I feel like I'm in enemy territory (BYU)

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Tundramom, is having ordinary tea, such as Japanese style hot green tea, or ice tea, really forbidden in the Mormon religion? Do I read this correctly? Because tea is really healthy, it has the antioxidant polyphenols component, and the same can be said of coffee. Actually, it is beneficial to the health to drink coffee or tea, and especially tea. Also, while I see that alcohol has destroyed many lives, drinking alcohol in moderation is a different issue. It is really, truly a good thing to drink small amounts of wine regularly. The Old Testament never forbade it; Jesus drank wine at the Last Supper; the Apostle Paul told in one of his letters in the New Testament, to one of his disciples, to drink a little wine because of his poor health. And in modern science, we know a lot about why wine is healthy, it’s partly because of the chemical components named antocyanins and flavonoids. What I’m trying to get at, is the Church of LDS rejecting the teachings of the Old and New Testaments, and secular-scientific medical evidence, in these cases?

Ave Maria University - Yes, it seems AMU tries to be truly Catholic. It’s a tragedy, in my opinion, that other Catholic universities have lost their Catholic identity and even have faculty members who revel in dissenting just about everything, including abortion, birth control, and the LGBT agenda. I remember reading an article about how Boston College recently decided to put back the crucifixes into classrooms, and a chemistry professor, head of the Department of Chemistry, felt offended. We have gotten to the point that faculty members are offended by the crucifix, at a Catholic college!
 
It all stems from what is termed their “Word of Wisdom”. It is in one of their scriptures called the Doctrine and Covenants, section 89.

from www.scriptures.lds.org

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
SECTION 89
Revelation given through Joseph Smith the Prophet, at Kirtland, Ohio, February 27, 1833. HC 1: 327–329. As a consequence of the early brethren using tobacco in their meetings, the Prophet was led to ponder upon the matter; consequently he inquired of the Lord concerning it. This revelation, known as the Word of Wisdom, was the result. The first three verses were originally written as an inspired introduction and description by the Prophet.
1–9, Use of wine, strong drinks, tobacco, and hot drinks proscribed; 10–17, Herbs, fruits, flesh, and grain are ordained for the use of man and of animals; 18–21, Obedience to gospel law, including the Word of Wisdom, brings temporal and spiritual blessings.
1 A Word OF Wisdom, for the benefit of the council of high priests, assembled in Kirtland, and the church, and also the saints in Zion—
2 To be sent greeting; not by commandment or constraint, but by revelation and the word of wisdom, showing forth the order and will of God in the temporal salvation of all saints in the last days—
3 Given for a principle with promise, adapted to the capacity of the weak and the weakest of all saints, who are or can be called saints.
4 Behold, verily, thus saith the Lord unto you: In consequence of evils and designs which do and will exist in the hearts of conspiring men in the last days, I have warned you, and forewarn you, by giving unto you this word of wisdom by revelation—
5 That inasmuch as any man drinketh wine or strong drink among you, behold it is not good, neither meet in the sight of your Father, only in assembling yourselves together to offer up your sacraments before him.
6 And, behold, this should be wine, yea, pure wine of the grape of the vine, of your own make.
7 And, again, strong drinks are not for the belly, but for the washing of your bodies.
8 And again, tobacco is not for the abody, neither for the belly, and is not good for man, but is an herb for bruises and all sick cattle, to be used with judgment and skill.
9 And again, hot drinks are not for the body or belly.
10 And again, verily I say unto you, all wholesome herbs God hath ordained for the constitution, nature, and use of man—
11 Every herb in the season thereof, and every fruit in the season thereof; all these to be used with prudence and thanksgiving.
12 Yea, flesh also of beasts and of the fowls of the air, I, the Lord, have ordained for the use of man with thanksgiving; nevertheless they are to be used sparingly;
13 And it is pleasing unto me that they should not be used, only in times of winter, or of cold, or famine.
14 All agrain is ordained for the use of man and of beasts, to be the staff of life, not only for man but for the beasts of the field, and the fowls of heaven, and all wild animals that run or creep on the earth;
15 And these hath God made for the use of man only in times of famine and excess of hunger.
16 All grain is good for the food of man; as also the fruit of the vine; that which yieldeth fruit, whether in the ground or above the ground—
17 Nevertheless, wheat for man, and corn for the ox, and oats for the horse, and rye for the fowls and for swine, and for all beasts of the field, and barley for all useful animals, and for mild drinks, as also other grain.
18 And all saints who remember to keep and do these sayings, walking in obedience to the commandments, shall receive health in their navel and marrow to their bones;
19 And shall find wisdom and great treasures of knowledge, even hidden treasures;
20 And shall arun and not be weary, and shall walk and not faint.
21 And I, the Lord, give unto them a promise, that the adestroying angel shall pass by them, as the children of Israel, and not slay them. Amen.

I agree with you about Catholic Universities being too secular. That’s why my daughters and I are looking into AMU. 😉

Steph
 
tundramom said:
I’m glad to see that you do admit this happens. As you can see by whyme’s response to this thread, I’ve been told time and time again that this sort of thing NEVER happens. Don’t worry, I’m not offended by it at all.

Steph
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Ok, what do you mean by 'this sort of thing?"

A clearer definition would be in order. Do our missionaries get excited about going out to teach our beliefs and convert other people? Sure…but I don’t think anybody has claimed that THIS does not happen. I would hope that all evangelicals feel the same way about their own faiths, else they should find a faith they CAN feel that way about.

So, exactly what is it that we (and I use ‘we’ advisedly, because I’m not sure who you are talking about ) say 'never happens?"
 
dianaiad said:
Ok, what do you mean by 'this sort of thing?"

A clearer definition would be in order. Do our missionaries get excited about going out to teach our beliefs and convert other people? Sure…but I don’t think anybody has claimed that THIS does not happen. I would hope that all evangelicals feel the same way about their own faiths, else they should find a faith they CAN feel that way about.

So, exactly what is it that we (and I use ‘we’ advisedly, because I’m not sure who you are talking about ) say 'never happens?"
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Oh c’mon Diana. Teaching the Catholics “the error of our ways”?
Read whyme’s post. Although he/she has been silent since, you can see that he obviously calls into question that this didn’t happen. Mormons on this board (can’t recall exactly if you have said this or not, oh wait… you did in your first post on this thread.) would have you believe that they do not talk about other religions. That they only talk about THEIR religion and that it is all done with the utmost respect for other’s beliefs.

NOT TRUE!

Steph
 
Joseph_L_Varga said:
I had to look up MTC and BYU on google. 😊 That will probably tell anyone I’m not exactly familiar with the Church of LDS, but I’m proud I already knew what LDS stood for!

Surfing the BYU website, I was most surprised about the Honor Code. Are beards, coffee, and tea really forbidden for Mormons? Because wikipedia sports a picture of Mr. Brigham Young, and he sports a beard. Also, is there absolute ban on alcohol - is a moderate consumption of wine or beer forbidden? I have to tell though, apart from the bans on the mentioned items, that honor code made a lot of sense to me, and I liked it a lot. It looks like the Mormons take seriously such things as a decent and modest appearance, at a time when even in our Catholic Church, one often sees people attending church service in scandalous attire. I wish our Catholic Universities had a similar Honor Code, except of course for the absolute ban on tea, coffee, and alcohol, and the beard issue. And all the rest - requirement of chastity, honesty, so clearly spelled out in the Honor Code - I like it! Can you imagine, folks, a Catholic University actually insisting that students, faculty, and staff live a chaste lifestyle, attend church regularly, and not subscribe to the LGBT agenda, like BYU insists on those things?
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Yes, they are forbidden. The beards are forbidden because, unlike the nineteenth century when beards were common and considered to be conservative–and the rebellion was to shave–today’s culture is the other way around; conservative (that’s cultural, not political!) practice is to be clean shaven, and rebellion = beards. That seems to be settling down some, so I imagine that someday beards might well be acceptable. Maybe. (shrug)

As to coffee, tea, alchohol and tobacco…yeah. They are forbidden. We, as Mormons, don’t imbibe in any of those. Period. 😉

yep, that’s right; we don’t smoke. We don’t drink. We don’t drink coffee or tea (well, we aren’t SUPPOSED to, let’s put it that way…and doing so will keep you out of the Temple).

By the way, the name of the church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” If you need to shorten it, try TCJCoLDS, or “LDS church.” I know, “LDS Church” and “the Church of the LDS” look like they SHOULD mean the same thing, but custom has shown that they don’t, quite.

“LDS Church” means “the church that Latter-day Saints” go to. Expanding that to “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” is an ‘unpacking’ of the abreviation. Those of us who belong to the CoJCoLDS are “Latter-day Saints.” That’s what we call ourselves. You can also call us “Mormon,” though there are quite a few Mormon sects that are not LDS. We’re just the biggest group.

“The Church of the LDS,” on the other hand, is an appellation used almost entirely by anti-Mormons; it has come to mean “we don’t want to allow you to put Jesus Christ anywhere because it’s not HIS church” It’s a subtle, but very real, insult, bypassing His Name and making it all about the members. Going from that to 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" 'feels like" to the antis and the LDS alike, a different name. To the antis who use it knowing how we feel about Jesus Christ and where He stands in our faith, it is a deliberate and not all that subtle insult. To us, it’s a red flag…here is someone whose agenda has nothing of ‘open mindedness’ about it.

You are using it, I believe, in all innocence, which is why I’m letting you know about it; blame the English language! It’s all the fault of the English language anyway, right? 😉
 
tundramom said:
Oh c’mon Diana. Teaching the Catholics “the error of our ways”?
Read whyme’s post. Although he/she has been silent since, you can see that he obviously calls into question that this didn’t happen. Mormons on this board (can’t recall exactly if you have said this or not, oh wait… you did in your first post on this thread.) would have you believe that they do not talk about other religions. That they only talk about THEIR religion and that it is all done with the utmost respect for other’s beliefs.

NOT TRUE!

Steph
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Steph, we are a highly evangelical people. We send missionaries out all the time. We teach OUR faith to everybody…and those who convert can certainly be said to have 'seen the error of their ways."

So you are going to have to be considerably more specific here. There is a HUGE difference between teaching one’s own faith and, for instance, publishing and distributing books and pamphlets specifically aimed at a target belief system in order to discredit or destroy it, to show them how wrong they are.

THAT…we don’t do.

You guys do, though.

Big time.
 
dianaiad said:
Yes, they are forbidden. The beards are forbidden because, unlike the nineteenth century when beards were common and considered to be conservative–and the rebellion was to shave–today’s culture is the other way around; conservative (that’s cultural, not political!) practice is to be clean shaven, and rebellion = beards. That seems to be settling down some, so I imagine that someday beards might well be acceptable. Maybe. (shrug)

As to coffee, tea, alchohol and tobacco…yeah. They are forbidden. We, as Mormons, don’t imbibe in any of those. Period. 😉

yep, that’s right; we don’t smoke. We don’t drink. We don’t drink coffee or tea (well, we aren’t SUPPOSED to, let’s put it that way…and doing so will keep you out of the Temple).

By the way, the name of the church is “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.” If you need to shorten it, try TCJCoLDS, or “LDS church.” I know, “LDS Church” and “the Church of the LDS” look like they SHOULD mean the same thing, but custom has shown that they don’t, quite.

“LDS Church” means “the church that Latter-day Saints” go to. Expanding that to “The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” is an ‘unpacking’ of the abreviation. Those of us who belong to the CoJCoLDS are “Latter-day Saints.” That’s what we call ourselves. You can also call us “Mormon,” though there are quite a few Mormon sects that are not LDS. We’re just the biggest group.

“The Church of the LDS,” on the other hand, is an appellation used almost entirely by anti-Mormons; it has come to mean “we don’t want to allow you to put Jesus Christ anywhere because it’s not HIS church” It’s a subtle, but very real, insult, bypassing His Name and making it all about the members. Going from that to 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" 'feels like" to the antis and the LDS alike, a different name. To the antis who use it knowing how we feel about Jesus Christ and where He stands in our faith, it is a deliberate and not all that subtle insult. To us, it’s a red flag…here is someone whose agenda has nothing of ‘open mindedness’ about it.

You are using it, I believe, in all innocence, which is why I’m letting you know about it; blame the English language! It’s all the fault of the English language anyway, right? 😉
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We are not called to be open-minded about false prophets and Churches that do not follow the True God
 
dianaiad said:
Steph, we are a highly evangelical people. We send missionaries out all the time. We teach OUR faith to everybody…and those who convert can certainly be said to have 'seen the error of their ways."

And those whom God leads out can also be said to have seen the error of our ways

So you are going to have to be considerably more specific here. There is a HUGE difference between teaching one’s own faith and, for instance, publishing and distributing books and pamphlets specifically aimed at a target belief system in order to discredit or destroy it, to show them how wrong they are.

We are called to expose false prophets and false doctrines, such as the lds have

THAT…we don’t do.

You guys do, though.

Yes, we expose false doctrines.

Big time.
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As we are called to do. Big Time
 
Joseph_L_Varga said:
Thanks for the explanation!
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It was nice of her to post those verses!

However, the reason we specifically avoid coffee, tea, alchohol and tobacco is a little more complicated than that. You’ll notice that the Word of Wisdom says that it was health advice, not a commandment, right?

Well, it was health advice.

However, after Joseph Smith was murderered, the church was in an upheaval and Brigham Young was attempting to get everybody ready to go west to the Utah territory, everybody was discouraged and despairing.

WE believe it was inspired…you can call it whatever you want to…but BY came up with this idea; we needed something, some symbol that others could see that would separate us and make us a different…a “peculiar” people. WE do things differently.

So, ‘hot drinks’ was identified as coffee and tea (from the tea plant…herbal teas are fine.). Alchohol and tobacco in all its forms were also identified as the parts of the Word of Wisdom that were most publically consumed; things that had to be ‘gone and got.’ Things that we had to procure from non-Mormons and the 'outside world."

So…we made a covenant with God–we are Mormons. We don’t drink these things or use tobacco. Being a practical people, it seems reasonable to choose things to abstain from that generally aren’t good for us in the first place, and that would cause us to interact with the outside world in order to get them in the second. 😉 We are a practical people, if nothing else!!

Although these things have become demonized in and of themselves–and that’s not all that horrible a thing, after all–the basic reason behind the ban is theological and sacrificial, not health rules.

…Which is why diet coke (fully caffeinated) is fine, but decaf coffee isn’t. 😉

On the other hand, we don’t go completely nuts. There’s nothing like green tea to settle a funny tummy.
 
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Dianaiad:
The Church of the LDS," on the other hand, is an appellation used almost entirely by anti-Mormons; it has come to mean “we don’t want to allow you to put Jesus Christ anywhere because it’s not HIS church” It’s a subtle, but very real, insult, bypassing His Name and making it all about the members. Going from that to 'The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" 'feels like" to the antis and the LDS alike, a different name. To the antis who use it knowing how we feel about Jesus Christ and where He stands in our faith, it is a deliberate and not all that subtle insult. To us, it’s a red flag…here is someone whose agenda has nothing of ‘open mindedness’ about it.
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Strange you should say that, since from 1834 to 1838, the name of your church was “Church of the Latter-Day Saints”. The name was only changed to the current one in 1838.
 
dianaiad said:
It was nice of her to post those verses!

However, the reason we specifically avoid coffee, tea, alchohol and tobacco is a little more complicated than that. You’ll notice that the Word of Wisdom says that it was health advice, not a commandment, right?

And it never says coffee. It says hot drinks…which is awful when you want a good cup of hot chocolate

However, after Joseph Smith was murderered,

After he was killed by a mob in a gun battle

WE believe it was inspired…you can call it whatever you want to…but BY came up with this idea; we needed something, some symbol that others could see that would separate us and make us a different…a “peculiar” people. WE do things differently.

This was the same BY who said Adam is our God, bashed blacks, and came up with blood oaths

So…we made a covenant with God

not the TRUE God. The mormon god is NOT the God of the Bible. The mormon god was once a sinful man and had sex with Mary. That is NOT the True God
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PaulDupre said:
Strange you should say that, since from 1834 to 1838, the name of your church was “Church of the Latter-Day Saints”. The name was only changed to the current one in 1838.
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before that it was called the Church of Christ. It seems their god could not make up his mind
 
The Book of Mormon states plainly, and more than once, that the proper name of Christ’s church is “The Church of Christ” (see 3 Ne 26:21). Just another example of how the Book of Mormon is an anti-LDS book.
 
tundramom said:
there you go again calling me a liar.

I didn’t say “shout”. She spoke to another girl across the restaurant. Yes, the words were indeed “error of their ways” and she did say “Catholics”.

Anything else you want to call me a liar for whyme?

Steph

Edit-- “good work” was in quotes because I don’t see it as such. Are you going to turn English professor on me as well?
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I am not calling you a liar at all. I just wanted a clarification. If a young woman speaks to another girl across the restaurant and both are sitting in their respective places, then one girl would have to shout or speak loudly. And I would find that very rude because in order for another girl to hear what the other girl was saying across the restaurant someone would have to speak rather loudly. That is what I was trying to clarify.

So these two girls were close to each other when they were speaking and one was not across the restaurant when being spoke to? Right? And you were just happening to be listening or hearing what they were saying because you were interested. And unfortunately, she was just happening to be saying something about catholics.

I am just trying to see the situation because if she spoke loudly it would be interesting what the other customers thought about it all in terms of their reaction.
 
why_me said:
I am not calling you a liar at all.

That is not really true, is it? You made it clear you did not believe her…you said.

"… I have this feeling that you just heard good work and assumed the rest.

I have a hard time believing…"

That is pretty clear that, without using the word, you were calling her integrity into question
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tundramom said:
I’m glad to see that you do admit this happens. As you can see by whyme’s response to this thread, I’ve been told time and time again that this sort of thing NEVER happens. Don’t worry, I’m not offended by it at all.

Steph
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No, I was not calling you a liar at all. I was just trying to imagine the situation: you and your husband at one table. The young missionary and her family at another table very close to yours. And another young woman and her family across the restaurant. The young missionary going to Poland speaks loudly to the other across the room that she was going to Poland to teach the catholics the error of their ways allowing all in the restaurant to hear the comment. I would call it a little rude for speaking loudly in a restaurant. But then again she was probably excited about her mission and dinner and leaving her parents and made an off the cuff remark without thinking what she was saying.

Such is life for a twenty one year who chose to freely serve her church and is excited about going to Poland.
 
SirThomasMore said:
I have actually looked into being a deacon. The deacon program here is a 5-year course and the next one starts in a 3 or 4 years
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I hope that if you become a deacon you will not call the one true god catholic and the protestant, mormon and muslim god false. That would really stir up the parish. 🙂 And you might even be shown the door as deacon.
 
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