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Eddie_Mac
Guest
People think they can vote out the criminals that occupy the government. Voting put them there. Voting isn’t going to change anything. It doesn’t matter who you vote for. Once they are there they are all the same.
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phil_at_dayboro
Guest
Particularly if you have a Gerrymander system which I’m led to belive is commonplace in the U S
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b_ulmen
Guest
Prior to 1971, and decline picked up speed after 1979 (establishment of Dept of Ed).
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b_ulmen
Guest
voting is a right. We are under no obligation or requirement to exercise any right at any time. We have the right to own firearms, we are not required to do so and there is no entity that can impose such a requirement. No entity can impose a requirement that we go cast a ballot.
Unless some third party candidate steps up to offer an alternative, I’m abstaining in the next Presidential election. On the left theres a corrupt liar and a socialist - none good for our nation. On the right there’s weak establishment folks and the bombastic Trump (who btw has sound ideas, but is too much of a rodeo clown and has not demonstrated any modicrum of statesmanship).
The government schools should teach more Grover Cleveland and less Karl Marx. I’m paying for it, so why don’t they listen? Oh, thats right, its government.
Unless some third party candidate steps up to offer an alternative, I’m abstaining in the next Presidential election. On the left theres a corrupt liar and a socialist - none good for our nation. On the right there’s weak establishment folks and the bombastic Trump (who btw has sound ideas, but is too much of a rodeo clown and has not demonstrated any modicrum of statesmanship).
The government schools should teach more Grover Cleveland and less Karl Marx. I’m paying for it, so why don’t they listen? Oh, thats right, its government.
No, I strongly disagree. You must vote, and vote for the lesser evil if given the choice between two evils.
Again, here’s this thing about “expressing opinion” in the same breath as “rights” over doing one’s duty as if rights are the be-all and end-all of the American existence. Your duty as a citizen is to do your part, no matter how small, in trying to form the government you need. Voting is not about “expressing opinions”. It’s about actively trying to build something. By refusing to vote, you abandon this duty to those who would build it in another, and possibly wrong manner.
The Catholic Church has held that the exercise of the right to vote is morally binding, so to intentionally fail to do so is likely at least venially sinful.
And if you don’t vote, and therefore didn’t do your part to at least work towards building the government you want, you will definitely get the government you deserve.
Again, here’s this thing about “expressing opinion” in the same breath as “rights” over doing one’s duty as if rights are the be-all and end-all of the American existence. Your duty as a citizen is to do your part, no matter how small, in trying to form the government you need. Voting is not about “expressing opinions”. It’s about actively trying to build something. By refusing to vote, you abandon this duty to those who would build it in another, and possibly wrong manner.
The Catholic Church has held that the exercise of the right to vote is morally binding, so to intentionally fail to do so is likely at least venially sinful.
And if you don’t vote, and therefore didn’t do your part to at least work towards building the government you want, you will definitely get the government you deserve.
Again, you are wrong. Voting is a right. To exercise that right is also a duty.
This is the teaching of the Catholic Church.
LeafByNiggle
Well-known member
The admonition by the Church to vote is best expressed in paragraph 2240 of the Catechism:
Submission to authority and co-responsibility for the common good make it morally obligatory to pay taxes, to exercise the right to vote, and to defend one’s country.
But if you take this to mean one must vote in every election possible, that would be a misinterpretation. For a comparison with another admonition, consider paragraphs 2443-2449 about the love for the poor and the duty to charity. These paragraphs do not imply that we are obligated to give everything we have to the poor. God will read our hearts and discern whether we have shirked our duty to the poor. Similarly with voting, God will read our hearts and determine if not voting in one election was part of a general abandonment of the duty to civic engagement. It is not our place to say if one’s response to any given election is or is not a sin.
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b_ulmen
Guest
Well then, let the hellfire and brimstone rain down upon me, because the church is wrong about the moral obligation to exercise rights. According to the Church’s use, it is then no longer a right but a requirement, a commandment if you will. I don’t see the church pushing for universal gun ownership, we have that right. Why do we not have a moral obligation to exercise that right? Wait nevermind, the quibbling and parsing would be too much.
Just one more example of the man-made church rules blurring the lines between what we’re commanded to do and what we (man) think we should do.
There is no conflict between right and duty. Often, something is both, especially because this is where the greater good is involved.
And no, the Church is not wrong.
We can only cite principles, not rule on every individual case.
I would consider that there are tons of poor people, and arguably tons of taxes.
Elections, especially national ones, are relatively infrequent.
Part of the duty to vote includes not only voting for the better person, but often defeating the worse one. Trump and Clinton, for example, are not equally evil. One is less evil than the other (not saying who, as I do not know or care). You have to vote to defeat the more evil one.
Take our own elections here. Conservative Stephen Harper is no pro-life activist. Liberal Justin Trudeau and NDP Thomas Mulcair have set party policies that require their caucuses to vote for abortion. The Conservative policy is to not legislate to regulate abortion (abortion laws are nonexistent in Canada), but leaves its caucus members free to vote according to their conscience. Further, the Conservative policy is to legislate against euthanasia, while the other two left-leaning parties have either voted to support it or hold it in a positive light.
So in Canada, I have three evil parties, a cowardly right-leaning one and two explicit pro-abortion left-leaning ones. What do I do?
I voted Conservative, because it’s the least evil of the three. It allows conscience votes on abortion and is against euthanasia. Not because I’m a fan of Stephen Harper, but because I needed to do what I could to defeat the two more evil parties. Had I not voted, I would have shirked my duty. My vote lost, but I did my part. My conscience is therefore clear. Had I not voted, I would have been complicit in Trudeau’s win. Despite my loss, I am not.
No two candidates are equally evil. One is always less evil than the other. Therefore there is never a reason to withhold a vote, even if just to try to defeat the worse one.
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phil_at_dayboro
Guest
View attachment 22727
You Must Vote ,End of Story,millions of people over the Generations have sacrificed their lives , so you can have the ability to debate over who you could vote for,
Let Not their Sacrifices not be in vain .
You Must Vote ,End of Story,millions of people over the Generations have sacrificed their lives , so you can have the ability to debate over who you could vote for,
Let Not their Sacrifices not be in vain .
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b_ulmen
Guest
It’s incredible the massive amount of support for supporting evil. I do not have a moral obligation to support evil. period.
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mary_bobo
Guest
This is how the founding fathers intended it to be. The Constitution states that those rights not given to the feds by that document are left to the states. IMO we would be much better off if we got back to that.
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mary_bobo
Guest
He hasn’t gotten the nomination yet. I share your disdain, but let’s wait and see what happens.
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exnihilo
Guest
So a man in communist Poland had to vote and if he didn’t he wasn’t helping build good government? That is what the communist party said. I worked with a guy who faced this. He purposefully didn’t vote. It was a statement that he disagreed with the whole system which limited your choice. He suffered some for this defiant act. I think he was right and brave.
His story got me thinking and it is one reason I don’t vote today. In my opinion we face the same worthless ‘choice’. The system wants you to vote. You can vote for anyone so long as you vote because any vote is a vote for the system. It is a pacifying act. It makes people think they are involved when they aren’t. The government will really start to worry when no one votes.
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AllieT
Guest
As a Catholic, I feel I have a moral obligation to always vote against pro-abortion candidates because abortion is the ultimate evil. Please do more research on Marxism/Communism. You will find greed and materialism in all systems - at least with Capitalism (that’s not corrupted by government policies), people are more free than in a government controlled system and are encouraged to be innovative, productive, and to do for themselves. Competition in a free market ultimately benefits the consumer.
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b_ulmen
Guest
The United States is a liberal democracy, governed by a Constitution you are so proud of, you would even cite it to foreigners like myself when talking about rights.
Poland and other Warsaw Pact countries were totalitarian governments where elections were a sham.
Is there really a comparison between the two systems?
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exnihilo
Guest
I am not proud of the constitution. It was an overthrow of a superior confederation which was actually successful in keeping down the power of the central government and not getting into wars. People tend to get a bit fetishistic about the constitution. It is just a piece of paper and thus has no causal power.
Of course there is a comparison between the two systems. A comparison does not mean complete equality. In this case I do think there are many similarities. The key simularity is not having any meaningful choice because those already in power use that power to effectively restrict choice.
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Eddie_Mac
Guest
The United States is a Constitutional Republic with a representative form of government.
At least it is supposed to be.
Right now it appears that no elected official has ever read the Constitution.
Furthermore, the voting majority are those voting themselves a government check, and a large number of voters are not even citizens.
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