I don't mean to start a war here........

[Gabriel_of_12]

Probably one of the most misinterpreted verses about divorce in the Bible is the following:

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Many people try to say that “saving for the cause of fornication” is Jesus giving permission to the husband of an adulterous wife to file for divorce. Jesus said no such thing. What he is saying is that if a husband divorces his wife, he makes her an adulterer–unless she ALREADY was an adulterer, in which case she makes herself an adulterer. That doesn’t mean that the husband has the right to divorce her! It just means that if he does divorce her, HE doesn’t make her an adulterer. However, Jesus commandment still remains: “Therefore what God hath put together, LET NO MAN PUT ASUNDER.” Divorce is as wicked as murder, and there is NO BIBLICAL GROUNDS FOR IT.

By the way, this is a Baptist, not a Catholic. Many Catholics consider Baptists to be protestants, but that’s not true because Baptists aren’t protesting the Catholic church because they were never in the Catholic church. As for the question on why do protestants allow for divorce and remarriage, I’m as lost as you are. Saying you can sometimes understand the necessity for divorce is like saying you can sometimes understand the necessity for adultery.

I dont think a Catholic would argue with your statement about marriage and divorce. Except Jesus raised Marriage to a (sacred)sacrament, where now the Holy Spirit takes an active part in the Marriage.

True the american baptist church’s did not brake from the Catholic church, but your original founders broke from the Catholic church. And took with them these insights of Marriage to which you beautifully displayed here.

When this discussion about what God has joined together followed by and act of adultery. Reminds me of how God always remaining faithful to his covenant (Promise, oath) to his word. No matter how many times (I) man fails God; God never stops loving (me) man , his bride the Catholic church. History records man worshiping false god’s. This is an adultery act against God the husband of the bride (Church), Yet God provides mercy and forgiveness. This is how Marriage between a man and woman is to be in unending Love, no matter what circumstance arises in the marriage. I know it is easier said than done. The couple remaining faithful to God, prevents these evil acts from occurring.

Peace be with you

 

[mark_a]

Most conservative Protestants do not permit, or would not permit, at-will divorce, but in this regard they are in pretty much the same boat as Catholics: they can say what they want, people are still getting divorced.

In Protestant churches, who is the authority that denies or grants divorce?

 

[mark_a]

Probably one of the most misinterpreted verses about divorce in the Bible is the following:

But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.

Many people try to say that “saving for the cause of fornication” is Jesus giving permission to the husband of an adulterous wife to file for divorce. Jesus said no such thing. What he is saying is that if a husband divorces his wife, he makes her an adulterer–unless she ALREADY was an adulterer, in which case she makes herself an adulterer. That doesn’t mean that the husband has the right to divorce her! It just means that if he does divorce her, HE doesn’t make her an adulterer. However, Jesus commandment still remains: “Therefore what God hath put together, LET NO MAN PUT ASUNDER.” Divorce is as wicked as murder, and there is NO BIBLICAL GROUNDS FOR IT.

All this is good stuff. Can you post the link that documents that this is the official Baptist teaching?

 

[BloodWashed]

All this is good stuff. Can you post the link that documents that this is the official Baptist teaching?

Yes and no. Baptists don’t really have an official teaching other than the Bible, so there’s no “Baptist R Us” place I can send you to which lists a page of doctrines all Baptists ascribe to. However, one of my favorite fundamental sites is manned by a Baptist, and he has this article on divorce:

jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Marriage/divorce_is_a_sin.htm

Since Baptist churches are independant, there is a great possibility that there are Baptists out there who feel differently on divorce, just as there are some practicing Catholics who don’t agree with what the church teaches. As for me, I couldn’t really give a hoot what the crowd does, I’m gonna do what Jesus did.

And as for the post that said my church fathers came out of the Catholic church—I don’t believe that. I know you do, and I know I don’t, and I’m not going to get into a long discussion about it, because neither of us will change our mind.

 

[vocatio]

…

In a way though, the fact that annulments are so easy to get in the CC seems to me to be almost the same thing. I knew a few Catholics in the pro-life movement who got annulments just because they wanted them, which to me is wrong (one of them asked me to testify as a witness before the church marriage tribunal and she basically asked me to lie for her and say things about her husband which were not true, so** I refused and she wouldn’t talk to me anymore**.) But I heard she got the annulment after all.

Isn’t that just as bad?

GOOD FOR YOU!!! Sepharad. The Lord will remember this. You have done wonderful. This is what we call SCANDALOUS. Just as there are pathetic folks in Protestant faiths, there are also folks in the Catholic Church that are deeply distorted. Tthey will be surprised one day if they do not repent of the sin off lying to God as if He doesn’t know. What’s the point of lying to the Church? Frankly, not everyone that calls Him Lord will be saved. We must pray for folks like this so that their callused hearrts will become softened in the end.

 

[Sepharad]

GOOD FOR YOU!!! Sepharad. The Lord will remember this. You have done wonderful. This is what we call SCANDALOUS. Just as there are pathetic folks in Protestant faiths, there are also folks in the Catholic Church that are deeply distorted. Tthey will be surprised one day if they do not repent of the sin off lying to God as if He doesn’t know. What’s the point of lying to the Church? Frankly, not everyone that calls Him Lord will be saved. We must pray for folks like this so that their callused hearrts will become softened in the end.

You’re welcome! But what I always wanted to know is, how is it that people can get annulments so easily nowadays?

My mom told me that an uncle of hers tried to get one in the pre-V2 days and could not. She said annulments were very hard to get back then. Why are they so easy to get now?

This particular woman who wanted me to lie for her, finally did get her annulment…and I learned later that she had gotten one before that, too! How is this possible?

 

[mark_a]

Yes and no. Baptists don’t really have an official teaching other than the Bible, so there’s no “Baptist R Us” place I can send you to which lists a page of doctrines all Baptists ascribe to. However, one of my favorite fundamental sites is manned by a Baptist, and he has this article on divorce:

jesus-is-savior.com/Family/Marriage/divorce_is_a_sin.htm

Since Baptist churches are independant, there is a great possibility that there are Baptists out there who feel differently on divorce, just as there are some practicing Catholics who don’t agree with what the church teaches. As for me, I couldn’t really give a hoot what the crowd does, I’m gonna do what Jesus did.

Thanks for the link.

Could you clear up the statement below? I’m confused about the quoted use of the word “fornication” as compared to the explanation of adultery by Mr. Stewart.

In Matthew 5:32, Jesus said, “But I say unto you, That whosoever shall put away his wife, saving for the cause of fornication, causeth her to commit adultery: and whosoever shall marry her that is divorced committeth adultery.” Carefully notice that Jesus never gave anyone permission to divorce because of adultery.

While I was there, I was pleasantly surprised by Mr. Stewart’s views on contraception and this quote:

The Catholic Church teaches not to use contraceptives, except the methods of “Abstinence”, and the “Rhythm Method” when there is a very serious social problem, or a sickness . If you use any other Method, you can not receive Communion, in the words of Pope John Paul II… to be able to receive Communion, you have to confess your sin, and stop the Contraceptive Method, wherever it is. If you had surgery, just confess your sin.

As you may know, contraception is a huge part of the divorce-adultery equation.

 

[elvisman]

You’re welcome! But what I always wanted to know is, how is it that people can get annulments so easily nowadays?

My mom told me that an uncle of hers tried to get one in the pre-V2 days and could not. She said annulments were very hard to get back then. Why are they so easy to get now?

This particular woman who wanted me to lie for her, finally did get her annulment…and I learned later that she had gotten one before that, too! How is this possible?

Sepharad -
**Do you know what an anullment in the Catholic Church is? **
I keep reading that word on this thread but I’m not sure that many of you know what it is.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Sepharad -
Do you know what an anullment in the Catholic Church is?
**I keep reading that word on this thread but I’m not sure that many of you know **what it is.

I drew the same conclusion, that annullment is treated here as an approved divorce, when it is not. Some one should address this issue?

 

[elvisman]

I drew the same conclusion, that annullment is treated here as an approved divorce, when it is not. Some one should address this issue?

Thanks for not answering this. I want a non-Catholic to address this.

 

[Adam14]

Thanks for not answering this. I want a non-Catholic to address this.

I can’t speak for Shaparad…

But as a current non-Catholic, I’ve always understood an anullment to be exactly that, as a marriage that the Catholic church no longer says is a marriage…ie the “approved” divorce. This is an issue that I have been confused on, and I’m still quite confused on. I’m not saying that’s what it is, but that’s the way I’ve always understood it.

 

[elvisman]

I can’t speak for Shaparad…

But as a current non-Catholic, I’ve always understood an anullment to be exactly that, as a marriage that the Catholic church no longer says is a marriage…ie the “approved” divorce. This is an issue that I have been, and I’m still quite confused on. I’m not saying that’s what it is, but that’s the way I’ve always understood it.

Fair enough - that’s what a lot of people think.
**Actually, a declaration of nullity states that a Sacramental marriage never took place. There can be various reasons for this. A young couple that was coerced into marriage because of a pregnancy can be a reason. **

What it is not is a “Catholic divorce”.

 

[Adam14]

Fair enough - that’s what a lot of people think.
Actually a declaration of nullity states that a Sacramental marriage never took place. There can be various reasons for this. A young couple that was coerced into marriage because of a pregnancy can be a reason.

What it is not is a “Catholic divorce”.

Thanks for the info elvis…

So when I hear of someone getting an anullment so they can get married again, what they’re hoping for is that the church will say the original marriage never took place(or wasn’t valid)?

Has any annulments been granted for couples who were married in the Catholic church(both parties Catholic, in what they and everyone else thought and deemed a valid marriage)?

Note* Not trying to argue, but just really want to know. I’m starting RCIA this fall, and I plan on asking these same questions, I’d just like to know what you guys think. Thanks

 

[Sean_Boyle]

I can’t speak for Shaparad…

But as a current non-Catholic, I’ve always understood an anullment to be exactly that, as a marriage that the Catholic church no longer says is a marriage…ie the “approved” divorce. This is an issue that I have been confused on, and I’m still quite confused on. I’m not saying that’s what it is, but that’s the way I’ve always understood it.

There is no such thing an “approved divorce”. In the Sacriment of Marriage it is said, “what God has joined, let no man must put asunder”. Civil divorce can not force God to unbless a marriage or make it end in his eyes.

A decree of nullity states that a sacrimental marriage never took place in the eyes of God.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thanks for the info elvis…

So when I hear of someone getting an anullment so they can get married again, what they’re hoping for is that the church will say the original marriage never took place(or wasn’t valid)?

Has any annulments been granted for couples who were married in the Catholic church(both parties Catholic, in what they and everyone else thought and deemed a valid marriage)?

Note* Not trying to argue, but just really want to know. I’m starting RCIA this fall, and I plan on asking these same questions, I’d just like to know what you guys think. Thanks

Hi Adam14, My brother who left for vietnam in the 60’s, got married by the Catholic church just before taking off to war. He served 3 tours back to back to back. When he was finally able to return stateside, His wife had two kids, during the time while away. The infidelity played a small role in the annullment process, what helped determined the annullment, was the rush into a marriage because of the War forced the young couples decision to marry. Now there were many other items, not wishing to disclose here that determines the annullment not divorce. This annullment process took about 15 years.

There is no divorce in the Catholic church. Truth be spoken here, many catholics are divorced by the law of the land. But as far as God is concerned they are still in a sacramental marriage in the eyes of the Catholic church. These Catholics are not free to marry again, unless an annullment takes place. So what one may see a catholic do outside the church, is not what the Catholic church teaches. Again there is never a divorce in the Catholic church.

I hope this helps, peace be with you

 

[Adam14]

Hi Adam14, My brother who left for vietnam in the 60’s, got married by the Catholic church just before taking off to war. He served 3 tours back to back to back. When he was finally able to return stateside, His wife had two kids, during the time while away. The infidelity played a small role in the annullment process, what helped determined the annullment, was the rush into a marriage because of the War forced the young couples decision to marry. Now there were many other items, not wishing to disclose here that determines the annullment not divorce. This annullment process took about 15 years.

There is no divorce in the Catholic church. Truth be spoken here, many catholics are divorced by the law of the land. But as far as God is concerned they are still in a sacramental marriage in the eyes of the Catholic church. These Catholics are not free to marry again, unless an annullment takes place. So what one may see a catholic do outside the church, is not what the Catholic church teaches. Again there is never a divorce in the Catholic church.

I hope this helps, peace be with you

Thanks so much for the clarification!

 

[bilop]

Thanks for the info elvis…

So when I hear of someone getting an anullment so they can get married again, what they’re hoping for is that the church will say the original marriage never took place(or wasn’t valid)?

Has any annulments been granted for couples who were married in the Catholic church(both parties Catholic, in what they and everyone else thought and deemed a valid marriage)?

Note* Not trying to argue, but just really want to know. I’m starting RCIA this fall, and I plan on asking these same questions, I’d just like to know what you guys think. Thanks

Most “annulments”, really decrees of nullity are for lack of form. Basically, it means a Catholic married outside of the Church, w/o permission (dispensation) from the Bishop. These are the “annulments” that are very easy to get. All you have to do is show the paperwork, baptismal record and record of non-Catholic marriage, and they are granted very quickly.

Other reasons for decrees of nullity (e.g. intention against children, intention against fidelity, coersion, etc.) require a tribunal process, and usually take several years. They are not easy to get.

However, given the state of our current society, it is not suprising that there are many such decrees granted.

Examples of “annulments” where the wedding was of proper form (in Church) and everyone thought the marriage was valid could include:

1. The couple was contracepting at the time of marriage, and one (or both) never intended to have kids. They divorce, and one party has a reversion to the faith, and seeks a decree. (intention against children).
2. One partner was having an affair during the engagement and intended to and continued after the wedding. (intention against fidelity.)

Hope this helps.

God Bless

 

[Adam14]

Most “annulments”, really decrees of nullity are for lack of form. Basically, it means a Catholic married outside of the Church, w/o permission (dispensation) from the Bishop. These are the “annulments” that are very easy to get. All you have to do is show the paperwork, baptismal record and record of non-Catholic marriage, and they are granted very quickly.

Other reasons for decrees of nullity (e.g. intention against children, intention against fidelity, coersion, etc.) require a tribunal process, and usually take several years. They are not easy to get.

However, given the state of our current society, it is not suprising that there are many such decrees granted.

Examples of “annulments” where the wedding was of proper form (in Church) and everyone thought the marriage was valid could include:

1. The couple was contracepting at the time of marriage, and one (or both) never intended to have kids. They divorce, and one party has a reversion to the faith, and seeks a decree. (intention against children).
2. One partner was having an affair during the engagement and intended to and continued after the wedding. (intention against fidelity.)

Hope this helps.

God Bless

Very helpful…thanks!

 

[Sepharad]

Sepharad -
Do you know what an anullment in the Catholic Church is?
**I keep reading that word on this thread but I’m not sure that many of you know **what it is.

An annulment means that a genuine, lawful marriage never truly took place. Such as a marriage between two siblings, or a marriage where one party was drunk at the time and could not give lawful consent, etc.

 

[elvisman]

An annulment means that a genuine, lawful marriage never truly took place. Such as a marriage between two siblings, or a marriage where one party was drunk at the time and could not give lawful consent, etc.

Well, as has been stated in the past few posts, it’s a delcaration that a Sacramental marriage had never taken place when the alleged marriage was contracted. Bilop went into it a little further.

What is isn’t is a divorce or dissolution of a marriage. The Catholic Church believes that a valid or Sacramental marriage cannot be dissolved.