I don't understand the problem with the title "Mary, Mother of God"

[lutherlic]

Sometimes “mother of God” said of Mary is misunderstood.
She is not the mother of God from all eternity, bringing God into existence,
but rather she is the mother of God in TIME, bringing Jesus into THIS world.

I don’t think I would put it like this. God was after all, very much in this world prior to Jesus. Consider the Garden of Eden, the burning bush, the Holy of Holies and the tabernacle, all the people the Lord spoke to, etc.

Also, time is temporary and our Blessed Mother’s place is eternal.

Keep in mind too that Jesus is eternal and always existed as God.

FWIW, I see “mother of God” as simply a shortened “mother of God Incarnate”. It seems to me much of this confusion is avoidable if we simply explain it this way.

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Sometimes “mother of God” said of Mary is misunderstood.
She is not the mother of God from all eternity, bringing God into existence,
but rather she is the mother of God in TIME, bringing Jesus into THIS world.

Since the Son of God is eternally begotten Mary holds a special place in the mind of God. I don’t think the special meaning of her title changes in time or out of time, we still considered her in Heaven the Queen of all the Angels and Saints.

 

[RyanBlack]

Since the Son of God is eternally begotten Mary holds a special place in the mind of God. I don’t think the special meaning of her title changes in time or out of time, we still considered her in Heaven the Queen of all the Angels and Saints.

The Son of God is indeed eternally begotten-but only from the Father. The Blessed Virgin Mother is not the Mother of God from all eternity, and she is in no way whatsoever the source of the divine life of the Son, who receives his divinity from the Father alone. The Son receives only his humanity from the BVM. Nevertheless, because he is one Lord, and he is truly God, we rightly honor the BVM as the Mother of God.

 

[Marybeloved]

Sorry for injecting myself into this conversation but your post gets many things wrong.

I don’t think I would put it like this. God was after all, very much in this world prior to Jesus.

But he said “bringing JESUS into this World” so I really don’t get your objection or how his statement is wrong in anyway at all.

Consider the Garden of Eden, the burning bush, the Holy of Holies and the tabernacle, all the people the Lord spoke to, etc.

None of this negagtes the fact that JESUS came into this world at the incarnation in his mother’s womb. Again, he did not say she brought GOD into this world, he specifically put it as JESUS into the World. None of those prior manifestations made God a subject of this world, a bonafide citizen of the Cosmos- only the incarnation did (aka Jesus Christ).

Also, time is temporary and our Blessed Mother’s place is eternal.

This is not accurate. The incarnation took place IN TIME- NOT ETERNITY. That is our Faith. What you may mean to say is that it has no end. Just like we begin here in the temporal world and will be eternally. But the fact that it has a begin in time makes it precisely what the Poster you were responding to said.

Keep in mind too that Jesus is eternal and always existed as God.

Yeah but that’s precisely what he said.

That’s why he made the distinction (so beautifully, I might add) between God the Son’s existence from eternity and Jesus (the incarnation) beginning in the World from Mary’s womb.

FWIW, I see “mother of God” as simply a shortened “mother of God Incarnate”. It seems to me much of this confusion is avoidable if we simply explain it this way.

If this is the case then should we also avoid calling Jesus, God and refer to him only as God incarnate?

 

[John_Paul_Jones]

Sometimes “mother of God” said of Mary is misunderstood.
She is not the mother of God from all eternity, bringing God into existence,
but rather she is the mother of God in TIME, bringing Jesus into THIS world.

Since the Son of God is eternally begotten Mary holds a special place in the mind of God. I don’t think the special meaning of her title changes in time or out of time, we still considered her in Heaven the Queen of all the Angels and Saints.

The Son of God is indeed eternally begotten-but only from the Father. The Blessed Virgin Mother is not the Mother of God from all eternity, and she is in no way whatsoever the source of the divine life of the Son, who receives his divinity from the Father alone. The Son receives only his humanity from the BVM. Nevertheless, because he is one Lord, and he is truly God, we rightly honor the BVM as the Mother of God.

God is eternal, and God doesn’t change His mind or suddenly have a new thought. If that is true than God knew from all eternity that Mary would hold the title Mother of God and He would know her special place in Salvation History. We can only see Salvation unfold in time, but God can see Mary as the Mother of God outside of time before the Church spoke of her or ever Prophets prophesied about her. So I don’t agree with fred’s “… in TIME” remark, it seems as her only importance was in time on Earth and not in heaven. (I don’t know why he shout the word “time.” And I’m not quite sure why you quote me.)

 

[Cat]

This link to the Christian Research Institute (Bible Answer Man) explains a lot of what evangelical Protestant Christians believe about Mary. It’s a short article.

equip.org/perspectives/the-theotokos

I was evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of my life.

I agree with the poster who said that a lot of evangelical Protestant Christians hold to a Nestorian view of Mary’s role. You can see this in the link above.

**But to be honest, I never remember this debate coming up, mainly because we very seldom referred to Mary outside of reading the Bible. ** We just didn’t talk about here, ever. She is never referred to in the Bible as “Mary, Mother of God,” and so we would never have called her by that title. We didn’t know that title existed. Perhaps our pastors knew about it from the seminary studies of “Catholic false doctrines,” but none of my pastors or teachers ever brought it up.

After all, in evangelical Protestant churches, it’s all about Jesus and never anyone else.

We didn’t learn anything about any of the saints, either. Ever.

I know a lot of Catholics despise the song, “Joseph’s Song,” and believe it is Protestant. I think that it’s worthwihle for these Catholics to remember that for Protestants, this song underscores the very Catholic teaching that Jesus was/is the Son of God. Although the song never mentions Mary, it is a logical step to think, “Jesus is the Son of God and He is also the Son of Mary, therefore Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God…oops, that sounds Catholic!”

So IMO, this song has made a lot of evangelical Protestants think about Mary and feel a little uncomfortable with their viewpoints of her role. So even if you hate the song, be grateful that it is doing a lot of evangelization for Catholicism among Protestants.

 

[GaryTaylor]

It comes down to this…the Hypostatic Union. Hypostatic union: The mystery of the union of the divine nature of Christ with His
human nature, before Mary no human nature existed as God. Thus Jesus Christ has two minds and two wills, united in the Divine Word. Which occurs at His human conception through the Holy Spirit by the Blessed Mothers fiat. Mary’s fiat, as it is called, was a yes to the Unknown. “Let it be done with me according to your word”

God and the Son of God, the HS always existed outside of eternity time. Yes God always knew the plan before, now and after. His plan was implimented through the Blessed Mother thus God/Son of God/HS announced through the Angel Gabriel at the Incarnation. Then the Word became flesh and entered into real-time. A mystery through a Miracle which God has the ability to do as He wills and when He wills, and to whom He wills. A Miracle is the collapse of time by God, who is not subjected to time. Man is subjected to time, not God. And the Son of God as Jesus took on a fully human/divine aspect. By descending to the humility of the flesh as fully human/divine. Thus becomes the living example as does Mary is how to overcome this physical world.

Mary’s fiat “Let it be done to me” was the response that brought joy to the Angels in heaven. Before Mary accepted God will in Faith, the Angels in Heaven already had done so. By her faith and openness to God’s plan, She would help to change the course of history through Her Son Jesus Christ. We, too, are called to say “yes” to Gods will and to build a civilizations of love based not on mans clever thinking, but through the Faith in God and the understanding the world we reside in is His Creation, just as you are.

For God so loved the world that He gave His One and only begotten Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Jesus as Fully Human came to earth as man Fully Human/Divine through the Incarnate. The Virgin Birth. The Word become flesh and dwelled among us! So while you may disagree with Freds wording in essense he is correct.

Perhaps this will help.

google.com/url?q=http://www.thecatholictreasurechest.com/exist.htm&sa=U&ei=rVMAT7D1J4TX0QGLy_ygAg&ved=0CA8QFjAA&sig2=xa06QrJ8XFTUVCpdzq-P8g&usg=AFQjCNGYwe4se3mdAsYZpFBuJb5bX8sOFQ

Here’s the important paragraphs…

Did Christ always exist? Yes

Christ existed for all eternity. He is the only begotten Son of the Father, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Most definately

Did Jesus always exist? [No! the Son of God always existed, not Jesus]

Jesus, the human nature of the Divine person of Christ, did not always exist. [Correct!]

He was born into time. His existence began with His conception in the womb of the Blessed Virgin Mary. [Correct but what also should be understood is that though this is correct, the Miracles performed by Christ show His will extended over Time by His Divinity].

There was no human nature of Christ in heaven before the incarnation of Jesus. [Correct]

Peace

 

[Anna_Scott]

A lot of protestants don’t quite get the 'fully human and fully God" thing. While they claim to be Trinitarian Christians, they really don’t quite understand the Nicene Creed’s implications.

“Mary worship” is a frequent criticism protestants raise against Catholics. In solo scriptora denominations it’s even worse.

Lutherans and Anglicans sort of get it.

If Christ is born of Mary, then logically she is the ‘Mother of God’.

martininthefiel,

Yes, Anglicans get it----at least Anglo Catholics. We believe in the perpetual virginity of Mary, the Assumption, and asking for Mary’s intercession. The only point of disagreement lies in the infallible Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

We have no problem calling Mary the Mother of God.

Peace,
Anna

 

[Omar_Gatskill]

I know that one attack against the Catholic Church in regards to the Blessed Mother is the title “Mother of God”. Well, I assume the majority of us can agree on these points:

• Mary is Jesus’ mother
• Jesus is God incarnate

So, what is the deal with referring to Mary as the Mother of God?

Jesus is God and God is the Trinity. St. Mary is not the mother of the Trinity. She is the mother of God the Son, Jesus Christ.

 

[CatholicZ09]

Jesus is God and God is the Trinity. St. Mary is not the mother of the Trinity. She is the mother of God the Son, Jesus Christ.

But Jesus is God, which makes Mary the Mother of God.

 

[Patavium]

I like how the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen talks about the Blessed Mother.

He says

*What would you think of one who professed to be a true friend of yours and yet who never spoke to your mother? That is what our Lord thinks of those who have no veneration to His Virgin Mother.

If you could have pre-existed your mother, would you not have made her the most beautiful woman and the best in the world? Well, our Lord pre-existed His Mother. We may therefore presume He did just that.*

 

[CatholicZ09]

I like how the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen talks about the Blessed Mother.

He says

*What would you think of one who professed to be a true friend of yours and yet who never spoke to your mother? That is what our Lord thinks of those who have no veneration to His Virgin Mother.

If you could have pre-existed your mother, would you not have made her the most beautiful woman and the best in the world? Well, our Lord pre-existed His Mother. We may therefore presume He did just that.*

I love this. Thank you!

 

[exoflare]

Jesus is God and God is the Trinity. St. Mary is not the mother of the Trinity. She is the mother of God the Son, Jesus Christ.

If we go by this logic, then Jesus isn’t even God.

 

[Hesychios]

I like how the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen talks about the Blessed Mother.

He says

*What would you think of one who professed to be a true friend of yours and yet who never spoke to your mother? That is what our Lord thinks of those who have no veneration to His Virgin Mother.

If you could have pre-existed your mother, would you not have made her the most beautiful woman and the best in the world? Well, our Lord pre-existed His Mother. We may therefore presume He did just that.*

The problem with this, is that he has no way of knowing, he’s just making this up.

This is anthropomorphism.

 

[Patavium]

The problem with this, is that he has no way of knowing, he’s just making this up.

This is anthropomorphism.

I think If you accept Mary as the Mother of Jesus, and you accept that Jesus is God. It seems plausible that Mary is Holy, because holy comes only from God.

Are we to imply that We know more than God when He chose Mary?

 

[Hesychios]

I think If you accept Mary as the Mother of Jesus, and you accept that Jesus is God. It seems plausible that Mary is Holy, because holy comes only from God.

Are we to imply that We know more than God when He chose Mary?

Your answer seems to illustrate my point.

The quotes from bishop Sheen are mythologizing. Bishop Sheen seems to know, does he speak for God or for himself in this matter?

It is an anthropomorphic statement. It’s like he’s saying “God must have thought such-and-such because that’s what I would think if I were him”.

“God must have done such-and-such because that’s what I would do if I were him”.

So it’s like the bishop is himself claiming that he knows more than God when He chose Mary. He is saying the kind of things he has no way of knowing. It is kind of ironic.

I think I can understand why he said that, but it really isn’t a good practice.

 

[Patavium]

Your answer seems to illustrate my point.

The quotes from bishop Sheen are mythologizing. Bishop Sheen seems to know, does he speak for God or for himself in this matter?

It is an anthropomorphic statement. It’s like he’s saying “God must have thought such-and-such because that’s what I would think if I were him”.

“God must have done such-and-such because that’s what I would do if I were him”.

So it’s like the bishop is himself claiming that he knows more than God when He chose Mary. He is saying the kind of things he has no way of knowing. It is kind of ironic.

I think I can understand why he said that, but it really isn’t a good practice.

He is not stating a fact. He is presuming.

The idea is that we should venerate Mary, but of course God is God. Mary is not God. She is the Mother of Jesus, and She was SELECTED above all WOMEN TO EVER LIVE IN THIS WORLD!. There’s a reason God selected her.

 

[rbarcia]

I know that one attack against the Catholic Church in regards to the Blessed Mother is the title “Mother of God”. Well, I assume the majority of us can agree on these points:

• Mary is Jesus’ mother
• Jesus is God incarnate

So, what is the deal with referring to Mary as the Mother of God?

Jesus is God and God is the Trinity. St. Mary is not the mother of the Trinity. She is the mother of God the Son, Jesus Christ.

Logical?

I have a degree in Math. Let’s continue this logic.

**Since: **
Mary = Mother of Jesus
Jesus = God

Therefore
Mary = Mother of God

But, I can add:
**Since: **
Father = God and Mary = Mother of God

Therefore
Mary = Mother of Father

I can also continue and say:

**Since: **
Holy Spirit = God

Therefore
Mary = Mother of Holy Spirit

I can now take the above conclusions:

Since:

Mary is Mother of Jesus
Mary is Mother of Father
Mary is Mother of Holy Spirit

Therefore
Mary is the Mother of the whole Trinity.

So with this line of reasoning, the only logical conclusion is catholics believe that Mary is the Mother of the entire Trinity, and so the title Mary of God really implies the whole Trinity.

So the Holy Spirit conceived in His mother. The mother of the father, and all sorts of heretic thoughts.

This is all avoided by simply keeping Mary the Mother of Jesus. She is a blessed woman, but not all these other things catholics have elevated her to.

Of course, stating this, catholics will use tactics like “Protestants disrespect Mary” for disagreements in theology

 

[GaryTaylor]

Definition of the Dogma: The Catechism of the Catholic Church (CCC) 495 states, “Called in the Gospels ‘the mother of Jesus’, Mary is acclaimed by Elizabeth, at the prompting of the Spirit and even before the birth of her son, as ‘the mother of my Lord ’. [Lk 1:43; Jn 2:1; 19:25; cf. Mt 13:55; et al.]

In fact, the One whom She [Mary] conceived as man and by the Holy Spirit, who truly became her Son according to the flesh, was none other than GOD the Father’s Eternal Son, the second person of the Holy Trinity. Hence the Church confesses that Mary is truly the ‘Mother of God’ thus (Theotokos).” [cf Council of Ephesus (431): DS 251.]

The Apostle’s Creed states, in part, “I believe in God, the Father Almighty, Creator of heaven and earth; and in Jesus Christ, His only Son, our Lord: Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary.”

The prologue of John’s Gospel states, in part, “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God, and the Word become Flesh".

So the Council of Ephesus, in 431 A.D., condemned the teaching of Nestorius with these words: “If anyone does not confess that the Emmanuel in truth is God and on this account the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God – since according to the flesh she brought forth the Word of God made flesh – let him be anathema.”

BTW this is the 3rd ecumenical council, all Christians should believe this.

Mary was truly the Mother of Jesus.
Her Son Jesus was one person.
She bore the Logos, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, according to His humanity. Which did not exist beofre this Divine Intervention by the Holy Spirit through Gods Will.
The person she conceived and gave birth to was fully God and fully man. thus two nature’s fully Divine and fully Human combined in “one” individual called Jesus Christ, the Son of GOD became FLESH.

The New Testament acknowledged that Mary was the Mother of Jesus. They speak of His relation to Mary (Luke 2:4-7) and show Him to be a man (Luke 24:39). They declare Him to be God (John 1:1-4; Romans 9:1-5).

Early Church Father’s…

“For our God, Jesus Christ, was conceived by Mary in accord with God’s plan: of the seed of David, it is true, but also of the Holy Spirit” – [Saint Ignatius of Antioch; Bishop of Antioch; ca. A. D. 107; Letter to the Ephesians]

“The Word Himself, born of Mary who was still a Virgin, rightly received in birth the recapitulation of Adam, thereby recapitulating Adam Himself.” – [Saint Irenaeus; Bishop of Lyons; ca. A. D. 140 – ca. A. D. 202; Against Heresies]

“The Virgin Mary … being obedient to His Word, received from an angel the glad tidings that she would bear God.” – [Saint Irenaeus; Bishop of Lyons; ca. A. D. 140 – ca. A. D. 202; Against Heresies]

"If anyone does not agree that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead. If anyone asserts that Christ passed through the Virgin as through a channel, and was not shaped in Her both divinely and humanly, divinely because without man and humanly because in accord with the law of gestation, he is likewise godless. If anyone assert that His manhood was formed, to be clothed over afterwards with divinity, he too is condemned; for this were not a generation of God, but a flight from generation . . . But He is not two Persons! Far be it! . . .” [Saint Gregory of Nazianz; 2nd of the Great Cappadocian Fathers; Bishop of Sasima; ca. A. D. 330 – ca. A. D. 389; Letter to Cledonius, Against Apollinaris, A. D. 382;

Jesus is true God…“GOD”, and true man. He is ONE, Single Divine Person, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity in Whom, by His Incarnation, are two natures, one Divine, one Human, inseperable. All Christians today accept this truth formalized and proclaimed as de fide Dogmas of the Catholic Church. Mary, a true mother, was and is the Mother of that one, single Divine Person and is thus to be acknowledged as the Mother of God. This teaching was proclaimed to insure that the Dogmas concerning the identity and nature of Christ are clearly understood.

When friends, neighbors, family or acquaintances object that Catholics deify Mary by this teaching, you can now explain the reason and reasonableness of the title. No, Mary does not pre-date God, she is His creature. But she does pre-date God’s Incarnation in Jesus Christ. And since Jesus is not two people, but one Divine Person, she is rightly referred to as the mother of that person. The Mother of God.

SO THEN…Jesus, Who is God, is the only natural-born son who “chose His mother.”

He had a plan for Her life, and She accepted it with Her fiat, Her “yes” given to the Archangel Gabriel at the Annunciation, sent by GOD… who greets Her “HAIL MARY”. For that we are eternally grateful and indebted to Mary, who was given to us to be Our Mother, by Her Son Jesus from one of His last sentences on the Cross.

And if anyone ever suggests to you that you love Mary too much, answer, “Oh no, I could not possibly love Our Lady too much, because I could never love Her as much as She is loved by Her Son!” [most of this could be found on Catholic Life]

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

I like how the late Archbishop Fulton Sheen talks

I usually catch his re-runs on Sunday Night on EWTN, they are inspiring for sure. Facinating man of God.

While his books are a great read, live his personality is a rare form. Which he actually apologized for in his last autobiography, as he felt he was often lacking humility attempting to relay his message. Perhaps a Saint.

Peace