I don't understand the problem with the title "Mary, Mother of God"

[rbarcia]

"If anyone does not agree that Holy Mary is the Mother of God, he is at odds with the Godhead. If anyone asserts that Christ passed through the Virgin as through a channel, and was not shaped in Her both divinely and humanly, divinely because without man and humanly because in accord with the law of gestation, he is likewise godless. If anyone assert that His manhood was formed, to be clothed over afterwards with divinity, he too is condemned; for this were not a generation of God, but a flight from generation . . . But He is not two Persons! Far be it! . . .” [Saint Gregory of Nazianz; 2nd of the Great Cappadocian Fathers; Bishop of Sasima; ca. A. D. 330 – ca. A. D. 389; Letter to Cledonius, Against Apollinaris, A. D. 382;

Jesus is true God…“GOD”, and true man. He is ONE, Single Divine Person, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity in Whom, by His Incarnation, are two natures, one Divine, one Human, inseperable. All Christians today accept this truth formalized and proclaimed as de fide Dogmas of the Catholic Church. Mary, a true mother, was and is the Mother of that one, single Divine Person and is thus to be acknowledged as the Mother of God. This teaching was proclaimed to insure that the Dogmas concerning the identity and nature of Christ are clearly understood.

When friends, neighbors, family or acquaintances object that Catholics deify Mary by this teaching, you can now explain the reason and reasonableness of the title. No, Mary does not pre-date God, she is His creature. But she does pre-date God’s Incarnation in Jesus Christ. And since Jesus is not two people, but one Divine Person, she is rightly referred to as the mother of that person. The Mother of God.

Peace

Faith is faith. I believe Jesus is the Eternal Son of God. I believe Jesus is God, the Second Person of the Trinity. I believe Jesus is a unique Person but Part of the one Godhead.

I don’t see how “A title” given to Mary secures those facts, or how lack of using a title, denies it. This is just analysis paralysis.
[/quote]

 

[erine]

Calling her Mother of God definitely does not imply that she existed before God. Making that assumption is just putting human limitations on God. Mothers of human beings must exist before their children do, in time, therefore Mother of God must exist before God, in time? No, God is not subject to our limitations. God won’t be put in a box!

Mary is indeed the Mother of God. This mystery could be contemplated for a lifetime and still it’s depths hardly understood.

 

[Hesychios]

Calling her Mother of God definitely does not imply that she existed before God.

As the issue unfolded some Christians preferred to call her the mother of Christ, which is actually a perfectly fine and orthodox expression.

But the problem was that in those early days some people were not sure of the nature of Christ, the expression “Mother of Christ” would work well no matter what we thought of Christ. He could be an ordinary man and it would still work. So even heretics would be able to use it along with the orthodox. These words are powerful tools.

So by formally declaring her the mother of God, there is no question that Christ is God. It is one more of many early affirmations about the divinity of Christ.

That is the whole purpose of the expression, it’s not about her, it’s about her son.

 

[jlhargus]

I don’t understand … is this a contemporary criticism? I have assumed (perhaps wrongly) that most Protestants accepted the seven Councils, would this be a Mormon complaint, or (perhaps more likely) Jehovah Witness complaint?

JL: Most Protestant denominations do not consider Mary mother of God.

 

[Marybeloved]

Logical?

I have a degree in Math. Let’s continue this logic.

**Since: **
Mary = Mother of Jesus
Jesus = God

Therefore
Mary = Mother of God

But, I can add:
**Since: **
Father = God and Mary = Mother of God

Therefore
Mary = Mother of Father

I can also continue and say:

**Since: **
Holy Spirit = God

Therefore
Mary = Mother of Holy Spirit

I can now take the above conclusions:

Since:

Mary is Mother of Jesus
Mary is Mother of Father
Mary is Mother of Holy Spirit

Therefore
Mary is the Mother of the whole Trinity.

So with this line of reasoning, the only logical conclusion is Catholics believe that Mary is the Mother of the entire Trinity, and so the title Mary of God really implies the whole Trinity.

So the Holy Spirit conceived in His mother. The mother of the father, and all sorts of heretic thoughts.

This is all avoided by simply keeping Mary the Mother of Jesus. She is a blessed woman, but not all these other things Catholics have elevated her to.

Of course, stating this, Catholics will use tactics like “Protestants disrespect Mary” for disagreements in theology

By your Maths degree logic, then,

Jesus = God;
and (per your logic) God=the Father, =The Holy Spirit,
Therefore, Jesus=The Father=The Holy Spirit,
Therefore, :newidea:Jesus is the Trinity!!!

Should this “confusion” be avoided by NOT calling Jesus God, then?

You seem to miss the whole point that the God in “Mother of God” is Jesus. Any hits you make on that title are ultimately hits against calling Jesus, God. If we can’t say that Mary is the Mother of God, then we can’t say that Jesus is God.

 

[AbideWithMe]

JL: Most Protestant denominations do not consider Mary mother of God.

Huh? Can you provide evidence that “most Protestant denominations do not consider Mary mother of God”?

If this assertion were true, every time someone sings or plays the Protestant song “Mary Did You Know” ("…when you kissed your little baby, you kissed the face of God") among Protestants, how is it that I’ve missed seeing the ensuing riot among said Protestants?

 

[AbideWithMe]

As the issue unfolded some Christians preferred to call her the mother of Christ, which is actually a perfectly fine and orthodox expression.

But the problem was that in those early days some people were not sure of the nature of Christ, the expression “Mother of Christ” would work well no matter what we thought of Christ. He could be an ordinary man and it would still work. So even heretics would be able to use it along with the orthodox. These words are powerful tools.

So by formally declaring her the mother of God, there is no question that Christ is God. It is one more of many early affirmations about the divinity of Christ.

That is the whole purpose of the expression, it’s not about her, it’s about her son.

Yes.

 

[Patavium]

Catholic are all about God!. We just venerate the Blessed Mother as well, and also other Saints to intercede for us in front of God.

We don’t put the Blessed Mother or other Saints at the same level of God. This is a common misconception.

God is God, Mary is not God. Mary is the Mother of Jesus who is God. She is holy because She accepted Jesus in her by the Holy Spirit. She accepted what was asked of her.

 

[rbarcia]

By your Maths degree logic, then,

Jesus = God;
and (per your logic) God=the Father, =The Holy Spirit,
Therefore, Jesus=The Father=The Holy Spirit,
Therefore, :newidea:Jesus is the Trinity!!!

Should this “confusion” be avoided by NOT calling Jesus God, then?

You seem to miss the whole point that the God in “Mother of God” is Jesus. Any hits you make on that title are ultimately hits against calling Jesus, God. If we can’t say that Mary is the Mother of God, then we can’t say that Jesus is God.

My point is the whole line of thought of saying

Jesus is God
Mary is Mother is Jesus,
therefore Mary is the mother of God

That whole thought is flawed. We shouldn’t use that as logic at all.

The fact is the Bible says Jesus is God. (Book of John, other books)
Bible says Mary is the mother of Jesus

And using fancy deduction logic gets you in trouble.

I do not need to confirm Mary is the mother of God to confirm Jesus is God.

The Word of God tells me this already. I just believe God’s Word.

 

[JonNC]

As the issue unfolded some Christians preferred to call her the mother of Christ, which is actually a perfectly fine and orthodox expression.

But the problem was that in those early days some people were not sure of the nature of Christ, the expression “Mother of Christ” would work well no matter what we thought of Christ. He could be an ordinary man and it would still work. So even heretics would be able to use it along with the orthodox. These words are powerful tools.

So by formally declaring her the mother of God, there is no question that Christ is God. It is one more of many early affirmations about the divinity of Christ.

That is the whole purpose of the expression, it’s not about her, it’s about her son.

Bingo, Michael. It is all about the Incarnation.

Jon

 

[rbarcia]

By your Maths degree logic, then,

Jesus = God;
and (per your logic) God=the Father, =The Holy Spirit,
Therefore, Jesus=The Father=The Holy Spirit,
Therefore, :newidea:Jesus is the Trinity!!!

Should this “confusion” be avoided by NOT calling Jesus God, then?

You seem to miss the whole point that the God in “Mother of God” is Jesus. Any hits you make on that title are ultimately hits against calling Jesus, God. If we can’t say that Mary is the Mother of God, then we can’t say that Jesus is God.

My point is the whole line of thought of saying

Jesus is God
Mary is Mother is Jesus,
therefore Mary is the mother of God

That whole thought is flawed. We shouldn’t use that as logic at all.

The fact is the Bible says Jesus is God. (Book of John, other books)
Bible says Mary is the mother of Jesus

And using fancy deduction logic gets you in trouble.

I do not need to confirm Mary is the mother of God to confirm Jesus is God.

The Word of God tells me this already. I just

 

[JonNC]

JL: Most Protestant denominations do not consider Mary mother of God.

Any Christian communion that accepts the early councils. particularly the Third Ecumenical Council held at Ephesus in 431 accepts the Theotokos. These would include at least Lutherans and Anglicans, and probably Methodists.

Jon

 

[JonNC]

My point is the whole line of thought of saying

Jesus is God
Mary is Mother is Jesus,
therefore Mary is the mother of God

That whole thought is flawed. We shouldn’t use that as logic at all.

The fact is the Bible says Jesus is God. (Book of John, other books)
Bible says Mary is the mother of Jesus

And using fancy deduction logic gets you in trouble.

I do not need to confirm Mary is the mother of God to confirm Jesus is God.

The Word of God tells me this already. I just believe God’s Word.

I can understand the bolded, but confirming that Mary is the one who gave birth to the one who is God, then it seems to me to make sense.

Jon

 

[figs]

I can understand the bolded, but confirming that Mary is the one who gave birth to the one who is God, then it seems to me to make sense.

Jon

I know it was making me scratch my head too LOL

 

[The_Scott]

And frankly, saying “Mary, Mother of Jesus Christ who is God Incarnate, consubstantial with the Father, of a full Divine Nature and a fully Human Nature in One Person” is a mouthful.

 

[smp501]

I think a lot of it is that many Protestants don’t see why Mary was more important than, say, Abraham or Moses or David. Their view is that all of these people simply obeyed God. If they hadn’t, God would have chosen someone else. I think it definitely goes back to a lacking understanding of the Incarnation, and how Christ was fully God and fully man. They say they believe it, but their beliefs are simply not taken to their logical conclusion.

 

[figs]

A woman gives birth, she is the childs mother, no mater what else the child is and that includes being God.

If you say, No, Mary isn’t the mother of God, then you are saying that Jesus isn’t God!!

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

The blessed Mother Mary is “Theotokos” because the Word was made flesh in her and through her.

The blessed Virgin Mary Mothered the person of Jesus, because she is the handmaid of the Lord, from her own flesh she gives to the Word a human nature like hers who is truly her son. Which reveals “and the Word became flesh” revealing Jesus full humanity from the blessed amongst Women.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of the Father. The Father eternally begets the Son, because in the beginning Was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God, He was in the beginning with God… and the Word became flesh…reveals Jesus full divinity and His full humanity.

Jesus humanity would not be full had Jesus not taken on His Mothers flesh.

Heaven Graced the blessed Virgin Mary from Elizabeth filled with holy spirit in a loud voice proclaimed Mary with the title “Mother of my (adonai= yahweh) Lord” (Luke 1:43)

Scripture Calls Mary the Mother of God, and every nation will call her “blessed”.

This title God gives Mary “full of Grace”, “Mother of my God” revealed from scripture should turn heads and cause one to reflect upon the Incarnation with fear and trembling. Coming to the faith of Mary’s humility and Jesus being born an infant from Mary’s womb who mothers “What Child is this” removes all fear and welcomes all Jews and Gentile nations to come to her son.

 

[AbideWithMe]

This link to the Christian Research Institute (Bible Answer Man) explains a lot of what evangelical Protestant Christians believe about Mary. It’s a short article.

equip.org/perspectives/the-theotokos

I was evangelical Protestant for the first 47 years of my life.

I agree with the poster who said that a lot of evangelical Protestant Christians hold to a Nestorian view of Mary’s role. You can see this in the link above.

**But to be honest, I never remember this debate coming up, mainly because we very seldom referred to Mary outside of reading the Bible. ** We just didn’t talk about here, ever. She is never referred to in the Bible as “Mary, Mother of God,” and so we would never have called her by that title. We didn’t know that title existed. Perhaps our pastors knew about it from the seminary studies of “Catholic false doctrines,” but none of my pastors or teachers ever brought it up.

After all, in evangelical Protestant churches, it’s all about Jesus and never anyone else.

We didn’t learn anything about any of the saints, either. Ever.

I know a lot of Catholics despise the song, “Joseph’s Song,” and believe it is Protestant. I think that it’s worthwihle for these Catholics to remember that for Protestants, this song underscores the very Catholic teaching that Jesus was/is the Son of God. Although the song never mentions Mary, it is a logical step to think, “Jesus is the Son of God and He is also the Son of Mary, therefore Mary is the Mother of the Son of God, therefore Mary is the Mother of God…oops, that sounds Catholic!”

So IMO, this song has made a lot of evangelical Protestants think about Mary and feel a little uncomfortable with their viewpoints of her role. So even if you hate the song, be grateful that it is doing a lot of evangelization for Catholicism among Protestants.

Hi Cat—

I read the link you provided. While I don’t go along with everything Hanegraaff, the author, wrote, nevertheless I don’t see anything Nestorian about it. As Hesychios noted, the Nestorian controversy wasn’t about Mary, it was about the nature of Jesus, which Hanegraaff affirms in an orthodox manner in the article.

 

[Marybeloved]

My point is the whole line of thought of saying

Jesus is God
Mary is Mother is Jesus,
therefore Mary is the mother of God

That whole thought is flawed. We shouldn’t use that as logic at all.

The fact is the Bible says Jesus is God. (Book of John, other books)
Bible says Mary is the mother of Jesus

And using fancy deduction logic gets you in trouble.

I do not need to confirm Mary is the mother of God to confirm Jesus is God.

The Word of God tells me this already. I just believe God’s Word.

This is the whole point! The Word of God tells you that Jesus is God, you say you believe it, and yet still manage to deny that his (Jesus’) mother is his (God’s) mother…

The same word that tells you that Christ is God also tells you that Mary is his mother! In fact, it tells you that God calls her the mother of the Lord (St. Elizabeth under the Holy Ghost).

You are the one twisting yourself into awkward positions trying to say that Mary is not the Mother of God by some strange logic that ultimately attacks, not Mary, but Jesus who you say you believe is God.

And there’s no “fancy deduction logic” here- unless we include your previous attempt at debunking which is clearly nonsensical since by that logic, we have to stop calling Jesus God.

This Logic of “Mother of God” on the other hand is very simple:

Jesus is not two persons, one with an earthly mother and another one without. If we have to do that (divide Christ into two), then we have to start asking ourselves who exactly died for us on the cross? Was it God the Son or Mary’s son? Christ is ONLY ONE Divine person with two natures.

Your own Mother gave you ONLY your body, not your soul. I fact only half your biology comes from her. Yet you have no problem calling her just, YOUR mother. You feel no need to start qualifying it by saying “Oh, She’s the mother of half my DNA,” or "my body alone, not my soul or indeed person (since these come to you directly from God through no other medium)".

You know that even though she gave you only half your biology, she’s still the mother of YOU- the person, which she did not give to you AT ALL. But somehow with CHRIST!, we have to divide the Person (Divine) who takes over the body from Mary, just so we don’t give Mary the same honor we give to our own mothers and fathers?