I don't understand how some of my trad. latin mass going friends are anti-semitic!

[chosen_people]

The Jews are to be enslaved.
The Fathers applied the story of Jacob and Esau to the relationship between the Church and the Synagogue.
“‘Come, ascend we unto the mount of the Lord, and unto the house of the God of Jacob.’ Not of Esau, the former son, but of Jacob, the second; that is, of our ‘people’, whose ‘mount’ is Christ.” [Tertullian: A Reply to the Jews]
“Two peoples were foretold, the elder and the younger; that is, the old people of the Jews, and the new one which should consist of us. ‘And the Lord said unto Rebecca, Two nations are in thy womb, and two peoples shall be separated from thy belly; and the one people shall overcome the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.’” [St Cyprian: Three Books of Testimonies Against the Jews, I:19]

and used it to deduce that the role of the Jew was to serve the Christian as a slave.
“For God ordained ‘two peoples and two nations’ … Beyond doubt, through the edict of the divine utterance, the prior and ‘older’ people - that is, the Jewish - must necessarily sserve the ‘younger’; and the ‘younger’ people - that is, the Christian - overcome the ‘older’ … For thus has the ‘younger’ - that is, posterior - people overcome the ‘older people’, while it attains the grace of divine favour, from which Israel has been divorced.”
[Tertullian: A Reply to the Jews]
“The Jews, according to what had before been foretold, had departed from God, and had lost God’s favour, which had been given them in past time, and had been promised them for the future; while the Christians had succeeded to their place, deserving well of the Lord by faith, and coming out of all nations and from the whole world.”
[St Cyprian: Against the Jews]

“That saying, ‘The elder shall serve the younger’, is understood by our writers, almost without exception, to mean that the elder people, the Jews, shall serve the younger people, the Christians … when it was said, ‘The one people shall overcome the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger,’ that prophecy meant some greater thing; and what is that except what is evidently fulfilled in the Jews and in the Christians? … He [Christ] is the Lord of His brother, because His people rules over the Jews.” [St Augustine: The City of God, XVI:35, 37]

 

[chosen_people]

“…the Jews three times endured bondage, very harsh and most severe: but none of these came upon them unpredicted… First, I shall speak of the prediction of their slavery in Egypt. Surely, in speaking to Abraham, God said: ‘Know for certain that your posterity will be strangers in a land not their own; they shall be subjected to slavery and shall be oppressed four hundred years’ [Genesis 15:13] … Come now and let us turn our discussion to the second captivity. What one is that? The bondage in Babylon. Jeremiah certainly foretold it exactly when he said: ‘Thus says the Lord: Only after seventy years have elapsed for Babylon will I visit you and fulfil for you my promise to bring you back to this place’ [Jeremiah 29:10] … What, then, is this third captivity? It is the bondage that came upon them in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes… When the prophets predicted the other captivities, they spoke not only of the captivity but also of the length of time it was appointed for each bondage to last; for this present captivity, however, they set no time but, to the contrary, said that the desolation would endure until the end.”
[St John Chrysostom: Six Homilies Against the Jews]

“The Jew will live under the yoke of slavery without end. God hates the Jews.”
[St John Chrysostom: Six Homilies Against the Jews]

“The Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord.”
[Pope Innocent III: To the Archbishops of Sens and Paris]

“Crucifiers of Christ ought to be held in continual subjection.”
[Pope Innocent III, Epistle to the Hierarchy of France, 1205]

“It is fitting for Jews to serve Christians, but not for Christians to serve Jews. On the contrary, the Jews, as slaves rejected by that Saviour Whose death they wickedly contrived, should recognize themselves in fact and in creed the slaves of those whom the death of Christ has set free, even as it has rendered them bondmen.”
[Pope Innocent III: “Etsi Judaeos”, Decretal cited by Pope Benedict XIV]

“Ungrateful for favours and forgetful of benefits, the Jews return insult for kindness and impious contempt for goodness. They ought to know the yoke of perpetual enslavement because of their guilt. See to it that the perfidious Jews never in the future grow insolent, but that they always suffer publicly the shame of their sin in servile fear.” [Pope Gregory IX, Epistle to the Hierarchy in Germany, 1233 A.D.]

“It would be licit to hold Jews, because of their crimes, in perpetual servitude, and therefore the princes may regard the possessions of Jews as belonging to the State.” [St. Thomas Aquinas: De Regimine Judaeorum]

“And that you order both the aforesaid abusive books [The Talmud] condemned by the same doctors and generally all the books with their glosses which were examined and condemned by them to be burned by fire wherever they can be found throughout your entire kingdom, strictly forbidding that Jews henceforth have Christian nurses or servants, that the sons of a free woman may not serve the sons of a bondswoman, but as slaves condemned by the Lord, whose death they wickedly plotted, they at least outwardly recognize themselves as slaves of those whom the death of Christ made free and themselves slaves. So we may commend the zeal of your sincerity in the Lord with due praises.” [Pope Innocent IV: To King Louis IX]

“We declare that the evidence of Christians is to be accepted against Jews in every case, since Jews employ their own witnesses against Christians - and that those who prefer Jews to Christians in this matter are to lie under anathema, since Jews ought to be slaves to Christians and to be supported by them on the grounds of humanity alone.” [Third Oecumenical Council of the Lateran: Canon 26]

source:geocities.com/pharsea/Perfidy.html

I hope these are enough quotes but I assure you there is no lack if you require more

 

[DLT]

“…the Jews three times endured bondage, very harsh and most severe: but none of these came upon them unpredicted… First, I shall speak of the prediction of their slavery in Egypt. Surely, in speaking to Abraham, God said: ‘Know for certain that your posterity will be strangers in a land not their own; they shall be subjected to slavery and shall be oppressed four hundred years’ [Genesis 15:13] … Come now and let us turn our discussion to the second captivity. What one is that? The bondage in Babylon. Jeremiah certainly foretold it exactly when he said: ‘Thus says the Lord: Only after seventy years have elapsed for Babylon will I visit you and fulfil for you my promise to bring you back to this place’ [Jeremiah 29:10] … What, then, is this third captivity? It is the bondage that came upon them in the days of Antiochus Epiphanes… When the prophets predicted the other captivities, they spoke not only of the captivity but also of the length of time it was appointed for each bondage to last; for this present captivity, however, they set no time but, to the contrary, said that the desolation would endure until the end.”
[St John Chrysostom: Six Homilies Against the Jews]

“The Jew will live under the yoke of slavery without end. God hates the Jews.”
[St John Chrysostom: Six Homilies Against the Jews]

“The Jews, by their own guilt, are consigned to perpetual servitude because they crucified the Lord.”
[Pope Innocent III: To the Archbishops of Sens and Paris]

“Crucifiers of Christ ought to be held in continual subjection.”
[Pope Innocent III, Epistle to the Hierarchy of France, 1205]

“It is fitting for Jews to serve Christians, but not for Christians to serve Jews. On the contrary, the Jews, as slaves rejected by that Saviour Whose death they wickedly contrived, should recognize themselves in fact and in creed the slaves of those whom the death of Christ has set free, even as it has rendered them bondmen.”
[Pope Innocent III: “Etsi Judaeos”, Decretal cited by Pope Benedict XIV]

“Ungrateful for favours and forgetful of benefits, the Jews return insult for kindness and impious contempt for goodness. They ought to know the yoke of perpetual enslavement because of their guilt. See to it that the perfidious Jews never in the future grow insolent, but that they always suffer publicly the shame of their sin in servile fear.” [Pope Gregory IX, Epistle to the Hierarchy in Germany, 1233 A.D.]

“It would be licit to hold Jews, because of their crimes, in perpetual servitude, and therefore the princes may regard the possessions of Jews as belonging to the State.” [St. Thomas Aquinas: De Regimine Judaeorum]

“And that you order both the aforesaid abusive books [The Talmud] condemned by the same doctors and generally all the books with their glosses which were examined and condemned by them to be burned by fire wherever they can be found throughout your entire kingdom, strictly forbidding that Jews henceforth have Christian nurses or servants, that the sons of a free woman may not serve the sons of a bondswoman, but as slaves condemned by the Lord, whose death they wickedly plotted, they at least outwardly recognize themselves as slaves of those whom the death of Christ made free and themselves slaves. So we may commend the zeal of your sincerity in the Lord with due praises.” [Pope Innocent IV: To King Louis IX]

“We declare that the evidence of Christians is to be accepted against Jews in every case, since Jews employ their own witnesses against Christians - and that those who prefer Jews to Christians in this matter are to lie under anathema, since Jews ought to be slaves to Christians and to be supported by them on the grounds of humanity alone.” [Third Oecumenical Council of the Lateran: Canon 26]

source:geocities.com/pharsea/Perfidy.html

I hope these are enough quotes but I assure you there is no lack if you require more

 

[DLT]

If one goes to the home page of the website that the previous poster, who calls himself “Chosen People”, put in his last e-mail, you will find that the person on the website not only makes a false, calumnous, and according to us Christians blasphemous, accusation against Jesus Christ, but also makes a calumnous statement about King David. The man who runs the website describes himself as a “gay” Catholic or Christian. This man twists both the Old and New Testament to fit his immoral conclusions.

He says that Sodom was only destroyed because of inhospitality. This is totally incorrect according to the Old Testament (the Torah). In the situation in the Bible, it cleary states that “the final straw which broke the camel’s back” was when the men of Sodom tried to seduce an angel in the form of a man who was in Lot’s house. The laws of Moses called such acts abominations.

Also, this person writes that the male bonding between King David and Jonathan was of a homosexual nature. I know of no decent rabbi, minister or priest who would interpret the relationship in that manner. King David said that the love between him and Jonathan surpassed the love of women because Jonathan had saved his life. This male bonding happens many times with men during war time and has nothing to do with homosexuality or homosexual acts. It was not “eros” love, but “agape” (brotherly) love between the two men. If it had been otherwise, one of Israel’s prophets would surely have mentioned and comdemned the immoral situation.

Furthermore, this man tries to imply that Christ’s love for St. John and perhaps some of the other Apostles was of a homosexual nature. There, again, Christ’s love for the Apostles was only godly, “agape” love, not “eros”.

He also says that homosexual acts were not forbidden in the beginning of Christianity. Nothing could be further from the truth. Both the writings of St. Paul, an unmarried priest, and the book of Jude forbade homosexual acts, and they say that those who do such things and do not repent will not enter the Kingdom of God.

Since this person twists the teachings of the Old and New Testament to confirm others in sin, how can one trust his interpretation of the writings of the early Church Father’s and popes? Therefore, I do not.

 

[jj2011]

That was quite a catena from Chosen, although I must say that the use of Tertullian to suggest that Christians were advocating enslavement of Jews is preposterous. At that time, Christians were still in the catacombs and were in no position to enslave anybody.

It’s a lengthy disputation between Christians and Jews where to be “enslaved” is understood spiritually, meaning to be in idolatry.
I apologize for the extremely lengthy quote from the opening of this treatise, but I think it’s necessary to show how injurious and misleading it can be to give a bunch of quotes with no context.
The treatise has nothing to do with physical enslavement.

QUOTE:

…this fact—that Gentiles are admissible to God’s Law—is enough to prevent Israel from priding himself on the notion that “the Gentiles are accounted as a little drop of a bucket,” or else as “dust out of a threshing-floor:” although we have God Himself as an adequate engager and faithful promiser, in that He promised to Abraham that “in his seed should be blest all nations of the earth;” and that out of the womb of Rebecca “two peoples and two nations were about to proceed,”—of course those of the Jews, that is, of Israel; and of the Gentiles, that is ours. Each, then, was called a people and a nation; lest, from the nuncupative appellation, any should dare to claim for himself the privilege of grace. For God ordained “two peoples and two nations” as about to proceed out of the womb of one woman: nor did grace make distinction in the nuncupative appellation, but in the order of birth; to the effect that, which ever was to be prior in proceeding from the womb, should be subjected to"the less," that is, the posterior. For thus unto Rebecca did God speak: " Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples shall be divided from your bowels; and people shall overcome people, and the greater shall serve the less." Accordingly, since the people or nation of the Jews is anterior in time, and “greater” through the grace of primary favour in the Law, whereas ours is understood to be “less” in the age of times, as having in the last era of the world attained the knowledge of divine mercy: beyond doubt, through the edict of the divine utterance, the prior and “greater” people—that is, the Jewish—must necessarily serve the “less;” and the “less” people—that is, the Christian—overcome the “greater.” For, withal, according to the memorial records of the divine Scriptures, the people of the Jews—that is, the more ancient—quite forsook God, and did degrading service to idols, and, abandoning the Divinity, was surrendered to images; while “the people” said to Aaron, “Make us gods to go before us.” And when the gold out of the necklaces of the women and the rings of the men had been wholly smelted by fire, and there had come forth a calf-like head, to this figment Israel with one consent (abandoning God) gave honour, saying, “These are the gods who brought us from the land of Egypt.” For thus, in the later times in which kings were governing them, did they again, in conjunction with Jeroboam, worship golden kine, and groves, and enslave themselves to Baal. Whence is proved that they have ever been depicted, out of the volume of the divine Scriptures, as guilty of the crime of idolatry; whereas our “less”—that is, posterior—people, quitting the idols which formerly it used slavishly to serve, has been converted to the same God from whom Israel, as we have above related, had departed. For thus has the “less”—that is, posterior—people overcome the “greater people,” while it attains the grace of divine favour, from which Israel has been divorced.

 

[chosen_people]

That was quite a catena from Chosen, although I must say that the use of Tertullian to suggest that Christians were advocating enslavement of Jews is preposterous. At that time, Christians were still in the catacombs and were in no position to enslave anybody.

It’s a lengthy disputation between Christians and Jews where to be “enslaved” is understood spiritually, meaning to be in idolatry.
I apologize for the extremely lengthy quote from the opening of this treatise, but I think it’s necessary to show how injurious and misleading it can be to give a bunch of quotes with no context.
The treatise has nothing to do with physical enslavement.

QUOTE:

…this fact—that Gentiles are admissible to God’s Law—is enough to prevent Israel from priding himself on the notion that “the Gentiles are accounted as a little drop of a bucket,” or else as “dust out of a threshing-floor:” although we have God Himself as an adequate engager and faithful promiser, in that He promised to Abraham that “in his seed should be blest all nations of the earth;” and that out of the womb of Rebecca “two peoples and two nations were about to proceed,”—of course those of the Jews, that is, of Israel; and of the Gentiles, that is ours. Each, then, was called a people and a nation; lest, from the nuncupative appellation, any should dare to claim for himself the privilege of grace. For God ordained “two peoples and two nations” as about to proceed out of the womb of one woman: nor did grace make distinction in the nuncupative appellation, but in the order of birth; to the effect that, which ever was to be prior in proceeding from the womb, should be subjected to"the less," that is, the posterior. For thus unto Rebecca did God speak: " Two nations are in your womb, and two peoples shall be divided from your bowels; and people shall overcome people, and the greater shall serve the less." Accordingly, since the people or nation of the Jews is anterior in time, and “greater” through the grace of primary favour in the Law, whereas ours is understood to be “less” in the age of times, as having in the last era of the world attained the knowledge of divine mercy: beyond doubt, through the edict of the divine utterance, the prior and “greater” people—that is, the Jewish—must necessarily serve the “less;” and the “less” people—that is, the Christian—overcome the “greater.” For, withal, according to the memorial records of the divine Scriptures, the people of the Jews—that is, the more ancient—quite forsook God, and did degrading service to idols, and, abandoning the Divinity, was surrendered to images; while “the people” said to Aaron, “Make us gods to go before us.” And when the gold out of the necklaces of the women and the rings of the men had been wholly smelted by fire, and there had come forth a calf-like head, to this figment Israel with one consent (abandoning God) gave honour, saying, “These are the gods who brought us from the land of Egypt.” For thus, in the later times in which kings were governing them, did they again, in conjunction with Jeroboam, worship golden kine, and groves, and enslave themselves to Baal. Whence is proved that they have ever been depicted, out of the volume of the divine Scriptures, as guilty of the crime of idolatry; whereas our “less”—that is, posterior—people, quitting the idols which formerly it used slavishly to serve, has been converted to the same God from whom Israel, as we have above related, had departed. For thus has the “less”—that is, posterior—people overcome the “greater people,” while it attains the grace of divine favour, from which Israel has been divorced.

I chose that particular page because of its covenience. The quotes on the website were given sources and to the best of knowledge are one hundred per cent accurate. I have no doubt that all the quotes may be found in the original and on thousands of other websites

You only attempt to contradict the wish for the enslavement of Jews. That in itself would seem to indicate the general accuracy of the other statements and sources.

 

[DLT]

Oh! come on “Chosen People”, you can’t be serious. That one website you mentioned is written by a practicing homosexual. You really cannot believe his quotes are totally–if at all–accurate. If you do, you really know nothing about your own Jewish religion, or Christianity.

 

[DLT]

My apologies “Chosen People” for my last e-mail. I sent it out too soon. I now realize you were talking about another website which you say is accurate. I have not read it.

 

[jj2011]

I chose that particular page because of its covenience. The quotes on the website were given sources and to the best of knowledge are one hundred per cent accurate. I have no doubt that all the quotes may be found in the original and on thousands of other websites

You only attempt to contradict the wish for the enslavement of Jews. That in itself would seem to indicate the general accuracy of the other statements and sources.

Chosen, I didn’t say that every quote was inaccurate; but there’s such a lack of context that one hardly knows where to start.

The “perfidy” thing, for example-- we’re supposed to believe that Jews are perfidious, not withstanding that, in the Christian faith, the greatest saints were Jews or their forerunners.

As it happens, I have studied Christian Latin, and in patristic Latin (St. Cyprian, Ambrosiaster), perfidia means unbelief or at worst faithlessness. I hardly think it news that non-Messianic Jews are unbelieving towards the proposition that Jesus is the Son of God, for otherwise they would be Christians.

We’re told that Jews are cursed, although I’m not sure what evils we are allegedly allowed to visit upon the Jews because of this curse-- either enslave them or massacre them, apparently.

I only know what I was taught growing up, where two of my best friends were Jewish. One family in particular always went out of its way to be kind to me, kindnesses I remember still, thirty and even forty years later-- probably because nobody told me that they were cursed.

If I had been told this, my reaction would have been one of compassion, as I feel it for blacks, who in this country were enslaved and made victims of crimes because they were allegedly “cursed.” The one reaction I would never have is the notion of doing evil to people on the grounds that centuries ago, in some indefinable way, they were cursed.

You produced a quotation about the deportations in Slovakia. What can you possibly prove by it? If you wish to prove that some Christians collaborated with the Nazis, I would have agreed even without any quotations.

If you’re suggesting that theology was somehow behind these crimes, you must convince this forum how it was that so many priests and religious and other Christians risked their lives
to shelter the “cursed” Jews. Every Jew in Poland was under a death sentence, as was any Christian who would dare help them.
Not a few either accepted this fate, or risked this fate for assisting Jews or for other anti-Nazi activities.

If what you are attempting to prove is that Christian theology in some sense contributed to Nazi crimes, then the forum must hear about every Christian who was Dachauized, Buchenwaldized, or in whatever way sent to an early grave to prove otherwise.

 

[chosen_people]

Chosen, I didn’t say that every quote was inaccurate; but there’s such a lack of context that one hardly knows where to start.

The “perfidy” thing, for example-- we’re supposed to believe that Jews are perfidious, not withstanding that, in the Christian faith, the greatest saints were Jews or their forerunners.

As it happens, I have studied Christian Latin, and in patristic Latin (St. Cyprian, Ambrosiaster), perfidia means unbelief or at worst faithlessness. I hardly think it news that non-Messianic Jews are unbelieving towards the proposition that Jesus is the Son of God, for otherwise they would be Christians.

We’re told that Jews are cursed, although I’m not sure what evils we are allegedly allowed to visit upon the Jews because of this curse-- either enslave them or massacre them, apparently.

I only know what I was taught growing up, where two of my best friends were Jewish. One family in particular always went out of its way to be kind to me, kindnesses I remember still, thirty and even forty years later-- probably because nobody told me that they were cursed.

If I had been told this, my reaction would have been one of compassion, as I feel it for blacks, who in this country were enslaved and made victims of crimes because they were allegedly “cursed.” The one reaction I would never have is the notion of doing evil to people on the grounds that centuries ago, in some indefinable way, they were cursed.

You produced a quotation about the deportations in Slovakia. What can you possibly prove by it? If you wish to prove that some Christians collaborated with the Nazis, I would have agreed even without any quotations.

If you’re suggesting that theology was somehow behind these crimes, you must convince this forum how it was that so many priests and religious and other Christians risked their lives
to shelter the “cursed” Jews. Every Jew in Poland was under a death sentence, as was any Christian who would dare help them.
Not a few either accepted this fate, or risked this fate for assisting Jews or for other anti-Nazi activities.

If what you are attempting to prove is that Christian theology in some sense contributed to Nazi crimes, then the forum must hear about every Christian who was Dachauized, Buchenwaldized, or in whatever way sent to an early grave to prove otherwise.

The subject of this thread is why some of his traditional Catholic friends are expressing antisemitic sentiments.

My own personal interest in this forum (besides getting to practice my english) has been to understand and learn about Catholic attitudes towards Jews both in the present and in the past.

Any comment that “Catholics” are by nature and religion antisemitic is patently false. If this were true, surely the person who started this thread wouldn’t have been bothered by antisemitic comments against Jews. If Catholics were all antisemites then we not find thousands of cases of righteous gentiles who risked their lives to save Jews. However It is equally absurd to claim that there has not been in the past and that there is not today antiJewish attiudes among Catholics that have led to tragic results.

It is that very dichotomy and ambivalence towards Jews among Catholics which is not only at the centre of my interest but also at the centre of this thread.

 

[DLT]

“Chosen People”, I do not no any one in the United States who wants to make slaves of the Jewish people. Most of the people in this country have the philosophy of Abraham Lincoln, “As I would not be a slave, I would not own one.”

 

[chosen_people]

“Chosen People”, I do not no any one in the United States who wants to make slaves of the Jewish people. Most of the people in this country have the philosophy of Abraham Lincoln, “As I would not be a slave, I would not own one.”

of course not. You’re missing the general and important points.

 

[DLT]

I do know the points you are trying to make: one is that some Catholics and others in the past might have made statements that made you think, rightly or wrongly, that Catholics or other Christians wanted to make slaves of Jewish people. You must remember, though, that during many of the times mentioned on your websites most religions had slaves and had been slaves themselves at some time. The Israelites had been slaves in Egypt, and they in turn had slaves when they were freed. Hagar (the foremother of the Arabs was a bondservant to Sarah, although the Musllims deny it). That is the source of the fighting between the Arabs and the Jews today, and well-educated Christians know that. Many of the first Christians had been or were slaves, and some still are second-class citizens in some Muslim countries.

Furthermore, one cannot always judge those times by these times. None of my friends, of whatever religion now, would want to take anyone into slavery, but they would fight to keep their freedom, too. Don’t we all?

 

[latinmasslover]

I was asked about this quote earlier:

New Saints and Blesseds of the Catholic Church by Ferdinand Holbock; page 184; canonized by Pope John Paul II.

St. Teresa Benedicta, formerly Edith Stein (Jew who converted and became a Discalced Carmelite nun), said in reference to the persecution of the the Jews during WWII:

This is the shadow of the Cross, which is falling on my people. Oh, if they would only come to understand! This is the fulfillment of the curse which my people called down upon themselves.

She was proud to have been born of the Chosen People, she never hated the Jewish race, and still managed to make a statement like that. Not a statement to be ignored.

 

[chosen_people]

I was asked about this quote earlier:

New Saints and Blesseds of the Catholic Church by Ferdinand Holbock; page 184; canonized by Pope John Paul II.

St. Teresa Benedicta, formerly Edith Stein (Jew who converted and became a Discalced Carmelite nun), said in reference to the persecution of the the Jews during WWII:

This is the shadow of the Cross, which is falling on my people. Oh, if they would only come to understand! This is the fulfillment of the curse which my people called down upon themselves.

She was proud to have been born of the Chosen People, she never hated the Jewish race, and still managed to make a statement like that. Not a statement to be ignored.

The massacre of 1/3 of the Jewish people in the holocaust as a curse by God because the Jews rejected Catholicism? Hitler as God’s instrument on earth to carry out God’s punishment?

 

[Like]

The massacre of 1/3 of the Jewish people in the holocaust as a curse by God because the Jews rejected Catholicism? Hitler as God’s instrument on earth to carry out God’s punishment?

Sorry, but I don’t believe that’s what St. Teresa Benedicta, formerly Edith Stein, said. Nor has any other Catholic said that. I pray for all nonbelievers of Christ, that their eyes be open to the truth.

 

[Valke2]

St. Teresa Benedicta, formerly Edith Stein (Jew who converted and became a Discalced Carmelite nun), said in reference to the persecution of the the Jews during WWII:

This is the shadow of the Cross, which is falling on my people. Oh, if they would only come to understand! This is the fulfillment of the curse which my people called down upon themselves.

I’ve yet to see any confirmation that she actually said this. Any sources to this alleged quote would be appreciated. If she said it, then I assume the Church believes this. (sounds ridiculous).

 

[latinmasslover]

I can see that not only do some pick and choose doctrine but they also pick and choose what parts of a statement they read.

for a reference see post #174.

 

[GerardP]

The subject of this thread is why some of his traditional Catholic friends are expressing antisemitic sentiments.

My own personal interest in this forum (besides getting to practice my english) has been to understand and learn about Catholic attitudes towards Jews both in the present and in the past.

Any comment that “Catholics” are by nature and religion antisemitic is patently false. If this were true, surely the person who started this thread wouldn’t have been bothered by antisemitic comments against Jews. If Catholics were all antisemites then we not find thousands of cases of righteous gentiles who risked their lives to save Jews. However It is equally absurd to claim that there has not been in the past and that there is not today antiJewish attiudes among Catholics that have led to tragic results.

It is that very dichotomy and ambivalence towards Jews among Catholics which is not only at the centre of my interest but also at the centre of this thread.

The funny part of this is, if we reversed the words “Catholic” and “Jews” and replaced “Anti-Semitic” with “Anti-Catholic” the statement would be considered anti-semitic to be consistent with your previous posts.

Chosen People,

Does Pope Pius XII rank among those righteous Gentiles you mention? If so, has he been the victim of an unjust attack by prominent jewish leaders and others?

 

[GerardP]

The massacre of 1/3 of the Jewish people in the holocaust as a curse by God because the Jews rejected Catholicism? Hitler as God’s instrument on earth to carry out God’s punishment?

If it were a curse by God, would it be unjust? If God cursed the earth in Genesis and destroyed all but 8 people in the Flood, why is a much smaller chastisement (which included about 70 million people, Catholic, non-Catholic, good and bad alike) so difficult to accept?

What chastisement is too great for rejecting God Himself?