I enjoy the Novus Ordo Mass ...

[ac_claire]

But, I will say that the Dominicans at St. Patrick’s offer about the most beautiful and reverent Novus Ordo Mass in the diocese of Columbus.
For communion everyone receives kneeling at the altar rail.

thanks for the info! I’ve never done anything like this (kneeling at communion, etc.) at a NO mass. I’m really looking forward to it.

And the priests typically hear confessions 7 days a week before or after every Mass

I can’t even tell you how much I wish more parishes did this…

 

[AJV]

Pride is an easy thing for anyone to fall into. Many traditional Catholics are so upset by the constant irreverence and watered-down version of Catholicism that is being forced down our throats. Many people are just so passionate on this subject that they often come across as arrogant. I have struggled with pride during debates. It’s possibly the easiest sin to commit. That doesn’t excuse posters who are arrogant, but it doesn’t make what they say wrong.

However, so many people on this forum are so ready to cry out the classic lines: “you think you’re better than I am!” and “stop judging me! I’m not less Catholic than you!” I believe that the TLM is better and that the NO is a watered-down version of the liturgy. I will say so to anyone who asks me my opinion. That does not make me arrogant. People unfortunately don’t like to have others disagree with them. One must search for the truth in others’ statements rather than constantly searching for faults in the person making the statement.

That being said, EVERYONE has a moral obligation to be charitable during these debates. No one is going to be influenced by your posts when you are constantly sarcastic, degrading, arrogant, etc. They will simply stereotype you as one of those “traditional Catholics” or vice-versa. We must search for faults in our own posts and search for truth in others’…not the other way around. Even if we traditional Catholics are right, what good is it doing us if we can’t follow (to the best of our ability) Our Lord and His Mother’s example of supernatural charity?

:clapping: :clapping:

 

[brotherhrolf]

Sorry for rambling…So I guess my question is, what is it about the latin that y’all think is inherently superior to the vernicular?

Latin was the norm when I grew up. I knew what was going on the the Mass by 1956 before I made my First Communion. By the time I made my First Communion in second grade and got my first “little Missal” I didn’t need my Mamma to point out the English and the Latin. I was an altar boy at the end of third grade. I was confirmed in sixth (1963) and got my “big” Missal (St. Joseph’s). It’s not Latin per se. It is reverence.

If you see the daily Mass on EWTN, you see what I grew up with and what was the NORM when we went from the TLM to the NO. They are not doing anything different than what I experienced in my parish in 1970.

It’s not the Latin, it’s the reverence.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I couldn’t have said it better. Good Lord - I don’t want to return to the EF, but I do want to return to the reverence of the EF - to that which I knew which sadly is missing today in most parishes. At 56 I don’t want to hear people older than me talking about which hemorrhoid medicine is best before Mass. (Shut your mouths! You know better! You were raised better!), I don’t want to hear “Prepare Ye the Way of the Lord” from the 1970s Broadway musical Godspell as an appropriate Advent introit.

I don’t want to introduce myself to my neighbor as part of the entrance rite. I don’t want to hold hands at the Our Father nor do I want to do the “wave” at it’s end. I don’t want to shake hands and do the whole protestant thing at the sign of peace. In 1970 we turned to our neighbor and said “Peace be with you”. That’s it. Father didn’t leave the altar and come sailing down the main aisle.
It’s not NO vs EF. It’s adherence to the rubrics.

In short, I want to go back to being a Catholic. I am tired of driving 25 miles one way on Sunday. Forty years ago I could attend any Catholic church and the Mass was the Mass. I can’t say the same thing today.

thanks.

Am I crazy in thinking that this needs to be a combination “from the top” and “grassroots” effort?
BTW- have you ever read the “Order of the Mass” for the Anglican-Use Mass? They actually have the sign of peace between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Citing that we must forgive our neighbors (or something like that) before presenting our gifts. I think it is a wonderful idea!

 

[Cat]

Wondering if you go for all of that other baggage that comes with the NO crowd…like The Pill, Womens Ordination, holding hands during the our father, the banishing of the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the overemphasis of communing with others…etc…

If you don’t understand how offensive and spiteful this is, then I respectfully suggest that you are not getting anything out of your TLM.

I humbly suggest a re-reading of I Corinthians 13: 1-3.

As for the answer to your “query,” I heartily accept and follow the entire teachings of Holy Mother Church about artifical contraception.

I also heartily accept and follow the entire teachings of Holy Mother Church concerning women’s ordination. In fact, while we were still Protestant, we left a church when they hired a woman pastor; we knew even then that it is wrong for a woman to lead a church

I agree entirely with the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Probably the main reason I converted from evangelical Protestantism to Catholicism is that I recognized the entire teaching of the Bible in the Catholic Mass. Both the Old and New Testament, in their entirety, are summed up in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I accept the direction of our esteemed bishop, Thomas Doran, the Bishop of Rockford, when it comes to hand-holding during the Our Father. During our RCIA classes, we are taught that it is incorrect to hold hands or to raise the hands (as the priest does). My husband and I fold our hands and bow our heads during the Our Father. If anyone is offering their hands to us, we don’t see them. Only twice in the last four years has someone “forced” me to hold hands during the Our Father. I accepted this as the loving outreach of a Christian who is attempting to demonstrate Christian love, and I was not offended.

As for the “overemphasis of communing with others,” I don’t know what you are referring to. Pope Benedict XVI has recently released an excellent encyclical called Spe Salvi. My husband and I are using this for an advent devotional and are only about halfway through it, but we have found several places that deal with the importance of Christian community in the Catholic Church. I recommend the encyclical for a balanced viewpoint of Christians and community.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

If you don’t understand how offensive and spiteful this is, then I respectfully suggest that you are not getting anything out of your TLM.

I humbly suggest a re-reading of I Corinthians 13: 1-3.

As for the answer to your “query,” I heartily accept and follow the entire teachings of Holy Mother Church about artifical contraception.

I also heartily accept and follow the entire teachings of Holy Mother Church concerning women’s ordination. In fact, while we were still Protestant, we left a church when they hired a woman pastor; we knew even then that it is wrong for a woman to lead a church

I agree entirely with the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Probably the main reason I converted from evangelical Protestantism to Catholicism is that I recognized the entire teaching of the Bible in the Catholic Mass. Both the Old and New Testament, in their entirety, are summed up in the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

I accept the direction of our esteemed bishop, Thomas Doran, the Bishop of Rockford, when it comes to hand-holding during the Our Father. During our RCIA classes, we are taught that it is incorrect to hold hands or to raise the hands (as the priest does). My husband and I fold our hands and bow our heads during the Our Father. If anyone is offering their hands to us, we don’t see them. Only twice in the last four years has someone “forced” me to hold hands during the Our Father. I accepted this as the loving outreach of a Christian who is attempting to demonstrate Christian love, and I was not offended.

As for the “overemphasis of communing with others,” I don’t know what you are referring to. Pope Benedict XVI has recently released an excellent encyclical called Spe Salvi. My husband and I are using this for an advent devotional and are only about halfway through it, but we have found several places that deal with the importance of Christian community in the Catholic Church. I recommend the encyclical for a balanced viewpoint of Christians and community.

Look at you rockin out the encyclicals. Nice

 

[benedictgal]

As for the “overemphasis of communing with others,” I don’t know what you are referring to. Pope Benedict XVI has recently released an excellent encyclical called Spe Salvi. My husband and I are using this for an advent devotional and are only about halfway through it, but we have found several places that deal with the importance of Christian community in the Catholic Church. I recommend the encyclical for a balanced viewpoint of Christians and community.

Cat, Pope Benedict XVI is referring to the community in Spe Salvi in an entirely different context than what is being used when discussing the word in relation to the liturgy. If you were to read his pre-Papal writings on the subkject, you would be able to see the clear distinction. When we “overemhpassize” the community and make it more important than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, then, there are serious problems.

The community of believers, in and of itself, is important becuase we don’t worship in a vaccum. However, whne the community overrides the liturgy to the point that, especially in the hymns, the emphasis shifts from God to the assembly, then, as Pope Benedict writes ni Spirint of the Liturgy, we are “barking up the wrong tree.”

As I said, you need to make the distinction clear as to what the Holy Father is talking about in his latest encyclical and in his books and writings on liiturgy.

I apologize for any and all misspellings and typos. I am barely reovering from an eye infection and I can’t see the screen as clearly as I should. However, this subject was important enough for me to make some effort.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

I apologize for any and all misspellings and typos. I am barely reovering from an eye infection and I can’t see the screen as clearly as I should. However, this subject was important enough for me to make some effort.

Sorry bout your infection BG. I will pray for you.

 

[brotherhrolf]

thanks.

Am I crazy in thinking that this needs to be a combination “from the top” and “grassroots” effort?
BTW- have you ever read the “Order of the Mass” for the Anglican-Use Mass? They actually have the sign of peace between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Citing that we must forgive our neighbors (or something like that) before presenting our gifts. I think it is a wonderful idea!

From 1984 to 1992 my cathedral choir was pretty much forbidden to sing in Latin. The 1940 Episcopalian hymnal has some really good translations of chants, sequences, and other Latin hymns. And that is what we used.

Sing my tongue the Savior’s glory is not quite Pange Lingua G loriosi. Christians to the Paschal Victim is not quite Victimae Pascalae Laudes. In the final analysis it was like taking a shower with a rain coat. Don’t get me wrong, I love the English motets and anthems. Great stuff. But Latin is our heritage.

 

[Cat]

Cat;3096357:

I’m with the OP. I greatly prefer the NO. I doubt I would have ever become Catholic if the only experience I had was TLM. I think it’s weird and spooky. Sorry to all who consider it reverent and meaningful. I can’t help the way I feel.

I don’t like hearing a foreign language because it means nothing to me, even with a translation. I live in the U.S. and I like the English language…

…the two phrases above carry about as childish an intellectual quotient that I’ve seen on these boards…weird and spooky???

Time honored traditions you haven’t experienced generate fear in you? *Don’t like hearing a foreign language??? *The Bible was composed in Koine Greek, with subsequent translations into many languages…does it also mean nothing to you…

IrishBrigade, I’m afraid it’s so. Perhaps it’s because I have been part of U.S. “culture” for 50 years, and I have been heavily influenced, I’m sorry to say, by horror movies and television shows in which Gregorian chant and Latin (and other languages) are used to convey “spookiness.”

I’ve also been heavily influenced by my 40+ years as an evangelical Protestant. Although I was fortunate that none of my churches were virulently anti-Catholic, we were definitely taught to be suspicious of “ancient traditions.” It’s hard to shake so many years of teaching and experience.

It is a shame, I know, but as I said in my earlier post, I can’t help the way I feel. I just get the heebie-jeebies.

Don’t you have certain situations that creep you out? Darkness? Funeral homes? Hospitals? (I work in a hospital, and I know that some people can’t even force themselves to walk through the front door to see a loved one). Drills? (Dentist pain).

So please cut me some slack. I did make it very clear in my post that I fully support the TLM and firmly believe that ALL Catholics should have access to this Mass. I think it’s a shame that many Catholics have to drive long distances to attend a TLM.

In my city, we are fortunate that the TLM has been offered since the mid-1980s. The bishop back then established it, and the current bishop has continued to support the establishment of TLMs in our city and other cities.

I know several people who attend, and to be honest, they are kind of strange. But just recently, I met a childhood friend who has converted to Catholicism and attends the TLM, and she was very sweet and normal, and she helped me to conquer some of my heebie-jeebies about the TLM attendees. Thank the Lord for her.

And yes, you are right. Greek means nothing to me! I know two words of Greek: kyrie eleison. I am extremely grateful that other well-educated and gifted men and women have taken on the task over the centuries of translating the Bible into my language! God bless them! I would be lost without them.

I do know a little German–very little German! I’m just not very good with foreign languages. I can’t do rebuses either–I have never, ever solved a puzzle on “Wheel of Fortune,” even when all the letters except one are revealed! And I’m awful at things like Rubik’s Cube and other puzzles involving spatial comprehension. And I can’t read upside down.

So you’re probably right–there is an “intellectual childishness” here! But that’s OK–the Lord told us to come to Him like little children, and when it comes to high and mighty things, I am definitely a little child.

And I do have intellect in other areas. I’m not a total dolt. I’m happy with how the Lord created me.

 

[Greg72]

…[Anglican-Use parishes] actually have the sign of peace between the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Citing that we must forgive our neighbors (or something like that) before presenting our gifts. I think it is a wonderful idea!

So does the Pope. In “The Spirit of the Liturgy” he says that that’s where, ideally, it should be if it is to be done at all.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Yes. Really. Sunday obligation and all. If the only Mass you can make it to is illicit you still have to attend. That qualifies as forced.

Maybe a clown Mass isn’t the norm. But illicit Masses are the norm for many people here.

I’m not sure that you do get my point. Abuses in Mass are common. And they can and do damage the faith of the people who are forced ( yes - forced) to attend. These things are evil and they must be stopped.

Feel free to come to Columbus anytime. We’ll pick 10 or so parishes to visit. At most we are likely to see licit Masses in only one or 2.

And that has been my experience in Cleveland and Cincinnati as well. You have to look hard to find a priest who knows how to read the black and do the red.

I’m from Cleveland.

I’d love to come down to Columbus and we’ll visit some parishes.

I can’t wait to see what you think are things that make these masses “illicit”.

 

[Cat]

Cat, Pope Benedict XVI is referring to the community in Spe Salvi in an entirely different context than what is being used when discussing the word in relation to the liturgy. If you were to read his pre-Papal writings on the subkject, you would be able to see the clear distinction. When we “overemhpassize” the community and make it more important than the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass, then, there are serious problems.

The community of believers, in and of itself, is important becuase we don’t worship in a vaccum. However, whne the community overrides the liturgy to the point that, especially in the hymns, the emphasis shifts from God to the assembly, then, as Pope Benedict writes ni Spirint of the Liturgy, we are “barking up the wrong tree.”

As I said, you need to make the distinction clear as to what the Holy Father is talking about in his latest encyclical and in his books and writings on liiturgy.

I apologize for any and all misspellings and typos. I am barely reovering from an eye infection and I can’t see the screen as clearly as I should. However, this subject was important enough for me to make some effort.

I’m sorry to hear about your eye infection, benedictgal. I work in a microbiology lab, so my mind is filled with all kinds of possibilities about your poor eyes! I hope that you recover quickly. It’s not fun to be ill during Christmastime.

My point in responding toTHuringer was that I really have no idea what he is talking about when he asked me if supported the “overemphasis of communing with others.” I think he was making fun of me. I hope I’m wrong about him. I don’t like it when people make fun of me. It hurts. I am a convert to Catholicism from Protestantism, and I kind of expect Catholics to be nicer than Protestants. I guess they’re not always nice. Oh, well, neither am I.

I do what my bishop and priests teach me to do. I have been told by several posters on this Board, and I have read it in various articles, that my bishop, Thomas Doran, is one of the “good ones” in the U.S. I trust him and I accept him as one of the apostles of Jesus Christ.

The NO Masses in our diocese are reverent, licit, and relatively free of abuses. I have seen one incident of an “abuse” in my four years of being Catholic; one of the priests in our parish was adding the “O Sacrament Most Holy” prayer immediately after Communion. Apparently, word got to our bishop, and the priest stopped doing this after only a few weeks. I have been told by older Catholics that Bishop Doran does NOT put up with any abuses in the NO.

I am very blessed indeed.

 

[brotherhrolf]

Oh, Cat! How can things have come to such a disconnect? We are of an age and I saw those same movies you did. You mean those Hammer movies? I sat in the same movie theatres you did on Saturday afternoon. What you saw and heard as “spooky”…all of us Catholic kids saw as heroic. When the hero whips out the cross and uses Latin, we understood.

Oh the gift to see us, to see us as others see us. Oy! I listen to Gregorian Chant at work. I have studied using Gregorian chant. It would never occur to me to think of it as “spooky”. I hear chant and my heart and soul “still”.

It would never had occurred to me than anyone would find it “spooky”. Whoah! You have given me much to contemplate.

 

[edo]

No question for me, i prefer by far, the extraordinary form. The last straw for me, after have seen far too many abuses in the ordinary form, was when the choir sang ‘happy birthday to you’ to the priest, during mass. At the same mass, there were no fewer than 10 extraordinary ministers, dressed in revealing clothes and flip flops. There is no comparison in the manner of sacredness and respect for the Blessed Sacrament in the extraordinary form. It has been over a year now since I’ve attended the ordinary form, and I’m afraid it would be far too depressing for me to return to that form, unfortunately. Can’t help it…too many years of too many abuses. I could go on with the list, but why? To me it was a great day when the pope issued Summorum Pontificum.

 

[Michael_Francis]

Thread temporarily closed pending moderator review.
MF

 

[Jean_Anthony]

I am reopening this thread, but please remember that no rite of the Church is to be denigrated. Thank you, all.

 

[Cat]

brotherholf, I appreciate the kind tone in your post.

Here’s the deal. We’re all different. We can’t help the way we are and think and feel. Much has gone into our formation. We can try to be someone that we are not, but it doesn’t work. If someone gets the heebie jeebies listening to chant, it won’t work to pretend that it’s beautiful and spiritual.

Some people believe that rock music is extremely reverent and worthy of the Lord. Others can’t even begin to comprehend this. Having been raised with rock music in the Protestant church, I very much appreciate a really good rock piece and believe with all my heart that this music is acceptable and a “sweet fragrance” to the Lord as much as is classical or chant or any kind of music. I don’t personally like rock music very much, but I appreciate that others like it.

Even though I can’t really appreciate the more ancient practices of the Catholic Church in a personal way, I can certainly respect and appreciate them for others.

 

[GandalfTheWhite]

Pride is an easy thing for anyone to fall into. Many traditional Catholics are so upset by the constant irreverence and watered-down version of Catholicism that is being forced down our throats. Many people are just so passionate on this subject that they often come across as arrogant. I have struggled with pride during debates. It’s possibly the easiest sin to commit. That doesn’t excuse posters who are arrogant, but it doesn’t make what they say wrong.

However, so many people on this forum are so ready to cry out the classic lines: “you think you’re better than I am!” and “stop judging me! I’m not less Catholic than you!” I believe that the TLM is better and that the NO is a watered-down version of the liturgy. I will say so to anyone who asks me my opinion. That does not make me arrogant. People unfortunately don’t like to have others disagree with them. One must search for the truth in others’ statements rather than constantly searching for faults in the person making the statement.

That being said, EVERYONE has a moral obligation to be charitable during these debates. No one is going to be influenced by your posts when you are constantly sarcastic, degrading, arrogant, etc. They will simply stereotype you as one of those “traditional Catholics” or vice-versa. We must search for faults in our own posts and search for truth in others’…not the other way around. Even if we traditional Catholics are right, what good is it doing us if we can’t follow (to the best of our ability) Our Lord and His Mother’s example of supernatural charity?

I agree with you on almost everything, especially the first paragraph! I think you said it very well and depicted what I often struggle with. The evil one wants to take every opirtunity he can get to strike at us.

 

[brotherhrolf]

brotherholf, I appreciate the kind tone in your post.

Here’s the deal. We’re all different. We can’t help the way we are and think and feel. Much has gone into our formation. We can try to be someone that we are not, but it doesn’t work. If someone gets the heebie jeebies listening to chant, it won’t work to pretend that it’s beautiful and spiritual.

Some people believe that rock music is extremely reverent and worthy of the Lord. Others can’t even begin to comprehend this. Having been raised with rock music in the Protestant church, I very much appreciate a really good rock piece and believe with all my heart that this music is acceptable and a “sweet fragrance” to the Lord as much as is classical or chant or any kind of music. I don’t personally like rock music very much, but I appreciate that others like it.

Even though I can’t really appreciate the more ancient practices of the Catholic Church in a personal way, I can certainly respect and appreciate them for others.

Dear Cat: I certainly understand your feelings but as much as chant gives you the “heebie jeebies” - so too does rock music affect me. I get put into the very awkward position of some kind of liturgical superiority since I can remember when chant got thrown out and Simon and Garfunkle came in. You will remember that Simon and Garfunkle were in the Top 40 back in the late 60s.

Some may remember Paul Simon (I mean, hey, he turned me on to Andean Music and then to Ladysmith Black Mambazo). (Honestly only because DW listened to him when we were first married) *. But realistically, how many 18 year olds today know who Simon and Garfunkle are.

For better or worse, I have seen/heard the whole thing from 1968 until today. I do not like the position into which I am pushed.

On the one hand, I grew up Catholic before Vatican II. Latin is absolutely normal to me as is chant. Not to mention all the Masses/sacred motets by Palestrina, Monteverdi, Vivaldi, Mozart, Haydn, Bruckner et al up to the present day. You will disagree with me, but I simply cannot put these composers in the same category as a Protestant “rock” composer.

So I get placed into the very unenvieable position of having to say, “OK, Cat, your protestant rock anthems are OK because that is what you grew up with before becoming a Catholic and denying my own heritage as being outre and giving you the heebie-jeebies”

I’m sorry. There is a huge disconnect here. Cat, I am more than aware that what I say may be offensive to you. I don’t want to go there… On the other hand, I was born and baptized into the Roman Catholic Church in 1951. I made my First Holy Communion in 1958. I was confirmed in 1963. Did the altar boy thing for years. Do you want to take my heritage away from me, Cat? That is what it comes down to. I am placed in the insane position of acquiseing to you in deference to your conversion or throwing out my heritage.*