I don't understand the problem with the title "Mary, Mother of God"

[Zenas]

And how does the Bible exercise its authority? Through you? How does the Bible speak? Through you only?

I hope this article will shed more light on what you said here:calledtocommunion.com/2009/07/ecclesial-deism/

Excerpts:

Mohler claims that we have an “objective standard” by which to define what is and what is not Christianity. That objective standard is “traditional Christian orthodoxy.” But this subtly pushes back the question: What is the objective standard for what counts as “traditional Christian orthodoxy”? Mohler appeals to the early creeds, and the first four ecumenical councils. He seems to think that the end of the fifth century is roughly the cutoff for “traditional Christian orthodoxy.” But picking the fifth century as the cutoff for “traditional Christian orthodoxy” is no less ad hoc than picking the first century. If one thinks that the Church fell into heresy or apostasy, there is no more principled reason to think the ‘apostasy of the Church’ did not begin for five hundred years than there is to think it began in the first century.

At least Mohler pays attention to the creeds, the early councils and the early church fathers. Most evangelicals ignore these things completely because they are outside the Bible. If my pastor got up in church and recited the Apostles Creed, most members would be giving him a deer in the headlights look, and when he finished they might think, “That’s pretty good,” but they wouldn’t have a clue where it came from. For all they know it would be something he had made up.

 

[JustaServant]

I hope this is not a hit and run response.

Please provide your definition of what Gnosticism actually is?

Then explain why you believe what is it, that I wrote, that you deem to be gnosticism?

I am quite familiar with the gnostic Nag Hammadi scriptures and I reject them as distortions of, and inconsistent with, the OT and NT Scriptures.

The Gnostic belief was that the spirit was a particle of divine light trapped in the rank prison of a human body, i.e a rejection of the flesh. They would often take verses, such as the one you quoted, out of context to support their view.
Gnostics taught that all creation was evil and that Jesus’ secret teaching was the spirit’s only way to liberation from bondage in the material world. Without this “gnosis,” the spirit would be trapped in matter.
In contrast, the Church taught from the beginning that man is composed of ***body and soul ***and created thus in the image and likeness of God. The body is itself a good and is integral to the human person.
By rejecting the basic Christian regard for the human body, the Gnostics rejected other Christian doctrines as well. The Incarnation of God in Jesus Christ, (directly related to the OP) for example, was abhorrent to the Gnostics. Contrary to the orthodox position, they believed that Jesus’ flesh was an illusion at best. The Redeemer, in their view, could only be a ghost occupying a mortal machine until His earthly work was done.
Neither could they believe that their Redeemer really suffered in the flesh.
And, since the Gnostics considered Jesus’ bodily death an illusion, they held that any idea of physical resurrection was an absurdity.
The Gnostic goal, after all, was to escape the body, not glorify it.
The Church however, is Sacramental, which joins the body with the spirit.

 

[CopticChristian]

I’ll agree that you made the best argument you could make to support your view.

I do not believe Mary’s Body was assumed into Heaven, it is not in the Bible, but rather, that this idea has simply been assumed by some people. And apparently, believed by many wherever it is taught as being a fact.

**I do not believe that my body is me. **My body is a machine, a wonderful dwelling that I, a spirit, resides in while I am on Earth. My spirit controls my body - the machine. My thoughts wills my body to stand up, run, shake hands, give a wink, etc.

In the same manner, when I get into an automobile, the automobile becomes an extension of my body. My thoughts, per my will, will send signals to my eyes, my arms, and my hands, and my feet, causing the car to move in the direction I - a spirit- desire, at the speed that I desire. Both, my automobile and my body are merely machines. Cars are manufactured in factories, and bodies are manufactured in a woman’s womb.

And when we die, our body decays into dust, but my spirit returns to the Lord, or possibly, kept in some kind of hibernation until a time God takes us into His Kingdom.

There have been many near death experiences where peoples spirits left their bodies, observing their body and the people near their body trying to help them. Scripture states that Flesh and Blood can not inherit the Kingdom of God. I have two brothers that had out of body experiences, and so have I, and we were spirits.

1 Co 15:50-57

Now I say this, brethren, that FLESH AND BLOOD CAN NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD; nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable. Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all sleep, but we will all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed. For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, “DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory. O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR VICTORY? O DEATH, WHERE IS YOUR STING?” The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law; but thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ. NASU

We are spirits. And I believe that Jesus had been bodily on Earth many times before He was born via Mary.

I believe Jesus was the 4th man in the fire, That He was the one who sat down and ate with Abraham, and He may well have been Hosea whom God changed his name to Joshua whom was the only person on Mount Sinai (in Saudi Arabia near Midian) when Moses received the Commandments from God and whom was the only person who dwelt in the tent where God dwelt during the Exodus, and whom God chose to lead His People into the promise land after Moses broke the Covenant of the Law that bears Moses name, which caused God to not allow Moses to enter the promise land.

As for Mary, she is indeed a blessed (i.e. speak well of) person. Mary is a very special person whom we all ought to speak well of. But there is no reason to make her equal to God, nor bestow her with numerous titles that Scripture does not support.

Disclaimer: And the above is merely my opinion based on my understanding of the Scriptures, I do not speak for God…

Mary’s death is not recorded in the Bible. Peter’s death is not recorded in the Bible. Paul’s death is not recorded in the Bible. Did they die? The answer is blowin in the wind…

youtube.com/watch?v=3t4g_1VoGw4

If you do not believe that your body is you…whose body was the Jesus you believe is God and what died on the cross?

 

[CopticChristian]

Of course not. The Bible speaks to me via the workings of the Holy Spirit that dwells in me, my helper, who works in us all things to the good, for all true Christians who believe God. Jesus promised us we would receive the Holy Spirit, our helper, God in me.

Jn 16:5-15

"But now I am going to Him who sent Me; and none of you asks Me, ’ Where are You going?’ But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart. But I tell you the truth, it is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I go, I will send Him to you. And He, when He comes, will convict the world concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.

12 "I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. But when He, the Spirit of truth, comes, He will guide you into all the truth; for He will not speak on His own initiative, but whatever He hears, He will speak; and He will disclose to you what is to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of Mine and will disclose it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine; therefore I said that He takes of Mine and will disclose it to you.

And,

1 Co 12:1-13
Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.

4 Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.

12 For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.
NASU

And Romans 8

You appear to be an intelleigent person. How can you believe the Bible speaks to you when the Bible says nothing of the OT and NT combined as you know it…The Bible that you read was not put together at the time of the writings and yet you believe you are reading the Bible. I point this out because many of your thoughts are concluded by suggesting “because it is not in the Bible”…well then the Bible you read is not noted in the Bible so why do you believe it is the Bible…?

 

[GaryTaylor]

The Assumption isn’t new concept either.

Referrences of the Assumption include Timothy of Jeruselem 380 AD who wrote; "He who dwelt in Her took Her to the regions of Ascension.

Celebratory festivals date to August from the 400’s in Palestine, and had reached Gaul by the 500’s. The festival is evidence of the long standing belief in the Doctrine.

St Gregory of Tours 580-AD “Mary the glorious Mother of Jesus Christ whom we believe was Virgin before, and after child birth, was, as we had said before…carried to Paradise preceeded by the Lord, amist the singing of the Angelic Choirs”

Apocryphal writtings detailing the Assumptiom have been dated back to the 200 AD.

 

[Hesychios]

The Gnostic belief was that the spirit was a particle of divine light trapped in the rank prison of a human body, i.e a rejection of the flesh. They would often take verses, such as the one you quoted, out of context to support their view.
Gnostics taught that all creation was evil and that Jesus’ secret teaching was the spirit’s only way to liberation from bondage in the material world. Without this “gnosis,” the spirit would be trapped in matter.
In contrast, the Church taught from the beginning that man is composed of ***body and soul ***and created thus in the image and likeness of God. The body is itself a good and is integral to the human person.
By rejecting the basic Christian regard for the human body, the Gnostics rejected other Christian doctrines as well. The Incarnation of God in Jesus Christ, (directly related to the OP) for example, was abhorrent to the Gnostics. Contrary to the orthodox position, they believed that Jesus’ flesh was an illusion at best. The Redeemer, in their view, could only be a ghost occupying a mortal machine until His earthly work was done.
Neither could they believe that their Redeemer really suffered in the flesh.
And, since the Gnostics considered Jesus’ bodily death an illusion, they held that any idea of physical resurrection was an absurdity.
The Gnostic goal, after all, was to escape the body, not glorify it.
The Church however, is Sacramental, which joins the body with the spirit.

Good Post

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Cavaradossi;8804230]I guess he must be “misinterpreting” the feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos, which teaches very clearly that she died before being assumed. You know, the feast where Eastern Christians of the Greek and Slavic traditions sing this hymn:
In birth, you preserved your virginity; in death, you did not abandon the world, O Theotokos. As mother of life, you departed to the source of life, delivering our souls from death by your intercessions.

Two corrections here need to be reinstated;

1. The Doctrine of the Assumption of Mary body and soul does not need to nor does this doctrine reveal Mary died. The assumption of Mary into heaven is “supported by and practiced from sacred Tradition and sacred Scripture”. Don’t add how Mary parted this earth, nor when Mary parted this earth to the declaration of the doctrine from the Assumption of Mary body and soul into heaven. Your mixing apples and oranges here trying to fit a small “t” tradition to what is believed by “ALL” from captial “T” tradition.
2. What is emphatically believed and taught from Sacred Tradition is believed by all the faithful. thus Mary assumed into heaven body and soul. **What is believed and taught from small “t” traditions is not binding on all believers. Thus how Mary died, when Mary died, how long Mary died, what caused Mary’s death, is never capital “T” sacred tradition. **]If your "t"radition says Mary died peace be with you, and If another “t” radition says Mary did not die, but that God took her at the completion of her life on earth peace be with you.

But no Catholic can escape “T” radition which declares and believes Mary is in heaven body and soul. That is all the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary reveals. Adding ones "t"radition to this doctrine decieves himself of the doctrine of the assumption believed by all the faithful.

Mary’s death and assumption after death is tradition, as shown by the liturgical calendars of the East. The Eastern Catholics, by the way, celebrate the dormition and do believe that Mary died, because it is their tradition. If this is not a valid tradition, then why has your Vatican not corrected these Eastern Catholics yet?

Mary’s death is “small t tradition”, every Catholic rite has its own small “t” traditions" from language, cultures and theologies. Because the Eastern Catholics do not violate Sacred Tradition nor the doctrine of the Assumption of Mary, if they hold to their own small “t” traditions that Mary died and was assumed into heaven body and soul. Roman Catholics can hold to this small “t” tradition also and some rightly do.

The Pope and the magisterium will expose any liturgy that dismisses Mary’s assumption, and only hold to Mary died, and was not assumed into heaven body and soul. Now if this exists, these have broken with Captial “T” sacred Tradition. If any liturgy that holds to their “t” own traditions that do not violate Sacred Tradition, Sacred Scripture, are at liberty to excercise their faith, from their small “t” traditions provided that they do not break with or conflict with sacred “T” Tradition.

In the West, the heavenly apparitions are not binding on all believers. These small “t” traditions from the West are not imposed on either western or eastern Catholics.

So your small “t” traditions that Mary died, although revealed in your liturgy does not nullify the “T” sacred Tradition that All the faithful hold to in the assumption of Mary in heaven body and soul. There are items in the Latin liturgy that may come from small “t” traditions that are not accepted or practiced in other Catholic liturgies.

We should appreciate the Church’s wisdom in this, "All though we are many members in diversity of language, culture and understanding which can change from small “t” traditions. we are all made one body in Christ Jesus from our Sacred Traditions revealed and taught from Sacred Scripture and the revelations of Jesus Christ.

Our differences can be accepted or not accepted from our small “t” traditions. But our differences that are expressed from language, culture, traditions cannot and does not contradict nor conflict with our Sacred Traditions which is binding on all the faithful in every age unchanged.

Peace be with you

 

[jlhargus]

Verses like Rev 12, the woman symbolizes Israel.

JL: I agree Rev12 the woman **SYMBOLIZES **Israel. Especially spiritual Israel the Church. The literal meaning of the woman would be Mary who literally gave birth to the Child. It isn’t good interpretation to hold the red dragon as literally, a person, Satan and the Child as literally, a person, Christ. Then changing the interpretation saying the woman is ONLY a SYMBOL. How do you justify the change?

So to go back to the point of this thread, I believe acknowledging the “title” leads to the above. It is step one in a reasoning chain used to convince of all Marian doctrines. That is my problem with the title.

JL: Mary as mother of God does not convince me of her other titles. Those titles stand on their own merit and the authority and Traditions, whether by word (oral) or epistle (scripture) 2thes2:15, of the pillar and ground of TRUTH the Church, 1Tm3:15.

I don’t think you really believe TRUTH and reasoning leads to error? If a truth isn’t acknowledged that would leave truth and error standing side by side as equal. In fact not defining or clarifying a truth produces confusion allowing errors to flourish, causing contention and division.

I assume you believe in the Trinity. With your theory the Trinity should not have been acknowleded. Leaving some holding Jesus is BOTH man and God, some holding Jesus was a man only, some holding Jesus was God, only, inhabiting a human body not acturally becoming flesh etc… That would mean the Gospel truth is of no importance and doesn’t really matter. Each person’s truth is as true as the next person’s truth. Even though they contradict each other.

Jesus is one person with two natures. The nature of God and the nature of man. Both natures, God and man, are UNITED in the ONE PERSON of Jesus. To deny Mary is mother of God is to deny God (Jesus) BECAME FLESH. John tells us in scripture denying Christ (who is God) come in the flesh is the spirit of anti-christ.

1Jn4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2Jn1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

I think it is ok for Christians to pray for each other. But I disagree probably in the role intercession plays. When I pray for others, it is also a benefit to my faith to see prayers for others answered. My desire in prayer should not be selfish, but I should have a genuine concern for others. As such, Paul exhorts people to pray for others, but not so much “ask someone in a better state of grace.”

JL: Anytime you pray for someone you are interceding for them with God. [Mt18:10 Take heed that ye despise not one of these little ones for I say unto you That **in heaven their angels do always behold the face of my Father which is in heaven.] Jesus says their angels behold the face of His Father. That tells us they have continual access to the Father. If one of their little ones are in need. The angel serves as the child’s intercessor before God. Otherwise what’s the point? if the angel can’t help by interceding?

When you are urgently in need of prayer. Do you seek out those you know are strong in faith (grace) or those you know are weak in faith to pray for you? When a friend asks you to pray for them. Do you say, that’s ridiculous, we have only one mediator I can’t interceded for you?

[Lk 15:7 … likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth…10 … there is joy in the PRESENCE OF THE ANGELS of God over one sinner that repenteth.] Saints in heaven know when a sinner repents and those SAINTS rejoice in the PRESENCE of angels. If they know when one repents they can also know when one needs prayer.

[Eph 3:14 For this reason I kneel before the Father, 15 from whom HIS WHOLE FAMILY IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH derives its name.]

 

[jlhargus]

So I believe Jesus is born of a virgin. I believe Mary is a very Blessed woman. A role model for Christians. I don’t believe in things like Mary’s Perpetual Virginity,

JL: So not to get off topic I have posted my following post for your information on those titles you mentioned.

Lk1:46 And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold, from henceforth ALL GENERATIONS SHALL CALL ME BLESSED 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me GREAT THINGS; and holy is his name.

When does your faith group call Mary blessed? In your view what great thingS has God done for Mary? I would suggest the follow titles are some of those great things God has done.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5920272&postcount=96 Perpetual Virgin

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5920291&postcount=97 Immaculate Conception

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=5920297&postcount=98 Arc of the Covenant

her role as Co-Mediator,

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7365038&postcount=528 It is finished & CO-MEDIATRIX.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7371962&postcount=547 CHRIST IS REIGNING NOW.

that she was sinless, Mother of the Church, and Queen of Heaven.

JL: Mary the new Eve, is mother of the Church, as she is mother of Jesus who’s body is the Church. Mary is our mother because with her yes to God in giving birth to our Lord she became mother of ALL THE LIVING in Christ. Also when Jesus said to the beloved disciple behold your mother, behold your son. The beloved disciple took her into his home. So do all His beloved disciples take her into their homes. I couldn’t find any old posts on this so I gave a short answer.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=7365075&postcount=529 Mary as Queen

 

[AbideWithMe]

At least Mohler pays attention to the creeds, the early councils and the early church fathers. Most evangelicals ignore these things completely because they are outside the Bible. If my pastor got up in church and recited the Apostles Creed, most members would be giving him a deer in the headlights look, and when he finished they might think, “That’s pretty good,” but they wouldn’t have a clue where it came from. For all they know it would be something he had made up.

Zenas–

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, “a broad coalition of evangelical Christians from Baptist, Congregational, Anglican, Presbyterian, Reformed, and Lutheran” churches, uses the Apostles Creed. The churches I’ve been in publically professed it on a regular basis, and most everyone has it memorized, along with the Nicene Creed.

 

[CopticChristian]

Zenas–

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, “a broad coalition of evangelical Christians from Baptist, Congregational, Anglican, Presbyterian, Reformed, and Lutheran” churches, uses the Apostles Creed. The churches I’ve been in publically professed it on a regular basis, and most everyone has it memorized, along with the Nicene Creed.

So,

As a person attending an Evangelical Free Church that is Dispensational…noting that Dispensationalists believe that the Israel created by the United Nations is Israel, just so much dirt…how do you reconcile Exodus 19 and Dispensational thought…?

5Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine: 6And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Recognize that in Salvation History, the Covenants in Catholic Theology declare the OHCAC to be the mystery, the Israel of God…and the last time I looked there were nothing but priests, looking to bring the world to Christ, not by power, not by might, but by poverty, chastity and obedience.

How do you confess the creed and say the following words…?

And one holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess (I confess) one baptism for the remission of sins.

You must have some unusual understanding of what it means to say one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church…I would appreciate your understanding of the Evangelical Free Church being Apostolic. I also wonder do all the Evangelicals believe in Baptism for the remission of sins or are you just mumbling words?

Last but not least from the Evangelical Allicance website comes the following…

Sola Scriptura

By Tom Clothier

In covenant with The Protestant Reformation’s enduring legacy centers upon the doctrines of the “solas.” The Reformers believed and taught these five truths and they remain indispensible to the health of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the growth of the church. Why? It is because these five tenants did not originate with the Reformers of the Reformation. On the contrary, the Reformers **rediscovered truth **God had given and which had long been buried by the church.

Please give a historical account of the history of the truths that were so long forgotten and buried as well as the efforts to bury them in time commencing with when the burial started and all the efforts to bury them.

Since I was unaware of this and I want to know the truth and the truth will set me free…I want freedom…please lead me…

You can imagine how many of us on this website would appreciate the possibility of being liberated and unshackled from this Church that may have buried the truth.

 

[Zenas]

Zenas–

The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, “a broad coalition of evangelical Christians from Baptist, Congregational, Anglican, Presbyterian, Reformed, and Lutheran” churches, uses the Apostles Creed. The churches I’ve been in publically professed it on a regular basis, and most everyone has it memorized, along with the Nicene Creed.

I suppose if you read what I posted from an inclusive standpoint, you might infer I was saying that no evangelical church uses the creeds. However, a careful reading of this post shows I was speaking of the ignorance of my own church members concerning the Apostles Creed. I’m sure there are evangelicals who use the creeds, although I would only be aware of this through anecdotal evidence.

I am absolutely certain that Southern Baptists and Churches of Christ don’t use them. Moreover, they have no familiarity with them. I have been a Southern Baptist all my life. I am an ordained Baptist deacon (24 years) and a Sunday School teacher (28 years) and have never seen any of the creeds printed in any church literature. I have never heard any of the creeds recited in any Baptist church or even talked about in any Baptist church. It may be different in American Baptist churches or Freewill Baptist churches because I have no familiarity with them. But among Southern Baptists and independent Baptists, you won’t find it.

I notice Al Mohler is a member of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals. To his credit, Mohler at least reads a lot of church history and subscribes to the Apostles Creed. He even did a series of sermons on the Apostles Creed in 2008-08. However, if you are a student at his seminary (Southern Baptist Theological Seminary), you won’t hear much about these things.

 

[AbideWithMe]

At least Mohler pays attention to the creeds, the early councils and the early church fathers. Most evangelicals ignore these things completely because they are outside the Bible. If my pastor got up in church and recited the Apostles Creed, most members would be giving him a deer in the headlights look, and when he finished they might think, “That’s pretty good,” but they wouldn’t have a clue where it came from. For all they know it would be something he had made up.

Zenas—

Hi. My response was to your saying that “Most evangelicals ignore these things completely because they are outside the Bible.” I did understand that after that sentence you were only talking about your experience in your own church. My intent was just a friendly questioning of the “Most evangelicals ignore…” part, by providing evidence that a broad range of evangelicals use the Apostles Creed. In my own experience, I’ve seen the ancient creeds used in a variety of churches, and even in popular contemporary songs that are sung widely as a sort of common denominator between churches. “Creed” by Rich Mullins would be an example of one such popular song.

 

[CopticChristian]

Zenas—

Hi. My response was to your saying that “Most evangelicals ignore these things completely because they are outside the Bible.” I did understand that after that sentence you were only talking about your experience in your own church. My intent was just a friendly questioning of the “Most evangelicals ignore…” part, by providing evidence that a broad range of evangelicals use the Apostles Creed. In my own experience, I’ve seen the ancient creeds used in a variety of churches, and even in popular contemporary songs that are sung widely as a sort of common denominator between churches. “Creed” by Rich Mullins would be an example of one such popular song.

Are you going to let me know where the truth was hidden…I need to be released from the shackles of deception…Please help me get released…

youtube.com/watch?v=B9RGtLpIAWI&feature=related

 

[AbideWithMe]

LOL (really), CopticChristian, there’s no way I’m playing Englebert on YouTube. I did enjoy your earlier offering of Peter Paul and Mary. The power on my tablet’s battery is almost gone tonight, so I’m going to charge it and go to sleep. I didn’t get to read your post, but I’ll take a look at it tomorrow.

p.s.–I ran the battery down by watching more Peter Paul and Mary videos on YouTube after that one you posted…no lie. Thanks, and thanks from Puff the Magic Dragon.

 

[cajunhillbilly]

The Gnostic belief was that the spirit was a particle of divine light trapped in the rank prison of a human body, i.e a rejection of the flesh. They would often take verses, such as the one you quoted, out of context to support their view.
Gnostics taught that all creation was evil and that Jesus’ secret teaching was the spirit’s only way to liberation from bondage in the material world. Without this “gnosis,” the spirit would be trapped in matter.
In contrast, the Church taught from the beginning that man is composed of ***body and soul ***and created thus in the image and likeness of God. The body is itself a good and is integral to the human person.
By rejecting the basic Christian regard for the human body, the Gnostics rejected other Christian doctrines as well. The Incarnation of God in Jesus Christ, (directly related to the OP) for example, was abhorrent to the Gnostics. Contrary to the orthodox position, they believed that Jesus’ flesh was an illusion at best. The Redeemer, in their view, could only be a ghost occupying a mortal machine until His earthly work was done.
Neither could they believe that their Redeemer really suffered in the flesh.
And, since the Gnostics considered Jesus’ bodily death an illusion, they held that any idea of physical resurrection was an absurdity.
The Gnostic goal, after all, was to escape the body, not glorify it.
The Church however, is Sacramental, which joins the body with the spirit.

I agree with this post. I came to see that man is body and soul. Man is a unity of his body and his soul. We will not be complete until the resurrection of our bodies. Amen.

 

[JustaServant]

I agree with this post. I came to see that man is body and soul. Man is a unity of his body and his soul. We will not be complete until the resurrection of our bodies. Amen.

I will go a step further, being a former fundamentalist, and say that this issue is truly at the heart of Christian fundamentalism. They reject the body in favor of the spirit to such a degree they become virtual Gnostics. Many truly believe that we are simply ‘spirits in a body’, and I have pointed out (even as a Baptist) that God created the body first, and then breathed life into man.
That is why Sacramental Christians (Anglicans included) believe man is a unity of body and soul.

 

[AbideWithMe]

Are you going to let me know where the truth was hidden…I need to be released from the shackles of deception…Please help me get released…

youtube.com/watch?v=B9RGtLpIAWI&feature=related

CopticChristian—

As I said before, I gave the Alliance as an example of a range of evangelical churches including some Baptists, that use the Apostle’s Creed. They are a conservative coalition. I did not say I was part of the Alliance.

 

[AbideWithMe]

So,

As a person attending an Evangelical Free Church that is Dispensational…noting that Dispensationalists believe that the Israel created by the United Nations is Israel, just so much dirt…how do you reconcile Exodus 19 and Dispensational thought…?

Recognize that in Salvation History, the Covenants in Catholic Theology declare the OHCAC to be the mystery, the Israel of God…and the last time I looked there were nothing but priests, looking to bring the world to Christ, not by power, not by might, but by poverty, chastity and obedience.

How do you confess the creed and say the following words…?

You must have some unusual understanding of what it means to say one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church…I would appreciate your understanding of the Evangelical Free Church being Apostolic. I also wonder do all the Evangelicals believe in Baptism for the remission of sins or are you just mumbling words?

Last but not least from the Evangelical Allicance website comes the following…

Sola Scriptura

By Tom Clothier

Please give a historical account of the history of the truths that were so long forgotten and buried as well as the efforts to bury them in time commencing with when the burial started and all the efforts to bury them.

Since I was unaware of this and I want to know the truth and the truth will set me free…I want freedom…please lead me…

You can imagine how many of us on this website would appreciate the possibility of being liberated and unshackled from this Church that may have buried the truth.

CopticChristian—

Several times now, on a different threads, you’ve asked me a bunch of questions that don’t pertain to the thread. If I were to answer them, I’d have to veer way off in multiple directions away from the thread topic.

I believe you are intelligent, and understand the idea of at least trying to stay on topic. So, I’m honestly puzzled when you ask me these questions. I’d like to be friendly with you. I actually thought your YouTube links were funny last night. But, I don’t know what to make of it when you request me to discuss various things that I can’t possibly answer while staying within the thread topic.

 

[CopticChristian]

CopticChristian—

Several times now, on a different threads, you’ve asked me a bunch of questions that don’t pertain to the thread. If I were to answer them, I’d have to veer way off in multiple directions away from the thread topic.

I believe you are intelligent, and understand the idea of at least trying to stay on topic. So, I’m honestly puzzled when you ask me these questions. I’d like to be friendly with you. I actually thought your YouTube links were funny last night. But, I don’t know what to make of it when you request me to discuss various things that I can’t possibly answer while staying within the thread topic.

AWM,

I understand your lack of understanding. The thread is Mary as Mother of God and if you look at all the postings, this lack of understanding is based on many things…your answer to this question is an indication that you do not see the bigger picture as is common with those distant from denominational Protestant thought. I expect this type of thinking.

Dispensationalism once eliminated from thought allows the understanding of Covenants and the revelation of God in history to reveal what the kingdom, all Christians claim to be a part of that includes the King, a nation of priests, a holy nation, and the Queen mother. Dispensational thinking has to go away to see it. That is why I challenge Dispensationalists to inquire as to that understanding of Dispensations…grace…law…Church…etc because it does not take into account the revelation of the Kingdom as seen in the OT and was clearly seen by the early Church and is seen today…

Reciting a creed without examing what it is you are citing amounts to the equivalent of the Protestant accusation of vain repitition…just so many words. This is a challenge to examine what it is you are saying.

I understand that you come from a Protestant evangelical background…I understand that you believe that a “relationship with Christ” is all important…I have spoken to the pastors at the churches where you live and heard this…as we spoke…I have heard this before…I understand that you are involved in charitable cooperative work that you really are proud of and happy about and it warms your heart to see people of different stripes cooperating…this is truly wonderful…however this is the Catholic Answers Forum…please note “answers”…I understand that you want to bring the Redding experience here, I do want you to understand that it does not provide any answers for me at least to the truths of Christianity.

I watch so many cooking shows these days. I love Chopped, Iron Chef, and more. I marvel at the ability that these people have speaking about Savory, Sweet, Acid, spicing etc…I cook. I love food. If I were to sit with any of these chefs and start speaking about my cooking experiience and my local neighborhood love of food…I would not achieve the same magnitude of understanding that these people have as they live food…

Catholics are Evangelicals, Catholics strive for a relationship with Christ, Catholics don’t have a miriad of ministries for charity…there is only one…Catholic Charities USA…there is of course St. Vincent DePaul…but when it comes to charitable work…there is none of the independent denominational and non-denominational myriad of ministries to choose from…

When you as an Evangelical come wanting to share your understanding of a relationship with Christ, from my perspective, it is like me cooking going to the Chefs to explain how I make a gastrique…well OK…that is only one element of what they live and know…

Ok, so you want to focus on a relationship with Christ…Amen…there is that of course…to have a relationship with me, you might consider I come from a family, I have siblings, I have parents…As a Catholic the OHCAC is the family of God and as I see it that is the plan of God…the Family…come on in and have that relationship with Christ…he came from and has founded a family…

You may now understand that these questions were to guide you to the bigger picture so that you can understand that Mary is just part of the family…the Queen mother in the Kingdom you will never see or understand unless you examine the questions I ask…

I know…I am a tough nut…sometimes whacky…just understand that my children love me, my sisters love me and when my parents were alive they loved me…did I tell you about Jesus?..

PS…many Protestants I speak to tell me that they are led by the Holy Spirit, many say thy will be led to all truth…sit, pray and ask why were you led to the CAF…and why in the world were you led to encounter people like me?