I don't understand Traditionalism and its hurting my marriage

[mattkubes]

The more I think of it, the more I realize that allowing the two rites to exist together is a blow against unity within even our own family. It makes it hard to preach unity to other Christians. I hope the Church can find a solution.

Of course the NO/TLM are not described as separate rites, but even if the NO was abrogated, that would leave us with all sorts of Monastic Rites and the Eastern Rites.

No, the problem is much more fundamental than one of numbers.

 

[OraLabora]

Of course the NO/TLM are not described as separate rites, but even if the NO was abrogated, that would leave us with all sorts of Monastic Rites and the Eastern Rites.

No, the problem is much more fundamental than one of numbers.

Well whatever but monastic rites are unlikely to be attended regularly by the average parishioner and the Eastern Churches are also specific ecclesial communities that is unlikely to be encounters by the average parishioner of the Roman Church.

I still say that allowing both forms of the same rite is divisive. This forum is plenty of evidence of that. I myself prefer retaining the OF; the liturgical calendar is more sensible, the feasts are simplified, and the other part of the liturgy, the Divine Office, is made within reach of the laity. I also prefer the lectionary. If the Mass itself were celebrated as originally intended we probably would not have had such a large demand for the EF.

I would of course also welcome a hybrid, say returning much more of the elements of the EF Mass into the Mass but with wider allowance for the vernacular and the current structure of the liturgical year, and tighter rubrics to discourage abuse.

As a Bnedictine oblate, speaking with our abbot, there’s very little stomach in monasteries to go back to the EF because that implies the old liturgical calendar. That calendar with so many feasts, 15 octaves a year, and complexity virtually forced monasteries to divide the community into choir monks responsible for liturgy and lay brothers responsible for work. This resulted in a major departure from St Benedict’s ideal of all brothers being equal. With ageing communities a return to the EF would be a major hardship for them.

As it is our community is declining in numbers and health and increasing in average age. Yet they do the full psalter of 150 psalms per week with Lauds and Vespers and the Mass in Gregorian chant. Theirs is a model for what the OF can be.

This opinion is in fact coming from a very orthodox and conservative abbot.

I certainly think the EF is valid and a beautiful expression of the Roman Rite and it’s history, and if the Church took that direction instead I wouldn’t argue, but I hope she would in particular keep the other aspects of the Liturgy within reach of the laity in particular the Divine Office.

 

[thewanderer]

The problem is not so much that two different forms are available but that people having grown attached to one have become intolerant of the other. There are many Catholics who, while having a personal preference, are willing to attend either and do not make the mistake of judging the one they prefer to be objectively better. The division comes in because many Catholics feel as though they are being judged for their perfectly legitimate preferences. I also really doubt getting rid of one of the forms will fix the problem, those who are fine with either though they have their own preference will submit without too mug grumbling, but what about the rest? Haven’t we already seen with SSPX the extent that some will go if their preferences are not respected? No, this is a problem that is going to take a long time to fix, and much prayer and teaching.

 

[couponfit]

I don’t think I even know how to phrase this question. I am Catholic, always have been, and raised in a post Vatican II Church.

My husband became a Traditionalist 3 months after we were married and it has been very difficult to understand and reconcile this change in him.

I am very conservative and I follow Church teaching as closely as I know how to. My husband doesn’t like going to Mass at our Parish, he sometimes wonders if it is valid, and he wants to go to the Latin Mass exclusively and live like those people do. I don’t understand how I am doing anything wrong if I am following our Church and doctrines.

I have been reading that the SSPX community might be in full communion soon. I don’t have any idea what that means for us. I have read that Archbishop Lefevbre abandoned the Church, and taught that the devil penetrated the officials and the faithful should only go to his Church. How is that not the same thing Martin Luther did??

Everyone is in growing in faith indepdent of others in the CC. We all expeirence it differently and have different needs and different ways of belonging learning.

Just find a church which has a latin mass and attend that if that’s what he enjoys. If the issue is he does not, then attend both. Attend his latin and and he attends OF. It’s best to go to church together. Give it a chance, and open your heart to the beauty of mass. I mean if that’s what it takes, then let him have his journey. I assure you there are far worst faith paths he could choose than this. Also, listen to him, since he’s the one with the desire, to identify what he’s looking for. As for SSPX, I believe every diocese now adays has a latin mass available with priests who are in communion with the church. I’m not involved with SSPX. But there are many great groups out there that are in communion with the church. Opus Dei comes to mind (but you migh not want to introduce him to that). I sometimes go to Latin mass because my wifes parents prefer it. I do that out of love and because it is within my faith and I get blessed by doing so (in ways I can’t describe).

One thing I know for sure, is that when the holy spirit calls a person as strongly as it has called your husband (as it seems) then I’d be willing to go along with the path as it is a catholic path to follow. You’ll just have to push to attend the Diocese latin service by simply going there and having him come. He’ll like that. If that won’t work due to distance, then try attend an EC church. Oh boy, he’ll love those a lot. Before taking him to these, attend on your own during a weeday or saturday service.

 

[silverdenali]

I would rest assured he’s completely out of line.

 

[thewanderer]

I don’t think I even know how to phrase this question. I am Catholic, always have been, and raised in a post Vatican II Church.

My husband became a Traditionalist 3 months after we were married and it has been very difficult to understand and reconcile this change in him.

I am very conservative and I follow Church teaching as closely as I know how to. My husband doesn’t like going to Mass at our Parish, he sometimes wonders if it is valid, and he wants to go to the Latin Mass exclusively and live like those people do. I don’t understand how I am doing anything wrong if I am following our Church and doctrines.

I have been reading that the SSPX community might be in full communion soon. I don’t have any idea what that means for us. I have read that Archbishop Lefevbre abandoned the Church, and taught that the devil penetrated the officials and the faithful should only go to his Church. How is that not the same thing Martin Luther did??

I think the problem here is not that he has a preference for the EF, or even that he cannot concentrate on the sacred myteries while attending the OF, but rather that he is getting to the point where he believes the OF is invalid. it sounds as though you are feeling judged by your spouse which of course is going to start a rift in your marriage unless you can find a way to fix it. I personally would look for whoever or whatever it is that is influencing him to the point of thinking the OF is invalid. It is a sad fact that often this kind of judgement gets perpetuated through good people passing it along from one to the next under the false impression of doing right by God and His liturgy. You need to find out who it is that is influencing him and to the best of your ability remove him from this influence. I think you also need to talk to him about the fact that you feel judged even though you are following Church teaching and that that hurts you deeply. Perhaps even talk about the spiritual warfare that Satan often employs against married couples. Also, you should make a big effort to attend the EF as often as you can with him. If not the EF then try to find the most traditional OF that you can etc as others have said. This is obviously something he feels very strongly about so it is probably a place to give in on. I hope this is helpful, I will certainly say some prayers for you!

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I would rest assured he’s completely out of line.

So far, your contributions to the forum aren’t impressive. This post, in particular, adds exactly -0- to the discussion.

 

[Giuseppe_Gavino]

I don’t think I even know how to phrase this question. I am Catholic, always have been, and raised in a post Vatican II Church.

My husband became a Traditionalist 3 months after we were married and it has been very difficult to understand and reconcile this change in him.

I am very conservative and I follow Church teaching as closely as I know how to. My husband doesn’t like going to Mass at our Parish, he sometimes wonders if it is valid, and he wants to go to the Latin Mass exclusively and live like those people do. I don’t understand how I am doing anything wrong if I am following our Church and doctrines.

Hello Kate,

I think the best thing you and your husband could do would be to work together as a team to dispell some of the myths you two hold regarding the two forms of the Mass and the types of people that frequent them. Maybe you two could both have a sit down with a priest from each parish and go over some of the differences you preceive to be stumbling blocks. Maybe you can introduce yourself to some of the other families that frequent the EF and get to know them better?

I would recommend both of you put this in your prayer intentions and to pray together for a solution. I will keep your family in my prayers as well.

God Bless.

 

[moon1234]

What your husband may be discovering is the loss of the reverance with the OF that is pervasive in MOST churchs. The rubrics of the EF do not allow abuses and the music is almost always very traditional and beautiful.

In a man’s mind this will lead him to wonder why this was ever changed. If he is like me, he will start reading about how these changes to the Mass came about. He will see that the OF that we have today is NOT what the council asked for. He will read that Latin is to be taught to all Catholics, that Gregorian Chant is to have pride of place, etc. These are all in the official council documents, yet ignored in most places.

This will naturally lead to suspicion that the local OF priests are allowing abuses, not conforming to the official documents of the council, etc. This will then lead to more research, etc.

In the end, he may as I have, find that the EF offers a rich history that is almost 100% free of abuses, etc. It will offer him the ability to worship in the same way that most of the saints through history worshiped. In essence it will seem MORE Catholic than the OF.

I have to admit that I grew up a cradle Catholic attending the OF. As I became an adult I started researching my faith more. I wanted to KNOW more about my faith. When I learned that there was a different Mass that was radically different from what I knew, I was very curious. As I learned more I too began to question why changes were made. It seemed change was made for no real reason other than to conform to the times.

I ultimately switched to attending the EF exclusively. My wife and I were married by the ICRSS (EF community erected by Pope JPII) in 1999.

To this day I have problems attending the NO. Do I think it is invalid? No. Do I think it lacks the solemnity and beauty of the EF, most definitly yes. A good example came from my 5 year old daughter. All she has experienced her whole life is EF Mass. My wife wound up needing to go to an OF Mass where the Bishop and the Vicar General were attending. It was Ash wednesday and she could not make the 6:30am EF Mass at our normal parish (Diocese parish).

My wife sat in the back as she had 5 kids with. When the Bishop came out for the procession she announced in an audible voice “Mom, there is Bishop Morlino” then she said “But who is that man with him?” My wife, a little embarassed whispered “That is the Priest.” My daughter responded “He doesn’t look like a Priest, he is not wearing any vestments and doesn’t look like a Catholic Priest.” She then said “Are you sure this Church is Catholic? Where is Jesus in his tabernacle and where is the altar?” My daughter is used to seeing the tabernacle on the high altar. This Church had only the table altar and the tabernacle was no where to be seen. I assume it was in some side capel or somewhere else.

Needless to say both the Bishop and the vicar turned to look at my wife. It had to have made an impression on the Bishop if a five year old can recognize aspects of her faith that were missing from common view.

These concepts are very important to most men. Our brains work differently than women. Most men like logical order and find that in the EF.

Maybe none of this helped, but maybe it provides a clue as to why he feels the way he does. Maybe seeing reform of the reform and talk about more reform is just bewildering to him and he wants a shelter from the chaos and has found that in the EF.

In any event, PLEASE don’t feel judged at an EF parish. I never judge anyone when I see a new face. I am just happy they are there.

 

[fpt]

I don’t think I even know how to phrase this question. I am Catholic, always have been, and raised in a post Vatican II Church.

My husband became a Traditionalist 3 months after we were married and it has been very difficult to understand and reconcile this change in him.

I am very conservative and I follow Church teaching as closely as I know how to. My husband doesn’t like going to Mass at our Parish, he sometimes wonders if it is valid, and he wants to go to the Latin Mass exclusively and live like those people do. I don’t understand how I am doing anything wrong if I am following our Church and doctrines.

I have been reading that the SSPX community might be in full communion soon. I don’t have any idea what that means for us. I have read that Archbishop Lefevbre abandoned the Church, and taught that the devil penetrated the officials and the faithful should only go to his Church. How is that not the same thing Martin Luther did??

I know very well these movements (SSPX not in a normal canonical situation, for the moment as catholics we have to avoid to have an active participation at the SSPX’s Mass, I mean no communion, because the mass is valid but illicit, the priest is “vagus” and in function of when he was ordained as priest, ---- (before 1988 or after; to 1988 to 2009; and 2009 until now) — thus, the personnal situation of each priests of SSPX is different.

By prudence, you husband has to go to the Latine mass called the extraodinary form of the latin rite in link with the official catholic hiearchy: (his moral catholic duty). For Instance : FSSP, Institute of Christ the King Sovereign Priest or Local official priest who celebrate in this form, or if there is nothing of traditional, he should go to the " vernacular mass" near your home with you.

The vernacular form of mass is valid, by principle, because the Popes, Paul VI, J-P II and Benedict XVI are the true leaders and the only chiefs of catholic Church, who are protected by the Holy spirit on the important topics (The faith and thus liturgy and moral).

Since Vatican II , there have been many philosophical debates, many theological debates, many canonical debates, many cultural debates concerning the texts of vatican II, the types of practices…ect.

The debates are existing.

 

[fpt]

She’s actually the one who brought it up seminary formation and Thomism, and it’s possible that her husband is drawn towards Thomist theology. If that’s the case, a Dominican run parish (especially if they do the Dominican Rite) could be an option for them to attend together.

He wants live like those people do.

What do you mean? What does he mean???

 

[fpt]

I don’t think I even know how to phrase this question. I am Catholic, always have been, and raised in a post Vatican II Church.

My husband became a Traditionalist 3 months after we were married and it has been very difficult to understand and reconcile this change in him.

I am very conservative and I follow Church teaching as closely as I know how to. My husband doesn’t like going to Mass at our Parish, he sometimes wonders if it is valid, and he wants to go to the Latin Mass exclusively and live like those people do. I don’t understand how I am doing anything wrong if I am following our Church and doctrines.

I have been reading that the SSPX community might be in full communion soon. I don’t have any idea what that means for us. I have read that Archbishop Lefevbre abandoned the Church, and taught that the devil penetrated the officials and the faithful should only go to his Church. How is that not the same thing Martin Luther did??

Sorry, but the veil at mass is not a moral obligation from the natural law, is not a moral duty from the natural law and is not a canonical duty.

The veil, at the latin mass, is not a requirement; If a person says to you that, even a priest, its point of view is totally false. If you are not okay with, you can go to the mass without nothing on your head. By principle, you husband cannot impose you the veil or a “stuff” on your head during the mass (no authority).

If a man, a woman, a kid, a priest makes a loudly allusion to you in front of the parishioners because you do not wear the veil at mass, they are… very very weird and with a big lack of catholic knowledges. If you do not want wear the veil at mass, you are totally free.

SSPX is not the catholic church, she has many wrong habits and the lays of this movement are often too much strange concerning some topics in link with the couple, the family life, the role of husband and the role of wife, the education of boys and girls, the health and the modern medecine, the view on reponsible procreation (NFP) etc.

You have to stay: yourself, prudent, truly free, a wife ( I mean a lover, a soulmate, a spouse, a mother, a woman (female), a human being, a best-friend, a girl-friend, a beloved for your husband). The same for your husband (egality and the equity).

Discern is the key, be prudent and do not be naive.

 

[fpt]

The conjugal jansenism, the marital puritanism, the marital victorianism, the conjugal rigorism, the marital moralism, the marital sexism, the marital masculinist are quite existing directly or indirectly in this movement.

The misinformation, the misunderstandings, the prejudices and false ideas are, because the fear of the sin is too much important ( the scrupulism) and because they do not want to study some texts from Popes — Jean XXIII untill Benedict XVI) — concerning the marriage. For them, the dogmas are everywhere before vatican II.

As catholic who knows the traditional movements, Since 2008, I am looking for information on different topics, the principal being the marriage, because i would like if i have time, one day, to write a doctorate in law about a subtopic of catholic marriage: elements of law, elements of moral, elements of philosophy, elements of theology. My purpose is to struggle against false ideas, prejudices, the bad mentalities, the taboos in the catholicism…etc.

I have many quotations from catholics that are very weird, thus by my academic thesis or my book in the future, if i have time, I would like to be a catholic lay who will be capable to help catholic couples about the family life and the conjugal physical love in the respect of natural law and the divine law without taboo. Talking very freely has to be the rule in the couple, even on the private and very sexual topics. People of this movement are sometimes very strict, too much spiritual, and they want to be as an angel.

 

[maryjk]

My wife sat in the back as she had 5 kids with. When the Bishop came out for the procession she announced in an audible voice “Mom, there is Bishop Morlino” then she said “But who is that man with him?” My wife, a little embarassed whispered “That is the Priest.” My daughter responded “He doesn’t look like a Priest, he is not wearing any vestments and doesn’t look like a Catholic Priest.” She then said “Are you sure this Church is Catholic? Where is Jesus in his tabernacle and where is the altar?” My daughter is used to seeing the tabernacle on the high altar. This Church had only the table altar and the tabernacle was no where to be seen. I assume it was in some side capel or somewhere else.

Needless to say both the Bishop and the vicar turned to look at my wife. It had to have made an impression on the Bishop if a five year old can recognize aspects of her faith that were missing from common view.

These concepts are very important to most men. Our brains work differently than women. Most men like logical order and find that in the EF.

Maybe none of this helped, but maybe it provides a clue as to why he feels the way he does. Maybe seeing reform of the reform and talk about more reform is just bewildering to him and he wants a shelter from the chaos and has found that in the EF.

In any event, PLEASE don’t feel judged at an EF parish. ** I never judge anyone when I see a new face.** I am just happy they are there.

You may not judge people when you see them at a EF Mass, But it seems that you are teaching your daughter to judge those that attend an OF Mass. Or at least to judge the Mass as inferior.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

You may not judge people when you see them at a EF Mass, But it seems that you are teaching your daughter to judge those that attend an OF Mass. Or at least to judge the Mass as inferior.

There is a difference between judging the OF as officially promulgated and judging the OF as commonly celebrated. He tried to make that point by pointing out how the OF almost consistently is lacking chant, Latin, etc, despite the conciliar documents. As commonly celebrated, the OF appears less reverent and less connected to our Catholic past, heritage, and culture. Of course I know there are exceptions out there, but again, I am referring to the OF as commonly celebrated.

My 10 year old son is not Catholic. He is being raised Mormon (from my Mormon marriage 10 years ago before I converted). I take him to Mass with me when I have the chance, which unfortunately is not very often. The last Mass I took him to was a weekday OF. When the EMHCs came up to the altar to receive communion, he leaned over to me and asked why they were touching communion with their hand. He actually said, “they’re not supposed to do that, right?” I was floored. I had never talked to him about COTT or CITH. He just picked it up from watching how things are done at EF Masses.

I don’t bring this up to derail into COTT and CITH, so please don’t. I bring it up to show how easily children learn from what they see at Mass, in order to counter the charge that moon1234 is teaching his daughter to judge the OF. In fact, we all learn from the way the sacraments are celebrated. Lex orendi, lex credendi.

• PAX

 

[maryjk]

There is a difference between judging the OF as officially promulgated and judging the OF as commonly celebrated. He tried to make that point by pointing out how the OF almost consistently is lacking chant, Latin, etc, despite the conciliar documents. As commonly celebrated, the OF appears less reverent and less connected to our Catholic past, heritage, and culture. Of course I know there are exceptions out there, but again, I am referring to the OF as commonly celebrated.

My 10 year old son is not Catholic. He is being raised Mormon (from my Mormon marriage 10 years ago before I converted). I take him to Mass with me when I have the chance, which unfortunately is not very often. The last Mass I took him to was a weekday OF. When the EMHCs came up to the altar to receive communion, he leaned over to me and asked why they were touching communion with their hand. He actually said, “they’re not supposed to do that, right?” I was floored. I had never talked to him about COTT or CITH. He just picked it up from watching how things are done at EF Masses.

But he is wrong. There is nothing wrong with touching the Host. And by only taking him to the EF, you are teaching him things that are wrong.

I don’t bring this up to derail into COTT and CITH, so please don’t. I bring it up to show how easily children learn from what they see at Mass, in order to counter the charge that moon1234 is teaching his daughter to judge the OF. In fact, we all learn from the way the sacraments are celebrated. Lex orendi, lex credendi.

• PAX

Again, you are teaching him things that are incorrect. If your son, or moon1234’s daughter thinks that you are required to receive kneeling and on the tongue, than you are teaching them requirements of the Catholic faith that aren’t requirements.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

And by only taking him to the EF, you are teaching him things that are wrong.

1. I’m not only taking him to the EF, as my post clearly points out.
2. I have a very strong feeling that if I posted: “And by only taking him to the OF, you are teaching him things that are wrong” then I would have a bunch of people jump all over me for judging the OF. So, please stop judging the EF.

• PAX

Edited to add:

1. There is absolutely no requirement that we have to go to both forms of the Mass. A faithful Catholic could solely attend only one form and it wouldn’t be a problem, as long as that form is celebrated according the rubrics and the mind of the Church.

 

[thewanderer]

I would just like to point out that just because an OF mass doesn’t have Latin or chant does not mean that it is invalid, illicit, or even irreverent. This is allowed even if it is currently done more than it was meant to be done. So many traditionalists talk about the importance of organic change. This is precisely the reason why things can’t just change en masse back to the EF, or even to all Latin with chant everywhere. For many, many people this would be the very same ripping out of all their practices that was already suffered through after VII. I’m putting this out there because I hope it will help your husband, nfp1kate, to understand that while many of these practices may not be to his liking they are technically allowed and one of the reasons they continue as prevalently as they do is the very principle of organic change which traditionalists hold so dear. I hope this helps.

 

[thewanderer]

1. I’m not only taking him to the EF, as my post clearly points out.
2. I have a very strong feeling that if I posted: “And by only taking him to the OF, you are teaching him things that are wrong” then I would have a bunch of people jump all over me for judging the OF. So, please stop judging the EF.

• PAX

Edited to add:

1. There is absolutely no requirement that we have to go to both forms of the Mass. A faithful Catholic could solely attend only one form and it wouldn’t be a problem, as long as that form is celebrated according the rubrics and the mind of the Church.

I think the point is that you made it appear as though you did not correct your Childs
misunderstanding that receiving CITH is wrong. This has nothing to do with bringing your child exclusively to the EF, it’s about allowing him to believe certain things are required when they actually aren’t. It’s possible to still encourage and teach a child to do things one way without letting him believe that anything else is wrong.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

I think the point is that you made it appear as though you did not correct your Childs misunderstanding that receiving commiunion standing is wrong. This has nothing to do with bringing your child exclusively to the EF, it’s about allowing him to believe certain things are required when they actually aren’t. It’s possible to still encourage and teach a child to do things one way without letting him believe that anything else is wrong.

I brought it up as an example of how someone learns just by watching without formal instruction. Perhaps it was a poor or inflammatory example on my part; I apologize. And to complete the story, I also told my son that at this type of Mass people are allowed to touch communion because of special permission granted by the Pope. I did, of course, also tell him that when the Pope celebrates Mass, you cannot touch communion

• PAX