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Irishmom2
Guest
Well, you don’t need to divorce him, you need him to understand that as of today, things are different. But then, you really need to not backslide. Say what you want and expect no less.
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Xantippe
Guest
TSB4:
I just remembered that there is a poster on here who is a woman with a large family (9–I think) and some special needs kids. She is divorced. Her handle is holyrood. I suggest you get in touch with her via PM, as she may have some insight into your situation.
By the way, if you’re still around, the social science on this is that kids come out of unhappy marriages better than out of divorce UNLESS it is a household with lots of open fighting and strife. The quietly unhappy households aren’t that harmful for kids, compared to divorce. I don’t have the cites for this right now, but I used to read a lot on this (Wallerstein’s books, for instance). The question is, which is your family? I can’t quite tell from your posts. Is your husband consistently angry, or was the situation you mentioned a one-off?
Another thing to bear in mind is that a lot of psychological stuff is hereditary. For instance, both my husband and I have some mildly autistic features, so SURPRISE! we have at least one mildly autistic child. You have your issues and it would not surprise me at all if your husband had one or two psychological things going on (this stuff is not one per customer–it’s possible to collect the whole set). So, it would not be surprising if part of the difficulty with your kids is that they have inherited certain features from the two of you which make them more difficult than the average child. On the one hand, that makes life harder, but on the other hand, it’s reason for empathy and understanding toward them. When my daughter was about 6, she was falling out of her chair at meals and very slow to get dressed (I was dressing her for school until she was nearly 8). Only with time did it dawn on me that she had real physical disabilities that needed to be taken care of (a very weak core and poor fine motor skills–very typical of autism spectrum children). So she saw a therapist for gross motor stuff and did therapeutic horseback riding and we did a home program of training on how to do zippers, buttons, and so forth and now that she’s nearly 12, her issues are much more subtle than they were 5 years ago. Anyway, the point of that story was that initially, I thought she was doing all of that stuff (for instance, the falling out of chairs) on purpose and just to annoy me. That turned out to be not at all the case.
Oh, and by the way, it’s quite typical for fathers of special needs children to be in huge denial about their children’s condition (my MIL is a psychologist and she says that’s quite common). For a variety of reasons, it takes them much, much longer to come to terms with the fact that there is something different about their children. I don’t know if any of your children are special needs, but it would certainly not surprise me. I’d also add that in my experience, men who are themselves somewhere on the autism spectrum tend to be particularly obtuse about kids. One of our kids’ grandfathers once gave me a very rough time during a visit when our oldest kids were 3 and 1 and I was really struggling with them. Grandpa said, “Why is she having such a hard time? Look at all the women who have 5 kids and do just fine!” Needless to say, grandpa had never had 5 kids at home. Grandpa had never even had 3 kids at home, but grandpa was sure that it was no big deal. That story may remind you of somebody you know.
Best wishes!
I just remembered that there is a poster on here who is a woman with a large family (9–I think) and some special needs kids. She is divorced. Her handle is holyrood. I suggest you get in touch with her via PM, as she may have some insight into your situation.
By the way, if you’re still around, the social science on this is that kids come out of unhappy marriages better than out of divorce UNLESS it is a household with lots of open fighting and strife. The quietly unhappy households aren’t that harmful for kids, compared to divorce. I don’t have the cites for this right now, but I used to read a lot on this (Wallerstein’s books, for instance). The question is, which is your family? I can’t quite tell from your posts. Is your husband consistently angry, or was the situation you mentioned a one-off?
Another thing to bear in mind is that a lot of psychological stuff is hereditary. For instance, both my husband and I have some mildly autistic features, so SURPRISE! we have at least one mildly autistic child. You have your issues and it would not surprise me at all if your husband had one or two psychological things going on (this stuff is not one per customer–it’s possible to collect the whole set). So, it would not be surprising if part of the difficulty with your kids is that they have inherited certain features from the two of you which make them more difficult than the average child. On the one hand, that makes life harder, but on the other hand, it’s reason for empathy and understanding toward them. When my daughter was about 6, she was falling out of her chair at meals and very slow to get dressed (I was dressing her for school until she was nearly 8). Only with time did it dawn on me that she had real physical disabilities that needed to be taken care of (a very weak core and poor fine motor skills–very typical of autism spectrum children). So she saw a therapist for gross motor stuff and did therapeutic horseback riding and we did a home program of training on how to do zippers, buttons, and so forth and now that she’s nearly 12, her issues are much more subtle than they were 5 years ago. Anyway, the point of that story was that initially, I thought she was doing all of that stuff (for instance, the falling out of chairs) on purpose and just to annoy me. That turned out to be not at all the case.
Oh, and by the way, it’s quite typical for fathers of special needs children to be in huge denial about their children’s condition (my MIL is a psychologist and she says that’s quite common). For a variety of reasons, it takes them much, much longer to come to terms with the fact that there is something different about their children. I don’t know if any of your children are special needs, but it would certainly not surprise me. I’d also add that in my experience, men who are themselves somewhere on the autism spectrum tend to be particularly obtuse about kids. One of our kids’ grandfathers once gave me a very rough time during a visit when our oldest kids were 3 and 1 and I was really struggling with them. Grandpa said, “Why is she having such a hard time? Look at all the women who have 5 kids and do just fine!” Needless to say, grandpa had never had 5 kids at home. Grandpa had never even had 3 kids at home, but grandpa was sure that it was no big deal. That story may remind you of somebody you know.
Best wishes!
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Xantippe
Guest
irishmom2 said:
“Tell him you will only go if you get to decide where you are going this time. And tell him if he picks up that phone, you are going home. Bring your set of keys with you, and if he picks up the phone, get up and leave.”
Exactly.
With both the kids and the husband, there needs to be a retraining program so that they understand that you mean what you say and you say what you mean and you will follow through. I know it’s hard when you’re pregnant to have that kind of energy and follow through, but that just means that you need to limit yourself to requests that you are able to follow through on.
You don’t need to do anything huge and drastic to get results, but you do need to be consistent in small things.
With regard to your husband’s “business,” I think you should have a meeting and discuss a schedule and a kill date. In fact, your night out is a perfect opportunity. You should be meeting regularly to discuss the financial side of the business (is it making money? is he spending money on it?). Tell him that while you understand the need to throw himself totally into working his business, there has to be a deadline beyond which he will stop putting family money into it and he will go looking for a conventional job. (And it doesn’t matter if it’s low-paying–a job where they pay $10 an hour is WAY better than a job where they have you spending $1,000 a month.) Don’t be emotional. Just speak plainly and firmly.
My family is very big into small business (I have a relative who runs a cafe, a gift shop, a white water business and is just getting into ranching) and I talk a lot with my relatives about their businesses. My family makes a lot of money in business, and none of them do it the network marketing way. I think one of the things you are up against is that these people use a veneer of financial sophistication (“your wife wouldn’t understand–she’s just a housewife” or “don’t worry if she doesn’t like it in the beginning–she’ll like the money”) while using the same sort of mind games on your husband that he is trying to use on others. Real business people make pennies squeak when they are spending on their businesses and they only spend money that they can afford to lose.
I’d also look around the web for stories of people who have done the same network marketing business and ask him to read some with you. There should be a bunch from people who felt they were lied to or who got into trouble doing the “fake it till you make it” stuff.
Good luck!
“Tell him you will only go if you get to decide where you are going this time. And tell him if he picks up that phone, you are going home. Bring your set of keys with you, and if he picks up the phone, get up and leave.”
Exactly.
With both the kids and the husband, there needs to be a retraining program so that they understand that you mean what you say and you say what you mean and you will follow through. I know it’s hard when you’re pregnant to have that kind of energy and follow through, but that just means that you need to limit yourself to requests that you are able to follow through on.
You don’t need to do anything huge and drastic to get results, but you do need to be consistent in small things.
With regard to your husband’s “business,” I think you should have a meeting and discuss a schedule and a kill date. In fact, your night out is a perfect opportunity. You should be meeting regularly to discuss the financial side of the business (is it making money? is he spending money on it?). Tell him that while you understand the need to throw himself totally into working his business, there has to be a deadline beyond which he will stop putting family money into it and he will go looking for a conventional job. (And it doesn’t matter if it’s low-paying–a job where they pay $10 an hour is WAY better than a job where they have you spending $1,000 a month.) Don’t be emotional. Just speak plainly and firmly.
My family is very big into small business (I have a relative who runs a cafe, a gift shop, a white water business and is just getting into ranching) and I talk a lot with my relatives about their businesses. My family makes a lot of money in business, and none of them do it the network marketing way. I think one of the things you are up against is that these people use a veneer of financial sophistication (“your wife wouldn’t understand–she’s just a housewife” or “don’t worry if she doesn’t like it in the beginning–she’ll like the money”) while using the same sort of mind games on your husband that he is trying to use on others. Real business people make pennies squeak when they are spending on their businesses and they only spend money that they can afford to lose.
I’d also look around the web for stories of people who have done the same network marketing business and ask him to read some with you. There should be a bunch from people who felt they were lied to or who got into trouble doing the “fake it till you make it” stuff.
Good luck!
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DJgang
Guest
My marriage didn’t start changing until I started praying FOR my husband instead of ABOUT him. Kids running everywhere, house dirty, school to do, I felt so alone. But guess what, my husband was lonely too. Not until I was able to explain to him that I’m unable to be there for him right now, and that I NEEDED him. I had to tell him. I had to literally spell it out and tell him that I wasn’t strong as he thought. His hug at that moment meant so much. Men can’t read minds and often have to be reminded gently what we need. Anyway, that’s my thoughts. I’m praying for you both.
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Xantippe
Guest
Another thing, as part of your husband’s deprogramming (because face it–it is like he’s joined a cult) I think you need to get him into a personal finance course of some kind. Dave Ramsey’s Financial Peace University is very good (9 weeks, with a class once a week). There should be a bunch of classes running in your area. See if you can talk your way into a scholarship or a partial scholarship and then and then do it with your husband as your date night (I would scholarship you if you PM me). Here’s the preview to show your husband:
daveramsey.com/fpu/preview/
It’s about 8 minutes, and at the beginning, Dave Ramsey is describing how as a 20-something he borrowed his way into a real estate empire and then lost it all, and how scared he was as a young father and husband.
Doing the course is a good way to meet people, by the way. The Baptist church I did it at had childcare for the class.
Best wishes!
daveramsey.com/fpu/preview/
It’s about 8 minutes, and at the beginning, Dave Ramsey is describing how as a 20-something he borrowed his way into a real estate empire and then lost it all, and how scared he was as a young father and husband.
Doing the course is a good way to meet people, by the way. The Baptist church I did it at had childcare for the class.
Best wishes!
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flufinonis
Guest
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Baby_Bach
Guest
I agree. Be consistent, and stand by what you say. I have been thinking of that movie fireproof… have you seen that? It is about a couple who practically hated each other, and were filing for divorce and the husband did the ‘love dare’ challenge on his wife and even when he did not get a response from her, he kept up with it, in the end saving his marriage. I’m not saying this would work for you, but could be worth a try? Did you ever think of trying something like that? If you do, this is one of those things you have to consistent about, because you will not always get a response, things take time. HE needs to change, that is obvious.
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TSB4
Guest
Well friends, it’s pretty clear he is in no way going to change. I told him today that I didn’t want to go to the casino and could I pick the place. He said he already had this planned with his network marketing friends and that I could come if I wanted. We then ha a conversation about how marriages should work and how selfish he’s being. He didn’t care one bit and said I was annoying because he feels he can’t go anywhere without me being upset about it. Saying how he wants to do what he wants and doesn’t want to be stopped. He feels he should be able to live his life and it’s not his fault that I never want to go anywhere.
Excuse me for not wanting to take lavish trips with money we DONT have. Excuse me for not wanting to travel to another state at the drop if a dime I go to a casino I hang with your friends. Excuse me for wanting a better relationship with US. So i told him since in his little world, he’s the only one in it, to pack his things and stay with his mother. Come back for the rest of his stuff when he’s ready. That way he doesn’t need to feel like I’m stopping him from living his life. He can be free to do whatever he wants, be on his phone and internet as long as he wants. He doesn’t want to go to counseling and all he thinks about is himself. He’s the most selfish person I know and I don’t want him around anymore.
Excuse me for not wanting to take lavish trips with money we DONT have. Excuse me for not wanting to travel to another state at the drop if a dime I go to a casino I hang with your friends. Excuse me for wanting a better relationship with US. So i told him since in his little world, he’s the only one in it, to pack his things and stay with his mother. Come back for the rest of his stuff when he’s ready. That way he doesn’t need to feel like I’m stopping him from living his life. He can be free to do whatever he wants, be on his phone and internet as long as he wants. He doesn’t want to go to counseling and all he thinks about is himself. He’s the most selfish person I know and I don’t want him around anymore.
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pianistclare
Guest
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pianistclare
Guest
What was his response? Did he lash out, or agree to some space?
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mommamaree
Guest
TSB4,
I am so sorry about this. As sad as this is, I really think you did the right thing. I am flabbergasted at how he treats you and the children. This really is starting to sound like he is a narcissist. I do hope some time apart will help him to wake up to reality, and see what he is about to lose. I will keep praying for you and your family.
Thank you for updating us. We are all thinking of you and praying for you.
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TSB4
Guest
His response was he’s tired of hearing that I’m tired and want to separate, yet, still refuses to take responsibility for his part in my feelings.
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Irishmom2
Guest
Yes, this exactly.
What was his reaction? Did he do as you asked or just act like you hadn’t even spoken? If that is what he did, he will probably come home and try to act the same as he always has.
As someone else said, pack him a bag of clothes and have it ready for him. Tell him to go to his moms and stay there until he decides he wants to be a part of your lives.
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TSB4
Guest
Oh, and he told me “don’t call me and ask me to come back. I swear to god this is it.”
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TSB4
Guest
He is very much a narcissist. I’m so infuriated at this point. I’ve given 10 years of myself and put myself to the back burner for someone not to leave 10 years later, with 4 children and one on the way. How stupid was I to keep putting off school and work to be at his neck and call? Ugh!!
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Irishmom2
Guest
Sounds like he wants to go. Don’t beg him to stay.
The only difference now is that he won’t physically be in your home. From what you say, he isn’t there for you or his children.
Do not think he won’t have to support you and your children financially, so this is not all on you. Now is the time to gather up your courage and put your trust in God.
The only difference now is that he won’t physically be in your home. From what you say, he isn’t there for you or his children.
Do not think he won’t have to support you and your children financially, so this is not all on you. Now is the time to gather up your courage and put your trust in God.
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TSB4
Guest
I have this burning anger inside me. I honestly can’t even believe this is what my life has come to. I am starting to hate myself because it’s my fault.
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Baby_Bach
Guest
I am so sad to hear this is what he said.
I would hope there is some tinge of love still in his heart that would hunger him to *want *to come back, not at your begging, but at his choosing. Praying for him to have a change of heart.
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TSB4
Guest
Nope, he won’t. Beause he has too much pride. Because I was the one who said leave, he won’t come back. Unless he turns it around on me to make me out to be the bad guy and himself the victim and have me apologize. He always does this. I doubt I will even answer my phone for him.I am so sad to hear this is what he said.
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Irishmom2
Guest
How is it your fault? Is this what he has told you? Has he blamed you for all that is wrong in your lives? Well he us wrong. Please know that.
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