I don't understand Traditionalism and its hurting my marriage

[Melchior_1]

I think we should not debate theology in this thread, but try to help the poor woman who posted the OP. Her marriage is ill, she is suffering, nd I’m guessing she really doesn’t care about Aquinas right now.

She’s actually the one who brought it up seminary formation and Thomism, and it’s possible that her husband is drawn towards Thomist theology. If that’s the case, a Dominican run parish (especially if they do the Dominican Rite) could be an option for them to attend together.

 

[floresco]

She’s actually the one who brought it up seminary formation and Thomism, and it’s possible that her husband is drawn towards Thomist theology. If that’s the case, a Dominican run parish (especially if they do the Dominican Rite) could be an option for them to attend together.

The Dominicans around here are very liberal. As a trad, I am uncomfortable and suspicious around them. My husband is involved with them and it is a source of tension between us. Based on my experience, I find it very unlikely that your suggestion will help.

 

[Melchior_1]

The Dominicans around here are very liberal. As a trad, I am uncomfortable and suspicious around them. My husband is involved with them and it is a source of tension between us. Based on my experience, I find it very unlikely that your suggestion will help.

When I first went to the FSSP parish around my area, I met several sedevacantists. But that doesn’t mean that any member of the FSSP or other traditionalists I meet are sedevacantists themselves, are they?

If her husband has an interest in Thomist theology, then the Dominicans are logically a good bet. We have a few people on these boards in formation (or discerning formation) with the Third Order, and all three report their areas are as clean as a whistle. Based on my experience, Dominicans are to be trusted and counted on.

It seems that the Original Poster has a good head on her shoulders to know if they are on the up and up. If they are, and if Thomist theology is a mutual interest, it could be something worth looking at.

Of course, if all else fails, Cat’s suggestion of counseling works.

 

[floresco]

I just read “Jacob Dominic”'s post inside of Diana Catherine’s post,

but I cannot find Jacob Dominic’s actual post

I would really like to know where this FSSP parish is located, it sounds amazing! Unless I am going blind I can’t find his post ??:

His post contained a violation of the rules so I assume it has been removed. I do not see his name on the members list either, so apparently he was banned too. I’m sorry. I do not know of any way you can contact him to ask your question.

 

[plefe]

Kate, I am in this same situation. In our marriage, I am the trad and my husband a faithful Catholic who prefers the OF Mass. This was hurting our marriage a lot and we were really struggling to understand each other. I went to a priest for advice and I found his words very helpful.

I had told the priest that I felt like I was in a mixed marriage and told me that it was important to be clear in my mind that I was not. My husband and I are both Catholic. Although we are disagreeing about some matters, we share the same faith. It has helped me to keep reminding myself of this.

I am like your husband in that attending the Ordinary Form of the Mass is very difficult for me. It is filled with things that distract and annoy me. I feel out of place there. I leave feeling spiritually and emotionally drained, rather than nourished and uplifted. At the Latin Mass (aka the Extraordinary Form), I feel at home and at peace. The words of the Mass make more sense to me as an expression of the Catholic faith. I feel more connected to the Church throughout history.

It is not that I think that people who go to Ordinary Form are bad Catholics. I know that my husband is a good man and a good Catholic. He is a better Catholic than I am. He is not doing anything wrong by attending a Mass that is approved by the Church.

I think that the situation for trad/non-trad marriages will improve if the SSPX is regularized. I think this regularization would bring with it some guidelines that will help us. And perhaps you could try to be more sympathetic to the SSPX by looking at it from their perspective.

Archbishop Lefebvre was acting out of love for the faith and concern for souls. It was a time when the traditional Latin Mass was being suppressed and many Catholics were hurt and bewildered by the changes. He wanted to preserve the Mass to help these people. He believed that he was forced by necessity to ordain bishops without the permission of the Pope. He was a good man acting from good motives living in confusing times when it was hard to see what was the right thing to do. Some people were using Vatican II as an excuse to change the Faith. Catholicism seemed under attack.

Thank you for the Blessing I have received this morning from your words. God Love You. In Jesus,Mary, and Joseph

 

[Chatter163]

Thomistic theology is still available in several seminaries not associated with the FSSP ICRSS. Further, some prospective priests study Thomism on the way to their degrees.

And of course, you are more than welcome to challenge some of my family members in the arena of Thomism

You are not reading my posts carefully. At no time did I say that Thomistic theology was unavailable outside of the FSSP and ICRSS. I said that Thomistic theology was the basis for the formation of traditonalist orders such as FSSP and ICRSS. Thomistic theology is extremely associated with those orders, because it is the identifying feature of their formatiion–not only their theological coursework, but their entire spiritual formation. Their seminary rectors are quite clear about this, and when asked how their formation differes from that of a typical diocesan seminary, one of the first things that they mention is the Thomistic basis of their formation.

This does not mean that they have a monopoly on it, but most seminaries today do not emphasize it as they did in the past. A religious order, such as the Dominicans, is more likely to expose its seminarians to it, but even then, it is only one aspect of their formation. There are many Dominicans running around (not as many as twenty years ago, but still plenty) who spout creation spirituality, a la Matthew Fox. This is not possible with the FSSP and ICRSS, who use a completelty traditional mode of formation.

 

[Melchior_1]

This is not possible with the FSSP and ICRSS, who use a completelty traditional mode of formation.

It’s entirely possible for members of the FSSP and the ICRSS to have faulty formation, but that’s a discussion for another thread.

Another possible suggestion for you, Kate; perhaps find some shared devotional practices like the Rosary or Liturgy of the Hours. Hvaing a shared ground on those things (especially LOTH) might carry over to Liturgical practices.

 

[Chatter163]

It’s entirely possible for members of the FSSP and the ICRSS to have faulty formation, but that’s a discussion for another thread.

Another possible suggestion for you, Kate; perhaps find some shared devotional practices like the Rosary or Liturgy of the Hours. Hvaing a shared ground on those things (especially LOTH) might carry over to Liturgical practices.

Again, you you are not reading carefully, and in this instance you are isolating one sentence and disregarding context. I did NOT say that it was not possible for FSSP and ICRSS to have a faulty formation. I said that it was not possible for them to spew creation spirituality. This is against their formation (and it would arouse the ire of their superiors).

 

[Nightflier101BL]

My wife and I are in the same situation. I’m a relatively new Catholic and have grown a strong appreciation for the TLM while my wife is a cradle Catholic who prefers to attend the OF at our parish. If I could have it my way, I would go to the TLM exclusively, but she and I have compromised - 2 weeks out of the month, we go to the TLM and the other 2, we go to our parish. We’ve also found a mass that we both really enjoy which is an added bonus, the Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem in Charles Town, WV which has helped my wife appreciate the Latin since they are very accommodating with folks who are new to the TLM.

I also know how you feel about feeling judged. Another parish where I attend the TLM is the same way. Everyone has 10+ kids while my wife and I have none. On top of that, my wife and I had confession with one of the priests who is very hardcore Traditionalist and was stern and angry, and somewhat unsympathetic during her confession, which didn’t help matters for my wife.

We have to remember why we are all there. It’s uncomfortable to feel judged and unwelcome, but we don’t know for sure if that’s really the case. Is God going to care if you wear a veil, or if you don’t have enough kids, absolutely not. We’re all trying to reach the same goal. If someone judges you, pray for them and ask God for patience. Just try to look past that issue and stay focused on the Mass.

Definitely express your concerns with your husband. He should be able to compromise with you and find a situation that would best for you both. Believe me, I try like heck all the time to get my wife to go to the TLM all the time, but I also understand my responsibilities as a husband in the way that I need to choose the best situation for our family ( as small as it may be!). I don’t want my wife to feel uncomfortable or out of place and definitely don’t want to uproot her out of our parish for my own selfish reasons. Maybe he’ll see it that way, too?

Hope this helps!

Robert

 

[Chatter163]

My wife and I are in the same situation. I’m a relatively new Catholic and have grown a strong appreciation for the TLM while my wife is a cradle Catholic who prefers to attend the OF at our parish. If I could have it my way, I would go to the TLM exclusively, but she and I have compromised - 2 weeks out of the month, we go to the TLM and the other 2, we go to our parish. We’ve also found a mass that we both really enjoy which is an added bonus, the Canons Regular of the New Jerusalem in Charles Town, WV which has helped my wife appreciate the Latin since they are very accommodating with folks who are new to the TLM.

I also know how you feel about feeling judged. Another parish where I attend the TLM is the same way. Everyone has 10+ kids while my wife and I have none. On top of that, my wife and I had confession with one of the priests who is very hardcore Traditionalist and was stern and angry, and somewhat unsympathetic during her confession, which didn’t help matters for my wife.

We have to remember why we are all there. It’s uncomfortable to feel judged and unwelcome, but we don’t know for sure if that’s really the case. Is God going to care if you wear a veil, or if you don’t have enough kids, absolutely not. We’re all trying to reach the same goal. If someone judges you, pray for them and ask God for patience. Just try to look past that issue and stay focused on the Mass.

Definitely express your concerns with your husband. He should be able to compromise with you and find a situation that would best for you both. Believe me, I try like heck all the time to get my wife to go to the TLM all the time, but I also understand my responsibilities as a husband in the way that I need to choose the best situation for our family ( as small as it may be!). I don’t want my wife to feel uncomfortable or out of place and definitely don’t want to uproot her out of our parish for my own selfish reasons. Maybe he’ll see it that way, too?

An excellent point. There seems to be a good deal of speculation about being judged, but no one has actually said they are. We tend to see large families like that, and then feel guilty or inadequate, but does that mean one is being judged by them? I have had visitors come to our FSSP parish and see the large families and say the same thing, only to say later on that everyone was polite and welcoming, and good new freindships were formed. Their first conclusion came from their own emotions, rather than anything that was said to them.

 

[TempleServant]

Traditionalists are angry because of the wild changes of the past 40 years. They are thus suspicious of anthing smacking of liberalism. They are tired of the continuous scandals.

I say just see to your own sanctification and preach the Gospel to those who have ears to hear it.

You can compare notes in the next world, depending on who’s there to meet up with that you know. And on where you end up.

 

[NFP1Kate]

You are right, I have not actually been judged as far as I know. I just feel like if they knew me, then they would think I was the liberal of the bunch and not like me. Someone who left the traditional parish and is now at my own parish told me she has 7 kids, but was not really ready to have more than 4. She said so many of the older moms put pressure on her to have more that she did so while battling postpartum depression.

This story has haunted me and made me feel unnecessarily biased. I will have more children in the future, but I worry they would judge me if I am not ready. It might be silly to worry about this. But when I sit there in the pews not knowing anyone or understanding the Latin my mind wonders to this woman’s story. I can’t seem to get passed it, even though I want to. My husband needs this from me, and I want to love the Latin Mass as much as he does. I feel so shameful in saying that though.

 

[Loveolivia]

http://www.castoffdebt.comlol

 

[Rich_C]

I’ll say a prayer for the both of you. You both need to be spiritually fed at Mass, and I pray God delivers the answer soon.

 

[floresco]

This story has haunted me and made me feel unnecessarily biased. I will have more children in the future, but I worry they would judge me if I am not ready. It might be silly to worry about this. But when I sit there in the pews not knowing anyone or understanding the Latin my mind wonders to this woman’s story. I can’t seem to get passed it, even though I want to. My husband needs this from me, and I want to love the Latin Mass as much as he does. I feel so shameful in saying that though.

I suggest you take that story with a grain of salt. I’m not saying that the woman was lying to you, but it possible that when she was experiencing PPD she told herself that she did not really want her children and only had them because others pressured her. That is the sort of thing that depressed people think.

Do you really think that women at church could pressure you into having children that you don’t want to have? I can’t imagine myself by influenced by others like this in a matter that is none of their business.

 

[OraLabora]

His post contained a violation of the rules so I assume it has been removed. I do not see his name on the members list either, so apparently he was banned too. I’m sorry. I do not know of any way you can contact him to ask your question.

Where are you in Canada? I attend a very reverent OF Mass in Gregorian chant and French plainchant. That might be a good compromise for folks in this kind of marital bind; there might be a local reverent OF Mass. Perhaps check out local shrines, religious orders, etc.

 

[floresco]

Where are you in Canada? I attend a very reverent OF Mass in Gregorian chant and French plainchant. That might be a good compromise for folks in this kind of marital bind; there might be a local reverent OF Mass. Perhaps check out local shrines, religious orders, etc.

My husband, seeing how distressed I become at the OF, pulled rank and insisted that I attend the EF. He often comes with me, since the EF does not bother him; he just prefers OF.

 

[WesleyM]

You are right, I have not actually been judged as far as I know. I just feel like if they knew me, then they would think I was the liberal of the bunch and not like me. Someone who left the traditional parish and is now at my own parish told me she has 7 kids, but was not really ready to have more than 4. She said so many of the older moms put pressure on her to have more that she did so while battling postpartum depression.

This story has haunted me and made me feel unnecessarily biased. I will have more children in the future, but I worry they would judge me if I am not ready. It might be silly to worry about this. But when I sit there in the pews not knowing anyone or understanding the Latin my mind wonders to this woman’s story. I can’t seem to get passed it, even though I want to. My husband needs this from me, and I want to love the Latin Mass as much as he does. I feel so shameful in saying that though.

I come from a family of being the only child. The idea of two children seemed like a lot to me.

However, I can assure you that now having six surviving children with an eigth on the way (we had one baby die) it is the best thing in the world!

Bundle up all that joy of one and multiply it. It’s as simple as that.

Do not be afraid to have as many children as God will give you. That is why we put our Trust in Him. It is the secular post-Christian world that rails against having children and makes the false claims that the human body can not handle it.

We must put our trust in God that He was smart enough to create our bodies to do such things.

(Kind of sounds silly said like that, doesn’t it? - it’s really no more silly than doubting that God would give us a cross we could not bear.)

You have no idea how many more children you will be given anyway. Some people can never have children. Count your blessings you have been given some.

As for not understanding the Latin, do you not have a Missal?

As for the woman who was “forced” into having more, we need only read the Catechism to see that we must always be open to life. Perhaps she was merely reminded it is not our choice to limit the number of children we are to have and that is the purpose of marriage (and naturally by extension the marital act)? The Church is quite clear in it’s teachings that to use artificial contraception is a mortal sin.

Yes, there is natural family planning - but there must still be a grave enough reason to use that.

You said you were young, how can you have had 10 kids already? (let alone know you will ever have any more?) I am sure they will not judge you. Your attendance at the traditional Mass alone would be enough to ensure anyone you follow the Church’s teachings.

I know I have stated a lot, but I have tried to be as concise as possible and I feel your questions and your concerns deserve a lot.

 

[OraLabora]

I have to say, I find it heartbreaking how the OF vs EF issue is causing division and dissension within Catholic families.

The more I think of it, the more I realize that allowing the two rites to exist together is a blow against unity within even our own family. It makes it hard to preach unity to other Christians. I hope the Church can find a solution.

 

[RyanBlack]

I come from a family of being the only child. The idea of two children seemed like a lot to me.

However, I can assure you that now having six surviving children with an eigth on the way (we had one baby die) it is the best thing in the world!

Bundle up all that joy of one and multiply it. It’s as simple as that.

Do not be afraid to have as many children as God will give you. That is why we put our Trust in Him. It is the secular post-Christian world that rails against having children and makes the false claims that the human body can not handle it.

We must put our trust in God that He was smart enough to create our bodies to do such things.

(Kind of sounds silly said like that, doesn’t it? - it’s really no more silly than doubting that God would give us a cross we could not bear.)

You have no idea how many more children you will be given anyway. Some people can never have children. Count your blessings you have been given some.

As for not understanding the Latin, do you not have a Missal?

As for the woman who was “forced” into having more, we need only read the Catechism to see that we must always be open to life. Perhaps she was merely reminded it is not our choice to limit the number of children we are to have and that is the purpose of marriage (and naturally by extension the marital act)? The Church is quite clear in it’s teachings that to use artificial contraception is a mortal sin.

Yes, there is natural family planning - but there must still be a grave enough reason to use that.

You said you were young, how can you have had 10 kids already? (let alone know you will ever have any more?) I am sure they will not judge you. Your attendance at the traditional Mass alone would be enough to ensure anyone you follow the Church’s teachings.

I know I have stated a lot, but I have tried to be as concise as possible and I feel your questions and your concerns deserve a lot.

First of all, please accept my sympathies for the loss of your child, and my congratulations for the child who is on the way.

However, for many people, taking the joy of one child and multiplying by seven, or ten, or twelve, or even by some smaller number, such as three, isn’t “just as simple as that.” I’m glad that it’s turned out that way for you, but that really isn’t the case for everyone.

Furthermore, it should be clear that some women have good reason to fear pregnancy, and their bodies cannot handle multiple pregnancies. I’m not saying that this is the norm, but pregnancy is terribly risky for some women. Putting our trust in God doesn’t mean setting aside the intelligence and good judgment he has given us-and sometimes, the use of that intelligence and good judgment involves a decision to have a small family.

You say that it is not our choice to limit the number of children we are to have. That’s not quite what the Church teaches. We are not to do so using sinful methods, however, we are not absolutely prohibited from limiting the number of children we have. Finally, the reasons we must have for choosing to limit the number of children we have through natural planning, must be “serious,” but do not have to rise to the level of “grave.”