I enjoy the Novus Ordo Mass ...

[ljprevo]

I am 34 and just learned within the last few years there was a totally different mass.

My grandmother always complained “Before Vatican II, before Vatican II”

I was like, what is wrong with her

Well, I meet my wife a few years ago and she attended Assumption Grotto in Detroit. They had a Latin NO mass which I grew to love it, deeply, the latin, the chanting, the bells and smells, tied into the NO mass that I have grown up with, how wonderful!

Well as soon as the TLM was allowed Assumption Grotto went right to that mass for their 9:30am mass, which used to be the Latin NO mass.

I am in the chior, so we sing the 9:30am mass.

Honestly, it is not that I don’t like the TLM mass, but I lose my place at times, it is getting better, but at this point I prefer the Latin NO mass we had at Assumption Grotto. I am doing my best to get up to speed with the TLM, but what people need to understand is there is a HUGE generation that grew up on strictly NO and changing that up on them can be a tad difficult. It was and still is a tad for myself and I am a very dedicated Catholic.

There should be no cut down of either mass, they are both special in their own ways.

 

[pippin]

I also prefer the NO. I guess I am fortunate to have a pastor who sticks to the GIRM. I haven’t seen any of the abuses mentioned in thes forums since my return to the Church. .

 

[James0235]

Abuses are horrible, and much too widespread, but the Ordinary Form is the Mass just as much as the Extraordinary Form!

In general you are correct. But I think we need to qualify your statement just a little. Look at the example Ken gave of the OF Mass he is sometimes forced to attend:

kleary:

I attend the OF Mass only when I cannot get to the EF. I abhore it. My wife always tells me not to complain about “The Captain and Tennile” up there with their guitars, priest not wearing proper vestments, using wine glass instead of chalice- holding hands with the altar girl, clown masses, pizza consecration masses, halloween masses where priest dresses as Satan…I can go on and on.

I think that given that description it would be very difficult to say that that Mass is just as much the Mass as the Extraordinary Form. Sure, a consecration may take place. But, God is being mocked, dishonored, and insulted at the same time.

It would be better to say that in general the Ordinary Form is the Mass just as much as the Extraordinary Form but in far too many cases the Ordinary Form is not just as much the Mass as the Extraordinary Form, rather it is “a real falsification of Catholic liturgy” (see Redemptionis Sacramentum 169).

James

 

[Ignatius]

I’ve been crawling about these forums for a few months and eventually signed up a little while ago.

Now, i’ll set the scene … I’m 21 years old so of course I wasn’t around before Vatican II. I have experienced the Trinidine Mass a number of times and on all occasions I felt I prefer the Novus Ordo Mass.

I enjoy my modern Catholic Church. I feel spiritually fulfilled whilst praying before our Blessed Lord present in the tabernacle. I enjoy the folk Mass every other Saturday evening Vigil, I like the Modern Gothic Chasuble and I don’t mind receiving our Blessed Lord from a EMHC.

I feel like i’m out of place within these forums. .

Why, there’s only one Traditional Catholic sub-forum forum? The only dispute here is that some who would prefer the Extraorinary form of the Mass are, and have been for many years, denied the right to attend it. No one has ever denied the right to attend NO, so it is a moot point. If the Latin Mass was available to those who desire it, the whole issue would evaporate.

I simply don’t understand why certain Bishops obstinately deny TLM in direct contradition to the express direction of the Holy See. Those who deny the Tridentine mass to those who want it are the ones causing the problem.

 

[ac_claire]

In general you are correct. But I think we need to qualify your statement just a little. Look at the example Ken gave of the OF Mass he is sometimes forced to attend:
I attend the OF Mass only when I cannot get to the EF. I abhore it. My wife always tells me not to complain about “The Captain and Tennile” up there with their guitars, priest not wearing proper vestments, using wine glass instead of chalice- holding hands with the altar girl, clown masses, pizza consecration masses, halloween masses where priest dresses as Satan…I can go on and on.

First of all: …“forced to atttend”…? Really?

I think that these abuses-- as described here-- are the exception, not the rule. Most NO masses are not clown shows, sorry. I’ve never seen a priest dressed up like satan, but I guess I’ll take your word for it.

Seriously, I do get your point, and I’m not denying what you or ken, personally, have experienced…But there is definitely some exaggeration of the “horrriffic” conditions of NO masses on this forum.

At least, that’s my strong impression after a few weeks here…

 

[THurifer2]

I’m with the OP. I greatly prefer the NO. I doubt I would have ever become Catholic if the only experience I had was TLM. I think it’s weird and spooky. Sorry to all who consider it reverent and meaningful. I can’t help the way I feel.

I don’t like hearing a foreign language because it means nothing to me, even with a translation. I live in the U.S. and I like the English language.

And I happen to like more contemporary hymns with beautiful flowing melodies, and poetic words that deal with modern thought and issues. I dislike chant because it is amelodic and kind of wanders all over the place with no order. As for organ music, well, there are only about a dozen organists left in the world and I don’t know a single organ student in our whole city. (I’m a classical pianist who is very involved with our local music club, the oldest music club in the U.S.) So unless someone is keeping a clone room full of organists, once the organists are gone, I guess that will end the organ music for everyone.

Seriously, I really prefer the NO. I would attend TLM only if it was the only option, and even then, I would probably be willing to drive a long distance to attend NO.

However, I do support the establishment of TLM in every community. I think it should be available to all Catholics. And I think the Catholic Church should strive to keep up the traditions of the church, including ancient liturgy, prayers, and music. It is part of our history.

Wondering if you go for all of that other baggage that comes with the NO crowd…like The Pill, Womens Ordination, holding hands during the our father, the banishing of the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the overemphasis of communing with others…etc…

 

[Neil_Anthony]

I attend the OF Mass only when I cannot get to the EF. I abhore it. My wife always tells me not to complain about “The Captain and Tennile” up there with their guitars, priest not wearing proper vestments, using wine glass instead of chalice- holding hands with the altar girl, clown masses, pizza consecration masses, halloween masses where priest dresses as Satan…I can go on and on.

What planet do you live on? Things must be different there. I’ve only ever been to Novus Ordo masses and never once have I seen such things, and I’ve been to many different parishes when travelling.

 

[JDHallKY]

Wondering if you go for all of that other baggage that comes with the NO crowd…like The Pill, Womens Ordination, holding hands during the our father, the banishing of the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the overemphasis of communing with others…etc…

I sure hope this post is meant to be a joke.

You aren’t seriously saying that attending the Ordinary Form means someone is obviously in rebellion against the Church that gave us the Ordinary Form, are you?

 

[James0235]

First of all: …“forced to atttend”…? Really?

Yes. Really. Sunday obligation and all. If the only Mass you can make it to is illicit you still have to attend. That qualifies as forced.
ac claire:

I think that these abuses-- as described here-- are the exception, not the rule. Most NO masses are not clown shows, sorry. I’ve never seen a priest dressed up like satan, but I guess I’ll take your word for it.

Maybe a clown Mass isn’t the norm. But illicit Masses are the norm for many people here.
ac claire:

Seriously, I do get your point, and I’m not denying what you or ken, personally, have experienced…But there is definitely some exaggeration of the “horrriffic” conditions of NO masses on this forum.

At least, that’s my strong impression after a few weeks here…

I’m not sure that you do get my point. Abuses in Mass are common. And they can and do damage the faith of the people who are forced ( yes - forced) to attend. These things are evil and they must be stopped.

Feel free to come to Columbus anytime. We’ll pick 10 or so parishes to visit. At most we are likely to see licit Masses in only one or 2.

And that has been my experience in Cleveland and Cincinnati as well. You have to look hard to find a priest who knows how to read the black and do the red.

 

[THurifer2]

I sure hope this post is meant to be a joke.

You aren’t seriously saying that attending the Ordinary Form means someone is obviously in rebellion against the Church that gave us the Ordinary Form, are you?

Nope, but if you took a roomfull of people who do rebell in those practices you can bet the bank they are not EF Catholics.

 

[agapewolf]

Wondering if you go for all of that other baggage that comes with the NO crowd…like The Pill, Womens Ordination, holding hands during the our father, the banishing of the sacrificial nature of the Mass, the overemphasis of communing with others…etc…

I am extremely offended by this remark.

no baggage “comes with” the N.O. “crowd”.

and holding hands during the “Our Father” is a far reach from accepting ABC.

 

[THurifer2]

I am extremely offended by this remark.

no baggage “comes with” the N.O. “crowd”.

and holding hands during the “Our Father” is a far reach from accepting ABC.

Wow I am sorry for extremely offending you.

Hypothetically now. if you put a roomfull of 1000 Catholics who practiced ABC what percentage of them would you GUESS attended the N.O. vs. what percentage of them attended the EF?

 

[Nechasin]

Wow I am sorry for extremely offending you.

Hypothetically now. if you put a roomfull of 1000 Catholics who practiced ABC what percentage of them would you GUESS attended the N.O. vs. what percentage of them attended the EF?

Maybe, Just Maybe if the people that drive past 3 NO churches to go to an EF Mass would work from within their parish to change the Church, things would be better. Don’t we always criticize Martin Luther for going outside the Church and not working for change from within.

If only the EF were offered…do you really think that would fix all the problems? I guarantee that the percentage of Catholics that accept ABC would go down. Just not the way we want it to. We need to step up and be examples of what is required of us. Not to go hide with all of the other like minded folks.

 

[LighthouseRon]

I’ve been crawling about these forums for a few months and eventually signed up a little while ago. One thing I’ve noticed whilst browsing the forums is a constant “bashing” of the Novus Ordo Mass.

Now, i’ll set the scene … I’m 21 years old so of course I wasn’t around before Vatican II. I have experienced the Trinidine Mass a number of times and on all occasions I felt I prefer the Novus Ordo Mass.

I enjoy my modern Catholic Church. I feel spiritually fulfilled whilst praying before our Blessed Lord present in the tabernacle. I enjoy the folk Mass every other Saturday evening Vigil, I like the Modern Gothic Chasuble and I don’t mind receiving our Blessed Lord from a EMHC.

I feel like i’m out of place within these forums. Do you believe I am wrong to feel this way in regard to the Mass? Should I not feel a love for the Lord whilst participating in the “Modern” Mass? Please Advise

God Bless.

Like the OP, I have feelings like this. The constant bashing of the NO mass has made me feel very out of place here. I have no doubt there are abuses and such at some NO masses. At my own parish there were a few until our current pastor arrived. They have been corrected over time and now things are in line with the GIRM. Attendance is down and our pastor isn’t the most popular one we’ve had. My point is that our NO mass is proper to the best of our pastor’s knowledge and ability and from what I see, it is completely in line with the GIRM. I love our NO mass. That being said, I feel pretty unwelcome here at times. I used to post here from time to time but decided after a while that many here don’t want to hear my opinion and think just because it’s the NO mass, it’s wrong. Yes, we have guitars at our vigil mass every Saturday but many things we do are very traditional, and let me tell you that’s not easy on guitar. And we work very hard to make sure the modern music is proper for mass. We do it out of obedience and love for the NO mass. I get really tired of all the bashing of the NO even though we work hard to celebrate it correctly, and there are many parishes that do the same.

Thanks for letting me vent. I probably won’t post again…

 

[THurifer2]

. Don’t we always criticize Martin Luther for going outside the Church and not working for change from within.

.

I am going to give you the benefit of the doubt and hope you were not implying that those who attended the EF are outside the CHurch.

With that in mind are you implying that those who prefer the EF should join N.O. parishes or remain in N.O. Parish to change it into a EF parish?

 

[Guitar]

Wow I am sorry for extremely offending you.

Hypothetically now. if you put a roomfull of 1000 Catholics who practiced ABC what percentage of them would you GUESS attended the N.O. vs. what percentage of them attended the EF?

You don’t sound very sorry at all, young man.

Never been to a TLM in my life. Completely accepting of the Church’s teaching on the ordination of women. Married 21 years, celibate prior to marriage, used NFP from the wedding day, have never either used or even thought about using ABC. I refuse to hold hands with anybody. Raised and trained by a very orthodox Catholic who was fluent in Latin and who very much emphasised the sacrificial nature of the Mass. Great fan of chant and traditional music. Etc, etc.

I reckon your remark to Cat is offensive, too.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

Please remember that no rite of the Church is to be denigrated on the board, no matter what forum in which one is posting. And please keep the tone civil, everyone.

 

[brotherhrolf]

And who speaks for my generation? Who speaks for those of us who grew up with the Mass in Latin; who grew up with Gregorian chant; who grew up with sacred motets; and who grew up with a whole bunch of Catholic hymns that I haven’t heard in years? Was that not natural for us? Who speaks for us who submitted to the Magesterium of HMC back in 1969 and have close to forty years of seeing what has gone on since?

Contrary to popular belief, the switch to the NO was greeted with one heckuva lotta shock back then. I keep reading that the folk Masses are on Saturday and are some isolated phenomena.

amazon.com/Sounds-Silence-Simon-Garfunkel/dp/B00005NKKV/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1198024750&sr=1-1

Listen to track one.

amazon.com/Bridge-Troubled-Water-Simon-Garfunkel/dp/B00005NKKZ/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=music&qid=1198024849&sr=1-1

Listen to track one.

Beautiful soaring melodic lines and poetry. These were sung at my high school graduation Mass from a Catholic boys high school in May of 1969. But what do they have to do with the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass? In one year we went from Tantum Ergo to this…one year.

I attend a reverent NO parish. I have sung in the choir for the last 24 years. I drive 25 miles and have for the last 24 years. Can’t you see that what many of you accept as routinely “normal” may not, in fact, be normal to a sizeable amount of Catholics who grew up before and during Vatican II?

We submitted to the Magesterium of HMC back then. What all of you are seeing as “bashing” is nothing more than the recoil from the enormity of what was done 40 years ago. Believe it or not, I am not interested in going back to the Mass I knew as a kid. But I do believe we can and should carry the tradtions and Traditions we knew before Vatican II. I join with my younger brothers and sisters - this is not about the Mass in Latin. It is about recovering our heritage.

 

[benedictgal]

Like the OP, I have feelings like this. The constant bashing of the NO mass has made me feel very out of place here. I have no doubt there are abuses and such at some NO masses. At my own parish there were a few until our current pastor arrived. They have been corrected over time and now things are in line with the GIRM. Attendance is down and our pastor isn’t the most popular one we’ve had. My point is that our NO mass is proper to the best of our pastor’s knowledge and ability and from what I see, it is completely in line with the GIRM. I love our NO mass. That being said, I feel pretty unwelcome here at times. I used to post here from time to time but decided after a while that many here don’t want to hear my opinion and think just because it’s the NO mass, it’s wrong. Yes, we have guitars at our vigil mass every Saturday but many things we do are very traditional, and let me tell you that’s not easy on guitar. And we work very hard to make sure the modern music is proper for mass. We do it out of obedience and love for the NO mass. I get really tired of all the bashing of the NO even though we work hard to celebrate it correctly, and there are many parishes that do the same.

Thanks for letting me vent. I probably won’t post again…

Ron, I can’t help how you feel. I can only present to you my experiences. Inasmuch as you seem to have a good experience with the NO, as does the OP, there are many of us who must suffer through the abuses. I will say to you what I said in another post and in another thread.

If the NO were truly celebrated according to the GIRM throughout the Church, why would the Holy See have to issue a document like Redemptionis Sacramentum? If the NO used music that was worthy of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass and in continuance of her 2,000 year tradition of Sacred Music, why would the Church’s chief liturgical steward, Pope Benedict XVi write three books on the subject, heavily concentrating on the lack of Sacred music and make pronouncements in Sacramentum Caritatis to the point that he writes that “one song is not as good as another” when it comes to the Mass? If the NO was celebrated under the correct and proper norms and rubrics, why did the late Pope John Paul II convene a Synod on the Eucharist in 2005, wherein the Synod Fathers discussed shadows that have obscured the liturgy, including the excessive use of EHMC’s, the problems with Youth Masses and other deficiencies that needed to be cleared?

These are serious questions with very paintul answers. What Pope Benedict XVI has done is to lift the veil out of the 40 years of the so-called Spirit of Vatican II and uncover what the Mass is supposed to be like. In his book “A New Song for the Lord”, he writes that the Mass had become a fresco that had been covered with white-wash and now has to be painstakingly restored to its original beauty. He is leading by example. Unfortunately, not many NO parishes are willing to follow Peter’s lead.

Catholics have the right to have the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass celebrated according to the norms and rubrics demanded by the Church. When abuses happen, when sub-par music that celebrates the Community rather than offers adoration to God is used, when creativity takes precedence over the rubrics and norms, then our right to the Mass (celebrated as the Church decrees it to be celebrated) is trumped.

I would challenge you to read the working instrument that the Synod Fathers used for the 2005 Synod of the Eucharist and then match it up with Sacramentum Caritatis. You can find this in the Adoremus website: www.adoremus.org . They also have Redemptionis Sacramentum, along with writings from the former Cardinal Ratzinger as well as Francis Cardinal Arinze, the Prefect for the Congregation on Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments. The documents call attention to some very real issues that concern the Church. The Holy Sacrifice of the Mass is the most important act that we do as the Church. It is our supreme act of worship. Something this sacred needs careful attention and its integrity must be protected.

 

[bpbasilphx]

**But please realize that for many people these things do not help but actually hurt their faith. **

James, be precise here:

Do these practices actually hurt their FAITH (leading them to reject the Resurrection and Hypostatic Union and other dogmas)–or does it merely offend their sense of proprieties and they simply don’t like them?