I dont see how this doesnt borderline on mary worship

[cuban07]

Hello if you’ve been following my threads I am looking into the catholic church and would very much like to get baptized, however every so often i see these red flags… What i read a few minutes ago on another thread raised one such flag, even more so well because it came directly from the mouth of a pope.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm

That link includes this:
"3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, *** 24, 1891, 196.

… it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us–for ‘grace and truth came through Jesus Christ’ [Jn 1.17]–nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."

how can someone possibly say that noone can come to christ except through mary?

 

[Fidelis]

How can someone possibly say that noone can come to christ except through mary?

I can think of one example.

If Mary hadn’t given birth to Christ and nourished him as an infant from her own body, and rasied him to young adulthood, none of us would have Christ at all.

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to ransom those under the law, so that we might receive adoption. --Galatians 4:4-5

Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. --1 John 4:1-4

Isn’t it reasonable to assume that, now that Mary is in heaven, she still maintains the same great dignity of bringing children into the kingdom?

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne…
The dragon [Satan] became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. —Revelation 12:1-5, 17

 

[Jerry-Jet]

Because Jesus wouldn’t have been incarnated as both God and man without Mary!

No Mary = No man Jesus!

And since anyone who comes to Christ comes not only to the Divcine nature of Christ but to His human nature, too–then no one can come to that human nature without Mary–take her away and we never have Christ’s human nature.

And absolutely none of that takes away from Only Jesus being God and Mary only being a human creature!

 

[VociMike]

I don’t see how you go from the words you quoted to “borderline” Mary worship.

We can also only come to God through faith. Does that mean Christians are “borderline” faith worshipers?

 

[st_lucy]

Hello if you’ve been following my threads I am looking into the catholic church and would very much like to get baptized, however every so often i see these red flags… What i read a few minutes ago on another thread raised one such flag, even more so well because it came directly from the mouth of a pope.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm

That link includes this:
"3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, *** 24, 1891, 196.

… it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us–for ‘grace and truth came through Jesus Christ’ [Jn 1.17]–nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."

how can someone possibly say that noone can come to christ except through mary?

When ever I hear these objections to Mary I find myself humming the childhood poem:

Mary had a little lamb,
Little lamb, little lamb,
Mary had a little lamb,
Its fleece was white as snow

And everywhere that Mary went,
Mary went, Mary went,
Everywhere that Mary went
The lamb was sure to go

It followed her to school one day
School one day, school one day
It followed her to school one day
Which was against the rules.

It made the children laugh and play,
Laugh and play, laugh and play,
It made the children laugh and play
To see a lamb at school

And so the teacher turned it out,
Turned it out, turned it out,
And so the teacher turned it out,
But still it lingered near

And waited patiently about,
Patiently about, patiently about,
And waited patiently about
Till Mary did appear

“Why does the lamb love Mary so?”
Love Mary so? Love Mary so?
“Why does the lamb love Mary so?”
The eager children cry

“Why, Mary loves the lamb, you know.”
Loves the lamb, you know, loves the lamb, you know
“Why, Mary loves the lamb, you know.”
The teacher did reply

I know it may seem off topic, but when we see life as a child we tend to understand better.

 

[cuban07]

I can think of one example.

If Mary hadn’t given birth to Christ and nourished him as an infant from her own body, and rasied him to young adulthood, none of us would have Christ at all.

But when the fullness of time had come, God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, to ransom those under the law, so that we might receive adoption. --Galatians 4:4-5

Beloved, do not trust every spirit but test the spirits to see whether they belong to God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. This is how you can know the Spirit of God: every spirit that acknowledges Jesus Christ come in the flesh be longs to God, and every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus does not belong to God. This is the spirit of the antichrist that, as you heard, is to come, but in fact is already in the world. You belong to God, children, and you have conquered them, for the one who is in you is greater than the one who is in the world. --1 John 4:1-4

Isn’t it reasonable to assume that, now that Mary is in heaven, she still maintains the same great dignity of bringing children into the kingdom?

A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.
Then another sign appeared in the sky; it was a huge red dragon, with seven heads and ten horns, and on its heads were seven diadems. Its tail swept away a third of the stars in the sky and hurled them down to the earth. Then the dragon stood before the woman about to give birth, to devour her child when she gave birth. She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod. Her child was caught up to God and his throne…
The dragon [Satan] became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus. —Revelation 12:1-5, 17

but here you are comparing apples and oranges, no? Although Mary did give birth to Jesus, it is another thing to claim that we must pray to Mary or go through Mary if Jesus wants to hear our prayers… if that is what he is saying. if not what IS he saying?

 

[Madalynne]

but here you are comparing apples and oranges, no? Although Mary did give birth to Jesus, it is another thing to claim that we must pray to Mary or go through Mary if Jesus wants to hear our prayers… if that is what he is saying. if not what IS he saying?

First of all, how many times have you heard somebody say that the way to a man’s heart is through his mother’s?

We are looking for a way into the arms of Jesus, and through a special honoring of Mary, she can help guide our hearts to be in union with His.

 

[Mannyfit75]

but here you are comparing apples and oranges, no? Although Mary did give birth to Jesus, it is another thing to claim that we must pray to Mary or go through Mary if Jesus wants to hear our prayers… if that is what he is saying. if not what IS he saying?

We ask Mary to pray for us which is no different than me asking you to pray for me.

We do not worship Mary period. The Catholic Church does not teach that. All the CC teaches is veneration or honor given to her and the saints.

She is our spiritual mother because in Christ, and our baptism, we have been made brothers and sisters of the Lord. God, as Our Father. The fifth commandment 1. Honor your Father and your mother makes this even clear.

You also have to keep in mind in Biblical typology, in the OT Jewish kings have mothers as their queen for kings had many wives in the culture of the ancient near east.

1 Kings 2:17, 20 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the King does not refuse his mother. Jesus is the new Davidic King, and He does not refuse the requests of his mother Mary, the Queen.

1 Kings 2:18 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom, the Queen intercedes on behalf of the King’s followers. She is the Queen Mother (or “Gebirah”). Mary is our eternal Gebirah.

1 Kings 2:19 - in the Old Testament Davidic kingdom the King bows down to his mother and she sits at his right hand. We, as children of the New Covenant, should imitate our King and pay the same homage to Mary our Mother. By honoring Mary, we honor our King, Jesus Christ.

1 Kings 15:13 - the Queen Mother is a powerful position in Israel’s royal monarchy. Here the Queen is removed from office. But now, the Davidic kingdom is perfected by Jesus, and our Mother Mary is forever at His right hand.

2 Chron. 22:10 - here Queen Mother Athalia destroys the royal family of Judah after she sees her son, King Ahaziah, dead. The Queen mother plays a significant role in the kingdom.

Neh. 2:6 - the Queen Mother sits beside the King. She is the primary intercessor before the King.

This is proven more so in the miracle in Cana when Mary told her son, Jesus.

3 And the wine failing, the mother of Jesus saith to him: They have no wine. 4 And Jesus saith to her: Woman, what is that to me and to thee? my hour is not yet come. 5 His mother saith to the waiters: Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.

Even though this was taken while Mary was still on earth. This only proves to show that Jesus accepted Mary’s petition on behalf of the couple. Jesus inherited the throne of his father David. As such, his kingdom would have a queen. This queen is Mary, his mother.

 

[RWMorris]

Here’s the way I understand it.

…nothing is imparted to us except through Mary

Even though God willed Mary to be the Son of God, Mary, being fully human, had free will, a choice. She did not have to go along with God. She could have simply said, “No, thanks.” But she didn’t, she accepted one of the most incredible burdens a human has ever had to bear, because she loved God and wanted to do his will.

…so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son

I assume you have no problem with this part. But let me say here that Jesus was also fully human and wasn’t gleefully looking forward to His part in this drama either. In fact, being fully human Himself, He could have backed out of the deal. But He loved us, he loved God, and He loved His Mother, too much to disappoint us or them and falter on the greatest Act of Love in human history

…so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."

If Mary had said, “No!”, then human salvation would have been…ah…I don’t know. So of course you have to devoutly believe in (come through) Mary’s contribution, her choice, her virginity (at least through Jesus’ birth), and her suffering to get to Christ. All Christians believe this.

…how can someone possibly say that none can come to Christ except through Mary?

Catholics, and a few Protestants, just add a formal adoration to our acknowledgement, our appreciation, and our love for Mary. We do not worship her.

Hope that helped. God Bless!

 

[Todd_Easton]

The idea that the blessed Virgin Mary is now the Mediatrix of all of God’s graces is, as far as I know, not yet Catholic dogma but a long-held Catholic theological speculation and, as such, Catholics are free to believe in it or not.

Nevertheless, it seems fairly clear from Scripture (John 19:27 and Revelation 12:17) and Tradition (St. Irenaeus of Lyons, Against Heresies 5:33:11) that the blessed Virgin Mary is the spiritual mother of all Christians. From this, it is only a small logical step to conclude that, just as God has willed that the physical needs of a babe in the womb or at the breast be satisfied (supplied) by his mother, so too God has willed that all of a Christian’s spiritually needs (God’s graces) are to be satisfied (mediated) by his spiritual mother, the blessed Virgin Mary.

The idea that the blessed Virgin Mary, the faithful handmaid of the Lord in life, would be entrusted as so great a responsibility as mediating all of God’s graces in the afterlife is consistent with the promises of Jesus that those who were faithful with even small responsibilities in this life would be rewarded with much greater responsibility in the afterlife. (Matthew 25:14-29) Now, since no mere human being in history was entrusted with a greater responsibility than the blessed Virgin Mary when she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus, is it not altogether fitting that she, who was faithful with the greatest maternal responsibility in life, be given the greatest maternal responsibility in the afterlife?

 

[bpbasilphx]

Does that mean Christians are “borderline” faith worshipers?
Reply With Quote

You reall mean “pop-evangelicals” in this sentence, don’t you VociMike?

Roman CAtholics are Christians, too.

 

[cuban07]

I am not saying that catholics pray to mary. I understand the concept of intercession. I just want to know, did or did the pope not mean that if we don’t pray to mary Jesus doesn’t hear/accept our prayers, and if not , what did he mean and how do you deduce that he meant that.
The way he put it seems pretty clear to me. I know the special place that mary holds, she is after all, Jesus’s mother. I know that often times if you want to get to a man you might go to his mother and she might knock some sense into him, talk to him on your behalf or make it easier for you. however to say that if i want such man to hear me I MUST talk to the mother and not to him directly is something else altogether.

 

[Fidelis]

but here you are comparing apples and oranges, no? Although Mary did give birth to Jesus, it is another thing to claim that we must pray to Mary or go through Mary if Jesus wants to hear our prayers… if that is what he is saying. if not what IS he saying?

Not at all. First of all, the quote doesn’t say anything about “we must pray to Mary or go through Mary if Jesus wants to hear our prayers.” It is speaking about certain graces we recieve from God.

What the Pope was saying (and what I tried to explain) is that, just as Mary had a special role on earth, she has one in heaven. Read carefully the original quote:

… it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of **all grace which the Lord **brought us–for ‘grace and truth came through Jesus Christ’ [Jn 1.17]–nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."

What this means to affirm is that the source of all graces we have is God and no one else. However the **means **by which those graces comes to us is in the way that God sees fit to use —and the Pope was saying that Mary is that means.

This was the point of my comparing Mary’s role as Jesus’ earthly Mother to her present role as spiritual Mother (please re-read my previous post). God could have brought Christ into the world any way he wanted to --but he chose Mary for this very special role.

For Mary to have such a role does not equate her with being God in any way. To say that the person who serves as the deliverer of the gifts is necessarily equal to the one who is sending you the gift does not make sense. That would mean that when Grandma on the other side of the country sends you your birthday present by UPS, you should equate the UPS deliverer to Grandma. I’m sure Grandpa would not be amused!

 

[cuban07]

Not at all. First of all, the quote doesn’t say anything about “we must pray to Mary or go through Mary if Jesus wants to hear our prayers.” It is speaking about certain graces we recieve from God.

What the Pope was saying (and what I tried to explain) is that, just as Mary had a special role on earth, she has one in heaven. Read carefully the original quote:
What this means to affirm is that the source of all graces we have is God and no one else. However the **means **by which those graces comes to us is in the way that God sees fit to use —and the Pope was saying that Mary is that means.

This was the point of my comparing Mary’s role as Jesus’ earthly Mother to her present role as spiritual Mother (please re-read my previous post). God could have brought Christ into the world any way he wanted to --but he chose Mary for this very special role.

For Mary to have such a role does not equate her with being God in any way. To say that the person who serves as the deliverer of the gifts is necessarily equal to the one who is sending you the gift does not make sense. That would mean that when Grandma on the other side of the country sends you your birthday present by UPS, you should equate the UPS deliverer to Grandma. I’m sure Grandpa would not be amused!

Maybe my reading comprehension skills are not up to par but i get from the pope’s statement is that i cannot speak to Jesus directly. I am not saying the pope said Mary is God, i am simply saying that from his statement one can infer that he does say Jesus is out of reach and only by going through Mary we can reach the son. I understand i can speak to the mother and she might be a way to reach the son but to say that I MUST go through the mother gives me cause for concern.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I am not saying that catholics pray to mary. I understand the concept of intercession. I just want to know, did or did the pope not mean that if we don’t pray to mary Jesus doesn’t hear/accept our prayers, and if not , what did he mean and how do you deduce that he meant that.

The way he put it seems pretty clear to me. I know the special place that mary holds, she is after all, Jesus’s mother. I know that often times if you want to get to a man you might go to his mother and she might knock some sense into him, talk to him on your behalf or make it easier for you. however to say that if i want such man to hear me I MUST talk to the mother and not to him directly is something else altogether.

The Catholic Church has never taught that you can’t pray to Jesus and use Mary instead. Intercession is just one of the prayers that are fruitful for our spiritual growth. If you feel uncomfortable asking Mary to pray for you, then don’t ask her to pray for you.

In the Catholic Church, we are not force to ask Mary to pray for us. We can pray to God directly. The Mass itself is the most powerful prayer offered to God the Father, since we are offering the Body, and Blood of Our Lord for the atonement for our sins.

With this in mind, when you do ask Mary to intercede on your behalf, she always send those request or prayers bring it to her son just like she did in Cana. Mary points us to her son. She wants us to seek her son, love her son, and stop offending her son by our continueous sinful acts.

 

[Linda_Marie]

Originally Posted by cuban07
I understand i can speak to the mother and she might be a way to reach the son but to say that I MUST go through the mother gives me cause for concern.

Pope Leo XIII qualified his statement by saying “in general” no one can come to Christ except through Mary. This allows the possibility of people coming to Christ not through Mary. However, the graces we need for eternal salvation come through Mary (not from her). One need not ask Mary for them (although you can), she dispenses them according to the Will of God. My opinion is that even for those who accord her no merit or recognition, Mary brings them the grace to come to Christ because it is the Will of God.

From the Catechism teaching on Mediatrix:

969 "This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfillment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation . . . . Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."512

970 "Mary’s function as mother of men in no way obscures or diminishes this unique mediation of Christ, but rather shows its power. But the Blessed Virgin’s salutary influence on men . . . flows forth from the superabundance of the merits of Christ, rests on his mediation, depends entirely on it, and draws all its power from it."513 "No creature could ever be counted along with the Incarnate Word and Redeemer; but just as the priesthood of Christ is shared in various ways both by his ministers and the faithful, and as the one goodness of God is radiated in different ways among his creatures, so also the unique mediation of the Redeemer does not exclude but rather gives rise to a manifold cooperation which is but a sharing in this one source."514

 

[RWMorris]

My opinion is that even for those who accord her no merit or recognition, Mary brings them the grace to come to Christ because it is the Will of God.

But Linda, don’t all Christians have to at least give Mary the merit and recognition of Jesus’ virgin birth and willingness to sacrifice Her reputation at God’s request and that She birth His Son? Isn’t that one of the “minimums” of the Christian faith?

 

[VociMike]

Does that mean Christians are “borderline” faith worshipers?
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You reall mean “pop-evangelicals” in this sentence, don’t you VociMike?

Roman CAtholics are Christians, too.

Certainly. I meant is every Christian (Catholic, Protestant of any stripe, Orthodox) a “borderline” faith worshiper? After all, we all believe one can only come to God through faith.

And if one believes one can only know God through the bible, does that make them a borderline bible worshiper? Or if they believe they can only know God through prayer, are they a borderline prayer worshiper? I think it’s clear that I could go on.

 

[VociMike]

Maybe my reading comprehension skills are not up to par but i get from the pope’s statement is that i cannot speak to Jesus directly.

No, he certainly isn’t saying that. And I doubt you will find one Catholic on the entire planet who believes one cannot, or should not, speak to Jesus directly.

 

[NonDenom]

Because Jesus wouldn’t have been incarnated as both God and man without Mary!

No Mary = No man Jesus!

This idea is wrong, the reason God picked Mary is because he knew she would say yes. If Mary would have said no God would not have sent the Angel to her. You act like God would have been in big trouble sending his Son here if it hadn’t been for Mary. God is much BIGGER than that.