I don't understand the problem with the title "Mary, Mother of God"

[AbideWithMe]

Define Orthodox for me so that I may understand what you mean. I believe Orthodox to be right thinking.

Jesus was the God/man. No debate.

Mary in the womb bore the God/man. No debate.

The God/man came into the world through Mary’s birth canal so Mary gave birth to the God/man. Debate?

Mothering does not terminate with pregnancy. Jesus, the God/man could not take care of his toilet, his feeding or nurturing and He was mothered by Mary…John says this at the crucifixion…

Mary the mother of Jesus , God/man in the womb, at birth, in life and at death John says it was his mother…did she ever stop being His mother?

CopticChristian—

Orthodox=right teaching. In this specific case, I was saying that I didn’t see anything Nestorian about what the author said; he affirmed his belief that Jesus was God in Mary’s womb.

Regarding the part you quoted from the article: In saying that Mary was Jesus’ mother in regard to His humanity, we would agree on that, yes?----that Jesus was genuinely a Jewish man, and Mary contributed to Him her genes. Do we agree there?

In saying Mary was not Jesus’ mother in regard to His divinity, we would agree that Mary is not divine, and therefore she didn’t have divinity to contribute to Him in the womb—yes? Or if no, please explain.

 

[Omar_Gatskill]

But Jesus is God, which makes Mary the Mother of God.

Is she the mother of the Father and the Spirit too?? Of course not. She is the mother of Jesus, God the Son. That’s all.

 

[nickybr38]

Is she the mother of the Father and the Spirit too?? Of course not. She is the mother of Jesus, God the Son. That’s all.

But God the Son IS God the Father and the Holy Spirit. The three are not separate but one.

 

[Omar_Gatskill]

But God the Son IS God the Father and the Holy Spirit. The three are not separate but one.

Your answer suggests that God did not exist before Mary gave birth to him. That’s just incorrect.

 

[rbarcia]

That’s a truly strange belief. It would make the title “Son of David” false, and the Gospel genealogies pointless.
.

Is it proper to call David, the “Father of God”? Since Jesus is the “Son of David”.

I would tend to think the same reasoning would apply to Mother of Jesus, Jesus is God, therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

I would also think the title “Father of God” for David is necessary to preserve Jesus is Deity

 

[GaryTaylor]

The problem is not whether the title is appropriate, the problem is when people insist the title must be used and believed in to be a Christian. No where in Scripture, not Jesus teaching, the letters of the apostles, not even in the Gospel of John (who took Mary in as his mother after the crucifixion) is Mary given this title. It was bestowed by a council of men, yes I know they cited Scripture for their “logical” progression of thought, therefor not a requirement of salvation. Personally, I believe Jesus shared no DNA with Mary. God could certainly have placed a fully human fetus in Mary’s womb and it wouldn’t be an alien. Believing that Jesus shared DNA with Mary could logically lead one to believe that God fertilized one of Mary’s ovum. Mormon’s believe this and teach that God had sex with Mary (emoticon throwing up). So if you want to call Mary the Mother of God, go ahead, If you think it’s wrong, that’s fine too. I think Mary would be sad to know she has become the subject of such contention between belivers.

Re-read scripture to be “exact” She is called “Mother of the LORD”!

Next you should consider the role of “St. Mary” in the Apostolic Church since the 2nd century, and the scriptures which they btw wrote.

Saint is mentioned 89 times. 37 times alone by the Apostle Paul “not including Acts”

Romans 8:27- For the Spirit interceeds for the Saints as God Himself wills.

And the Archangel Gabriel states “Blessed are you among women”. Hail Mary, the Lord is with you, You have found favor with the Lord.

Now, what the Bible does NOT state is anything even remotely sounding like your speculation. And what we call Her is…The Blessed Virgin Mother, thats what the Catholic Church calls Her according to Bible/Scripture. And whom interceeds for Her children “according to scripture” .

 

[rbarcia]

Re-read scripture to be “exact” She is called “Mother of the LORD”!

Luke 1 uses LORD or Lord?

In Luke 1

43 And why is this granted to me that the mother of my Lord should come to me?

The translators used Lord, not LORD. ANd there is a big difference in the capitalization of all the letters and just the first.

It is not LORD (as in Jehovah), but Lord as in (My Master)?

Even catholic translations do no render it LORD?

 

[rbarcia]

Saint is mentioned 89 times. 37 times alone by the Apostle Paul “not including Acts”

.

saint is never used in Scripture as a title like Saint Peter? But only refers to saints as living people. To refer to Christians who were living.

 

[couponfit]

I know that one attack against the Catholic Church in regards to the Blessed Mother is the title “Mother of God”. Well, I assume the majority of us can agree on these points:

• Mary is Jesus’ mother
• Jesus is God incarnate

So, what is the deal with referring to Mary as the Mother of God?

There were two differing titles: Theotokos (Mother of God), and Christokos (Mother of Jesus). The emphasis with Christokos was that Jesus was in fact different than God. So the math would be God and Mary equals Christ. But with Theotokos the math reads God and Mary equals God and Man (Separable and inseparable).

 

[rbarcia]

.The Blessed Virgin Mother, thats what the Catholic Church calls Her according to Bible/Scripture. And whom interceeds for Her children “according to scripture” .

Where in scripture does Mary intercede for her children. I see verses that says the Spirit makes intercession for the saints (living believers).

Romans 8

26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;

27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

I see living people praying for others in the Bible as well.

But not what you mention

 

[GaryTaylor]

Is it proper to call David, the “Father of God”? Since Jesus is the “Son of David”.

I would tend to think the same reasoning would apply to Mother of Jesus, Jesus is God, therefore, Mary is the Mother of God.

I would also think the title “Father of God” for David is necessary to preserve Jesus is Deity

I don’t understand this Biblically. Jesus is in the Bloodline of King David as per Matthew 1 and the geneology of Jesus Christ. 14 generations before King David, and 14 generations after King David for a total of 28-generation’s to Jesus Christ who holds the Davidic Keys, thus King which then makes his mother Mary, Queen. This coincides with the Davidic Keys in Isaiah 22.

Mary really is the biological mother of Jesus.

And of course Jesus isn’t staying on earth he already knows this so he gives the Keys to St Peter/Matthew

Peace

 

[rbarcia]

I don’t understand this Biblically. Jesus is in the Bloodline of King David as per Matthew 1 and the geneology of Jesus Christ. 14 generations before King David, and 14 generations after King David for a total of 28-generation’s to Jesus Christ who holds the Davidic Keys, thus King which then makes his mother Mary, Queen. This coincides with the Davidic Keys in Isaiah 22.

Mary really is the biological nother of Jesus.

And of course Jesus isn’t staying on earth he already knows this so he gives the Keys to St Peter/Matthew

Peace

That was not my question, I know you are trying to change it to the topic of authority (church, scripture). But that was not my question.

David was Biologically in the blood line of David. He is called the “Son of David”

So can we call David “Father of God” or “Great, great, great … grandfather of God”?

Trying to understand. If you want to digress into

Because the RCC is the authority and we say so, then fine…

 

[GaryTaylor]

Where in scripture does Mary intercede for her children. I see verses that says the Spirit makes intercession for the saints (living believers).

Romans 8

26 And in like manner the Spirit also helpeth our infirmity: for we know not how to pray as we ought; but the Spirit himself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered;

27 and he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.

I see living people praying for others in the Bible as well.

But not what you mention

On the Cross she become everyones Mother “There is your Mother”. What is St.Mary is Heaven?

The Saints interceed through your prayer and mine to God for you or whomever. The prayer is offered up to the Lord. The Lord interceeds for mankind as He wills, when He wills, and to whom He wills. And according to what is actually needed for your souls salvation.

There are no Saints on earth. To be be a Saint means you have seen God and are in heaven and have been judged. There are many who are Saintly on earth and may be Saints in heaven when they leave the flesh, no doubt. But no Saints on earth. The Pope is not a Saint. Your Minsiter is not a Saint.

The sisters/brothers living/poverty/chasety/obedience are not Saints. They well may be Saints and I am sure many are shooting for exactly that.

Peace

 

[ciaran]

“Mary Mother of God” implies that Mary existed before God and that is the objection you will always get. When you explain the logical concept that Mary is the mother of Jesus; Jesus is God; therefore Mary is the mother of God, then you get a genuinely Nestorian response. It will usually go something like, “But Mary was only the mother of the Jesus the man.” I went through this once with a well educated person and at that point told her that this is a Nestorian view that she was expressing. She agreed wholeheartedly and then said, “You know, Nestorius was right about Mary and the Council of Ephesus was wrong.”

Few will be so forthright, but the truth is that most Protestants, at least those of the Evangelical stripe, are Nestorians.

I had some trouble about that one time. I kept going to the Bible in John it said to test the spirits to see if they are from God do they confess that Jesus has come in the flesh. I was lucky to find a tract by Bl John Henery Newman. He showed that Holy Mary Mother of God is the test to see if the spirit of God is at work That is confessing that Baby Jesus is truly Gon and Man all the shepards angles and the Kings Worshiped him he is God.

 

[rbarcia]

On the Cross she become everyones Mother “There is your Mother”. What is St.Mary is Heaven?

The Saints interceed through your prayer and mine to God for you or whomever. The prayer is offered up to the Lord. The Lord interceeds for mankind as He wills, when He wills, and to whom He wills. And according to what is actually needed for your souls salvation.

There are no Saints on earth. To be be a Saint means you have seen God and are in heaven and have been judged. There are many who are Saintly on earth and may be Saints in heaven when they leave the flesh, no doubt. But no Saints on earth. The Pope is not a Saint. Your Minsiter is not a Saint.

The sisters/brothers living/poverty/chasety/obedience are not Saints. They well may be Saints and I am sure many are shooting for exactly that.

Peace

So when Paul writes to the Ephesians,

Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

You are stating he is writing a letter to people who witness Jesus Alive, or he is writing a letter to people in heaven.

Listen, I understand the catholic position on saints, but in Scripture, Paul does not use saint to refer to people in heaven or only witnesses.

 

[GaryTaylor]

That was not my question, I know you are trying to change it to the topic of authority (church, scripture). But that was not my question.

David was Biologically in the blood line of David. He is called the “Son of David”

So can we call David “Father of God” or “Great, great, great … grandfather of God”?

Trying to understand. If you want to digress into

Because the RCC is the authority and we say so, then fine…

Uh-uh its the messanic prophecy fulfillied. Thats the purpose of the geneology of Jesus Christ. Because David was King of Israel, his descendents, under the patriarchal order, were entitled to the throne. Thus Christ the King, Mary Queen:shrug: Son of David indicates Jesus Christs born right to be King and its Biblical prophecy completed. CC doctrine has nothing to do with it, its just Bible interpretation.

Peace

 

[rbarcia]

Uh-uh its the messanic prophecy fulfillied. Thats the purpose of the geneology of Jesus Christ. Because David was King of Israel, his descendents, under the patriarchal order, were entitled to the throne. Thus Christ the King, Mary Queen:shrug: Son of David indicates Jesus Christs born right to be King and its Biblical prophecy completed. CC doctrine has nothing to do with it, its just Bible interpretation.

Peace

**Romans 1

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 which he promised afore through his prophets in the holy scriptures,

3 concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh,

4 who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord,**

Paul seems to distinguish the seed of the flesh and according to the spirit.

And why does the fact that Jesus is King make Mary a Queen. Just because “Some” of the Jewish Kings (many of the disobedient ones may I add) had their mother as a queen? David did not have his mother as a queen. Some had their grand mothers, and some had wives.

No where in scripture is Mary referred to as a queen

 

[GaryTaylor]

So when Paul writes to the Ephesians,

Eph 1:1
Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, to the saints that are at Ephesus, and the faithful in Christ Jesus:

You are stating he is writing a letter to people who witness Jesus Alive, or he is writing a letter to people in heaven.

Listen, I understand the catholic position on saints, but in Scripture, Paul does not use saint to refer to people in heaven or only witnesses.

Where does he call anyone specifically a Saint? With Paul here is any believer who is “in Christ”, and in whom Christ dwells, whether in heaven or on earth. The fact is you cannot live in a fallen state and be a Saint. How is that possible? Paul is telling you this through the entire context of Romans.

Where does Paul call himself a Saint?

The apostle Paul declared himself to be “less than the least of all saints” in Ephesians 3:8

Who in the entire NT is called a Saint thats alive.

 

[rbarcia]

Where does he call anyone specifically a Saint? With Paul here is any believer who is “in Christ”, and in whom Christ dwells, whether in heaven or on earth. The fact is you cannot live in a fallen state and be a Saint. How is that possible? Paul is telling you this through the entire context of Romans.

Where does Paul call himself a Saint?

The apostle Paul declared himself to be “less than the least of all saints” in Ephesians 3:8

Who in the entire NT is called a Saint thats alive.

He calls the Ephesians saints. The word saints is used plural to refer to a group of believers.

The word you are saying “Saint” is not used in the Bible as you are saying.

Acts 9:13
But Ananias answered, Lord, I have heard from many of this man, how much evil he did to thy saints at Jerusalem:

saints in Jerusalem were living people.

Acts 9:32
And it came to pass, as Peter went throughout all parts, he came down also to the saints that dwelt at Lydda.

saints in Lydda were living people

Acts 26:10
And this I also did in Jerusalem: and I both shut up many of the saints in prisons, having received authority from the chief priests, and when they were put to death I gave my vote against them.

saints were put in prison by Paul

Romans 16:15
Salute Philologus and Julia, Nereus and his sister, and Olympas, and all the saints that are with them.

Come on, all over Paul’s letters, Paul refers to groups of living people as saints.

 

[GaryTaylor]

**Romans 1

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 which he promised afore through his prophets in the holy scriptures,

3 concerning his Son, who was born of the seed of David according to the flesh**,

4 who was declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead; even Jesus Christ our Lord,

Paul seems to distinguish the seed of the flesh and according to the spirit.

And why does the fact that Jesus is King make Mary a Queen. Just because “Some” of the Jewish Kings (many of the disobedient ones may I add) had their mother as a queen? David did not have his mother as a queen. Some had their grand mothers, and some had wives.

No where in scripture is Mary referred to as a queen

What does any of this have to do with Paul? Were talking Matthew?

Just because “Some” of the Jewish Kings (many of the disobedient ones may I add) had their mother as a queen? …Exactly the reason. Doesn’t have to be Biblical its Historical and I don’t believe you can consider Jesus disobedient or Mary for that matter Gald you said it not me:thumbsup:

Disobediant has nothing to do with anything… Look at the geneology of Jesus Christm lot of sinners in there. God does not work in a perfect straight line, People are “flesh” live in a fallen world, and the fact is some will be sinners.

Peace