I dont see how this doesnt borderline on mary worship

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Two points I think everyone can benefit from.
  1. If we all were as committed to God’s will as the Blessed Virgin was we’d all be a lot better off. Luke 1:38 “And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word…”
  2. We can certainly learn from the very words of the Blessed Virgin in John 2:5. “…Whatsoever he shall say to you, do ye.”
 
Kjallak said:
No Mary’s Mother = No Mary, no Adam + Eve = no anyone, dear Lord we should worship everyone by this man’s logic!
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Except for the fact that Catholics do not worship Mary—or anyone else but God.
 
The whole point of salvation history is that God doesn’t want to just wave some magic wand and save us. He wants us to use our free will and co-operate with Him – work together with Him.

He will give us all sorts of grace we don’t deserve, He will come down and die for us. And all he wants in return is for us to move one little pinky to work with Him!

He wants us to say “Be it done unto me according to your word”. He wants us to hurry up to the hills while burdened with our own challenges, to go help someone else. He wants us to love and serve Him and love and serve each other.

So yes, He chose to come to us as a little child. He chose to give a little Jewish teenager a huge choice. He chose to spend thousands of years working through Israel. He chose to direct all history so that you would be born, and that many graces would come to you, and through you to others. He made us, and He made us to know His love through others as well as Himself.

It is a great mystery, but we are all called to be co-workers with God.

And Mary, although infinitely less than God, was chosen by God to be His co-worker in the most profound way in all time and space – for her human body to contain Him whom Heaven cannot contain, and to be both His mother, His Ark, and His temple gate. Truly, “He hath exalted the humble”.
 
cuban07 said:
Hello if you’ve been following my threads I am looking into the catholic church and would very much like to get baptized, however every so often i see these red flags… What i read a few minutes ago on another thread raised one such flag, even more so well because it came directly from the mouth of a pope.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm

That link includes this:
"3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, *** 24, 1891, 196.

… it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us–for ‘grace and truth came through Jesus Christ’ [Jn 1.17]–nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."

how can someone possibly say that noone can come to christ except through mary?
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The way I look at this, is to think of Mary as being “in Christ” - He is the “garden enclosed”, within which (or Whom) she is active. Her ability to be, or do anything, is in all respects absolutely & totally dependent on His - the very last thing Mary is, or could be, is an independent agent. She is anything but that - there is nothing whatever in her that is not in every respect His. She has nothing of her own, but is totally possessed by Him, so she possesses all that is His: this would be false, if St. Paul had not written to the Roman Church that “all things are yours” - if that is true of them, there is no way it can be false of her; because our salvation began from Mary. There is no way to get past this: not without denying that Jesus Christ is her son.​

It is not difficult to use that text so as to think of her as an obstacle we must negotiate to come to Him - but I don’t think that it is necessary to understand the Pope in that sense. She’s not an obstacle, but a means - just as the Bible is a means. Neither need function as an obstacle to Christ their Creator - both can, both have. If the Bible does not stop Christ being the Way to the Father, just as He is the Truth & the Life, I don’t think she need do so either.

ISTM that many of the problems & troubles we have in talking about her would come into clearer focus if, where we read the words “the Virgin Mary”, we were to read the words “the Holy Bible” instead - a lot of the problems & questions & objections seem to be identical, or very similar. So the solution to one, may often be a solution to the other. 🙂
 
PC_Master said:
The text is pretty clear…
…nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother.
The text says that in general, without going through Mary, no one can come to Christ. This is simply wrong. Explain to me how this text can be seen to mean anything else (without drastically twisting what it says).
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Oh you mean like maybe since Mary was the Mother of God and gave birth to Christ i.e. Christ was born through Mary. That we therefore receive Christ “through” Mary.

Or is that too tortured for you. (Wait, let me guess.)

Chuck
 
cuban07 said:
but here you are comparing apples and oranges, no? Although Mary did give birth to Jesus, it is another thing to claim that we must pray to Mary or go through Mary if Jesus wants to hear our prayers… if that is what he is saying. if not what IS he saying?
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You don’t have to ask Mary for her intercession. It definitely helps. You can pray directly to God. It is always comforting to me that Mary being the mother of God is so close to Jesus and Jesus being the son of God and the son of Mary, he would do anything for his mother. Look at the wedding feast at Cana. Mary came to Jesus when there was no more wine. Jesus was obedient to his mother and turned water into wine. He didn’t have to since he was God, but he loves his mother and would do anything for her. That is the same way we ask Mary to interceed for us.
 
Anyone who is wise both directly prays to God and also asks Mary and all the saints for intercession, too.

In fact if I am ill I ask everyone to pray for me whther they or a saint or not. Who wouldn’t?
 
cuban07 said:
Hello if you’ve been following my threads I am looking into the catholic church and would very much like to get baptized, however every so often i see these red flags… What i read a few minutes ago on another thread raised one such flag, even more so well because it came directly from the mouth of a pope.

ewtn.com/faith/teachings/marya4a.htm

That link includes this:
"3) Leo XIII, Encyclical, Octobri mense adventante, Sept 22, 1891, *** 24, 1891, 196.

… it is right to say, that nothing at all of that very great treasury of all grace which the Lord brought us–for ‘grace and truth came through Jesus Christ’ [Jn 1.17]–nothing is imparted to us except through Mary, since God so wills, so that just as no one can come to the Father except through the Son, so in general, no one can come to Christ except through His Mother."

how can someone possibly say that noone can come to christ except through mary?
Click to expand...
Quite honestly, the Marian doctrines are the most difficult for new converts. May I suggest something? A thorough study of the doctrines of Mary being mediatrix along with her Son. This was first expressed in the earliest days of the church.

You must get to understand it as God’s plan for Mary. Christ would not be human but for her DNA.

Subrosa
 
Mannyfit75 said:
We ask Mary to pray for us which is no different than me asking you to pray for me.
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I think that there is a difference between the two.
In the case of Mary, she is able to hear and understand hundreds of thousands of different prayers in many different languages all of which are being addressed to her at the same time.
In the case of your friend, this would not be possible.
 
We should Literally go through all the saints in addition to directly going to Christ!

Why?

Because by going through all the other saints that He graciously created we bring even more glory to Him than just by going directly to Him. Loving His saints IS loving Him!
 
bobzills said:
I think that there is a difference between the two.
In the case of Mary, she is able to hear and understand hundreds of thousands of different prayers in many different languages all of which are being addressed to her at the same time.
In the case of your friend, this would not be possible.
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Actually if your friend had an answering machine (or email) and a couplea good language dictionaries your friend could indeed (eventually) hear and understand a huge number of requests given to 'em, even if all at the same time and in different languages. 🙂

Heaven is in eternity, remember, outside of time. So the number of requests doesn’t matter.
 
LilyM said:
Heaven is in eternity, remember, outside of time. So the number of requests doesn’t matter.
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All I said was that the two cases are different contrary to what was asserted above.
Case 1: You as a friend here on earth to pray for you
Case 2: You ask Mary to pray for you.
I see the cases as being different for the reasons I already gave.
 
bobzills said:
All I said was that the two cases are different contrary to what was asserted above.
Case 1: You as a friend here on earth to pray for you
Case 2: You ask Mary to pray for you.
I see the cases as being different for the reasons I already gave.
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Because it’s lots of people at once and in all different languages? Even people on earth can, as I pointed out, cope with that much. Why not Mary?
 
LilyM said:
Because it’s lots of people at once and in all different languages? Even people on earth can, as I pointed out, cope with that much. Why not Mary?
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Really. Could you please tell me the name of your friend who can understand the following languages:Abaza
Abazinian
Abe
Abkhaz
Abkhazo-Adyghian
Abua
Abure
Achehnese
Acholi
Adamawa
Adangme
Adele
Adygei
Adyghe
Afar
Afo
Afrikaans
Afrikaans, Pidgen
AfroRoman
Afudu
Agni
Ahlo
Ainu
Ajukru
Akan
Akkadian
Akoli
Akpafu
Akposo
Aku
Akuapim
Akunakuna
Alagia
Albanian
Aleut
Algonquian
Aliutor
All
Alsatian
Altai
Altaic
Alur
Alyawarra
Ambo
Amer-Ind (Sign Language)
Americo
Amerind
Amerindian
Amharic
Amorite
Amoy Hokkien (Chinese-Fukien)
Amuesha
Anatolian
Andamanese
Andean-Equatorial
Andi
Angleutsch
Anglo-Frisian
Anglo-Romani
Anglo-Saxon
Annamese (see Vietnamese)
Antido
Antilles Creole
Anyi
Anyimere
Apache
Apalai
Apurina
Arabic
Arad
Aram
Aramaic
Aranda (Arunta)
Arapaho
Araucanian
Arawak
Arc-a-Plat
Arci
Ari
Aricapu
Armenian
Arunta
Ashanti
Asian
Asmara Pidgen English
Assamese
Assinaboin
Assyrian
Athabaskan
Athapaskian
Aukaans
Avar
Avatime
Avikam
Aymara
Azerbaijani
Azeri
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Azeri-Cyrillic
Azeri-Turkish
Aztec Babylonian
Bacairi
Baenna
Bagot Creole English
Bahasa Indonesia
Bahnar
Baining
Balante
Balinese
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Baluchi
Bambara
Bamboo English
Bamboo Spanish
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Banda
Bantu
Banyun
Barambo
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Chinbu
Chinese
Chingpaw
Chinyanja
Chipewyan
Chippewa
Chiquito
Chiswina
Choctaw
Chokwe
Chol
Chontal
Chuang
Chukchi
Chungchia
Church Slavic
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Cornish
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continued
 
continued:
Dagbane
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Dakota (Sioux, Lakota)
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Lappish
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Lehnda - See Punjabi
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Lenape
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llocano
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Macedonian
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Maithili - See Bihari
Makonde
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Malagache
Malagasy
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Malayam
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Malgache - See Malagasy
Malinke
Maltese
Mam
Mambila-Suga
Mampa
Mamshi
Manchu
Mandarin - See Chinese
Mandingo
Mandingo - See Malinke
Mangbei
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Manipuri
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Manx
Manx Gaelic
Maori
Maqua
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Mari
Marind
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Menominee
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Min
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Mixe
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Modern Greek-See Greek(Modern)
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Mohave
Mohawk
Moksha
Moldavian
Mole
Mon
Mondunga
Mongo
Mongolian
Monjombo
Montenegrin
Mordvin
More
Moso
Mosquito
Mossi
Motu
Mumuye
Mundang
Mundari
Mundu-Mayogu-Bangba
Munshi
Muong
Murmi
Murngin
Muskokee (Creek)
I could continue with another 500 or so languages, but even up to this point, I doubt that your friend would be able to understand all of these languages, particularly when people are speaking them simultaneously.
So, I do not retract my point and I still think that there is a difference between the two cases.
 
fellowChristian said:
Jesus honored is mother too.
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True, but he didn’t venerate her. And you didn’t answer my previous point – why do you know that we should go through Mary just because Jesus did?
Jerry-Jet said:
We should Literally go through all the saints in addition to directly going to Christ!

Why?

Because by going through all the other saints that He graciously created we bring even more glory to Him than just by going directly to Him. Loving His saints IS loving Him!
Click to expand...
Would you care to offer more than just empty rhetoric? How can anything provide more glory than going directly to Christ? I just can’t imagine it, unless you’re saying that somehow, going to Christ isn’t the be-all and end-all of prayer needs.
 
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