arbitrary place to cut off public education. Keep in mind that at the time public education was extended to include 12th grade, high school was in the same position as community college is now. There are very few long-term jobs you can get now with nothing but a high-school education.

I’m against government education for the very thing you point out. Since government got involved not only has the quality of education decreased but due to oversupply a man needs to go to school longer to acquire certain jobs. None of this is surprising.

Gone are the days of high-paid unskilled labor on the assembly line. Why shouldn’t we consider public-paid education beyond high school?

This is a complex issue. There are probably less skilled labor jobs in part because automation has replaced manpower. Also assembly line jobs are not the most fun. Some of those kinds of jobs have moved to other countries with cheaper labor. But there is also the influx of cheap immigrant labor that drives down labor costs.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I’m against government education for the very thing you point out. Since government got involved not only has the quality of education decreased…

Really? When was this golden age of education when we had higher quality education and it was all private?

…but due to oversupply a man needs to go to school longer to acquire certain jobs.

So, the solution is to reduce the supply of educated people so that employers have to settle for the less educated because that’s all they can get?

This is a complex issue. There are probably less skilled labor jobs in part because automation has replaced manpower.

Quite true.

Also assembly line jobs are not the most fun.

Then you should be glad that those days are gone.

Some of those kinds of jobs have moved to other countries with cheaper labor. But there is also the influx of cheap immigrant labor that drives down labor costs.

The jobs that cheap immigrant labor drives down are not generally the jobs that higher education prepares you for. So rather than fighting for the chance to cut chicken parts all day long we should be fighting for the chance to get an education that allows us to manage that chicken plant.

 

[DaveBj]

All I’ll say to this is:

You don’t vote, you don’t complain.

I don’t care who you vote for, or whether he wins or loses. Just vote. If he wins and he screws up, you get to complain because you voted for him and he didn’t deliver. If he loses, and someone else screws up, you get to complain because you voted and he didn’t deliver. You also get to say “I told you so.”

But you don’t vote, you have no right to complain because you did not do your part.

So go out and vote.

And no, merely paying taxes doesn’t give you the right to complain either if you don’t vote.

Sorry, but your assertion is wrong. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution gives citizens the right to complain, without any restriction based on whether or not they vote.

Edit: Actually, I mis-stated that. The First Amendment does not “give” citizens the right to complain. That right is pre-existent, and all that the First Amendment does is to recognize that right.

 

[JoeFreedom]

FROM THE CCC:

2425 The Church has rejected the totalitarian and atheistic ideologies associated in modern times with “communism” or “socialism.” She has likewise refused to accept, in the practice of “capitalism,” individualism and the absolute primacy of the law of the marketplace over human labor.207 Regulating the economy solely by centralized planning perverts the basis of social bonds; regulating it solely by the law of the marketplace fails social justice, for “there are many human needs which cannot be satisfied by the market.”208 Reasonable regulation of the marketplace and economic initiatives, in keeping with a just hierarchy of values and a view to the common good, is to be commended. (676, 1886)

Socialism and communism in any form are antithetical to God’s teachings. Capitalism is most inline with what God would want for us as it provides each person an opportunity to will his own choices, not forced by some central planning autocratic government entity or entities. Charity, love and goodness cannot be forced by someone else. It must be chosen by that person, and him or her alone. Capitalism gets a bad rap because too many do not understand that evil exists and evil penetrates into good systems and makes such systems look undesirable. Capitalism has provided more good to more people than any other system in the world throughout history. Yes, there are many people who choose the “evil” through greed, manipulation, distortion, and other foul ways, but these free will choices of those individuals should not spoil the system itself.

Communism and socialism have caused more deaths in the last 100 or so years than all religious wars combined. This is a simple fact. One might argue that if we can just get communism to work the way it is supposed to work then we can rid the world of greed, lust and other evils. But the problem exists that evil will never go away. You cannot be victorious over evil through force (except through just wars), only God’s love, which cannot be forced, can be victorious over evil. This is why the central planning and use of force to make others be “equal” in communism and socialism will never work

And because of man’s fallen nature and his concupiscence, just one single person in a commune who chooses to work harder than everyone else would upset the entire balance. This is another reason why communism can never work. Socialism can never work either and we are seeing the effects of this in Greece, and other European nations. When everyone claims a “greater right and equality” through force of others because they deserve it, a nation will crumble under it’s own weight.

Capitalism works when it rights itself with God, and we choose to forego the evilness in our hearts, and work towards charity, self-denial and other goodness. When we are free from vices and choose God’s will, we are free to live a life where we choose His will over ours, and that can only come through a free society. Socialism and communism are not free societies.

 

[exnihilo]

Really? When was this golden age of education when we had higher quality education and it was all private?

I’m not claiming there is some golden age, whatever that would mean. I’m just saying the quality of education has declined drastically.

So, the solution is to reduce the supply of educated people so that employers have to settle for the less educated because that’s all they can get

The solution to any oversupply is to reduce supply. Employers will not settle for less. They’ll start dropping ridiculous degree requirements for basic jobs. Oversupply of education has lead men to seek more advanced degrees to differentiate themselves from others.

The jobs that cheap immigrant labor drives down are not generally the jobs that higher education prepares you for. So rather than fighting for the chance to cut chicken parts all day long we should be fighting for the chance to get an education that allows us to manage that chicken plant.

I agree cutting chicken doesn’t require an advanced education. The problem is that men who do have advanced education have to get jobs cutting chickens because there are not enough other jobs. It is true that for an individual he might want to get more education because it opens up jobs for him. But that assumes he is capable of acquiring advanced education and of any jobs that would open up. Not everyone is a manager. Some folks are worker bees. The supply of worker bees doesn’t solely exist in foreign countries. We have plenty of native men who should be worker bees. I of course assume that men have different capabilities and limitations. This seems like a naturally obvious conclusion but I am aware some dispute this.

 

[porthos11]

Sorry, but your assertion is wrong. The First Amendment to the U.S. Constitution gives citizens the right to complain, without any restriction based on whether or not they vote.

Edit: Actually, I mis-stated that. The First Amendment does not “give” citizens the right to complain. That right is pre-existent, and all that the First Amendment does is to recognize that right.

Nope. Vote.

Or you don’t get to complain about how bad your elected officials are. You did not do your part.

All this talk about “rights” without corresponding responsibilities.

No, I’m not talking about legitimate grievances or speaking out against rights being trampled on, the right to which are extended to even non-citizens. I’m talking about people who post on social media or to their friends or whatever, saying “Obama sucks” or “Bush is dumb” whenever they enact policies they don’t agree with (but don’t violate any rights), without having done their part to at least try to place the right person in office.

So I’m not repentant about my comment. For example, I absolutely hate the policies laid down by the Alberta NDP government. They don’t trample down my rights, but I hate them and disagree with them and hope to the high heavens they are defeated in just over three years. And I will complain because I voted against them. Had I not done so, I would rightfully have to shut up, because I did not do my part.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

I’m not claiming there is some golden age, whatever that would mean. I’m just saying the quality of education has declined drastically.

And you claim it is due to government. So if it has declined drastically, then going backwards in time we should see a time when it was much better. When was that time?

The solution to any oversupply is to reduce supply. Employers will not settle for less. They’ll start dropping ridiculous degree requirements for basic jobs.

Are you dictating to the employers now what they should consider a desired qualification for employment? They have their reasons and they don’t have to justify those reasons to you.

Oversupply of education has lead men to seek more advanced degrees to differentiate themselves from others.

…which has always happened. Nothing new there.

I agree cutting chicken doesn’t require an advanced education. The problem is that men who do have advanced education have to get jobs cutting chickens because there are not enough other jobs.

You aren’t going to make me feel sorry for the educated man who has to cut chicken over the uneducated man who can do nothing but cut chicken.

It is true that for an individual he might want to get more education because it opens up jobs for him. But that assumes he is capable of acquiring advanced education and of any jobs that would open up. Not everyone is a manager. Some folks are worker bees. The supply of worker bees doesn’t solely exist in foreign countries. We have plenty of native men who should be worker bees. I of course assume that men have different capabilities and limitations. This seems like a naturally obvious conclusion but I am aware some dispute this.

I do dispute that we are living up to our potential. Cutting back on education is not the way to a higher standard of living for our nation.

 

[JCats1]

I guess I realize that I’m going to vote. But now the question is who? I will never ever vote for Trump, so he’s out.

 

[JCats1]

I’m not claiming there is some golden age, whatever that would mean. I’m just saying the quality of education has declined drastically.

The solution to any oversupply is to reduce supply. Employers will not settle for less. They’ll start dropping ridiculous degree requirements for basic jobs. Oversupply of education has lead men to seek more advanced degrees to differentiate themselves from others.

I agree cutting chicken doesn’t require an advanced education. The problem is that men who do have advanced education have to get jobs cutting chickens because there are not enough other jobs. It is true that for an individual he might want to get more education because it opens up jobs for him. But that assumes he is capable of acquiring advanced education and of any jobs that would open up. Not everyone is a manager. Some folks are worker bees. The supply of worker bees doesn’t solely exist in foreign countries. We have plenty of native men who should be worker bees. I of course assume that men have different capabilities and limitations. This seems like a naturally obvious conclusion but I am aware some dispute this.

I think the main problem we have to be looking at is our education “problem” in the U.S. Compared to other nations, the U.S falls behind on test scores. Education in the U.S is something that only the people who have money benefit from the most. I read a book called, A Path Appears by Nicholas D. Kristof and Sheryl WuDunn and it stated that people have a harder time getting out of the poverty cycle, unlike most nations around the world. A large part of it is because a quality education is very expensive; studies show that a higher IQ is correlated with a higher social status. I am seeing this in schools across my city where the top students in the class have parents who are doctors, lawyers, engineers, or any professional. These families can afford tutoring services and test-prep materials for their children.
We can see this in college admissions as well. A lot of colleges don’t really want to give out financial aid because it causes a burden on their economic side. Colleges tend to favor students who have “connections” and a higher income, which is why there is a higher acceptance rate among Early Decision applicants. Yes, there are stories of students that are of low income and are high achievers that get into top colleges with full rides, however, there are not enough success stories of the sort.
I personally know someone who got into Stanford from my school. She was a high achiever and she deserved the acceptance. However, she couldn’t go because her parents could not afford the school. Stanford doesn’t really give out a lot of aid. My friend was in the middle class and FAFSA only gave her a minimal amount. I, myself, wanted to apply to NYU, but I decided against it because it’s too expensive and NYU tends to be very stingy with financial aid. FAFSA wouldn’t really help me as well, because my family is in the middle class.
If college tuition were made free, the people who actually want to go to college would get the chance. For those saying that professors won’t get paid, what about European college professors? I’m pretty sure they get paid. There is no certainty that everyone will go to college because some people will choose not to. American society has this “anti-education” sentiment that other countries don’t have and it needs to change. People don’t realize the value of education and many take it for granted. However, there are many, that I know, who want an education, who want professional degrees, and who want to have a better life for themselves.