I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

[Reformed]

…but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” - John 10

Paul taught what our Lord Jesus taught. Let’s continue on the same issues, but be nice.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. - Apostle Paul

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

 

[Mannyfit75]

…but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” - John 10

Paul taught what our Lord Jesus taught. Let’s continue on the same issues, but be nice.

IV. Jesus’ Teaching on Losing Salvation

Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God’s holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.

Conclusion: Christians can easily lose their salvation if they do not live out God’s commandments.

 

[Reformed]

IV. Jesus’ Teaching on Losing Salvation

Matt. 7:18 - Jesus says that sound trees bear good fruit. But there is no guarantee that a sound tree will stay sound. It could go rotten.

Matt. 7:21 - all those who say “Lord, Lord” on the last day will not be saved. They are judged by their evil deeds.

Matt. 12:30-32 - Jesus says that he who is not with Him is against Him, therefore (the Greek for “therefore” is “dia toutos” which means “through this”) blasphemy against the Spirit will not be forgiven. This means that failing to persevere in Jesus’ grace to the end is the unforgivable sin against the Spirit. We must persevere in faith to the end of our lives.

Matt. 22:14 - Jesus says many are called but few are chosen. This man, who was destined to grace, was at God’s banquet, but was cast out.

Luke 8:13 - Jesus teaches that some people receive the word with joy, but they have no root, believe for a while, and then fall away in temptation. They had the faith but they lost it.

Luke 12:42-46 - we can start out as a faithful and wise steward, then fall away and be assigned to a place with the unfaithful.

Luke 15:11-32 – in the parable of the prodigal son, we learn that we can be genuine sons of the Father, then leave home and die, then return and be described as “alive again.”

John 6:70-71 - Jesus chose or elected twelve, yet one of them, Judas, fell. Not all those predestined to grace persevere to the end.

John 15:1-10 - we can be in Jesus (a branch on the vine), and then if we don’t bear fruit, are cut off, wither up and die. Paul makes this absolutely clear in Rom. 11:20-23.

John 17:12 - we can be given to Jesus by the Father (predestined to grace) and yet not stay with Jesus, like Judas.

John 6:37 - those who continue to come to Jesus He won’t cast out. But it’s a continuous, ongoing action. We can leave Jesus and He will allow this because He respects our freewill.

John 6:39 - Jesus will not lose those the Father gives Him, but we can fall away, like Judas. God allows us not to persevere.

John 6:40 - everyone who sees the Son and believes means the person “continues” to believe. By continuing to believe, the person will persevere and will be raised up. Belief also includes obedience, which is more than an intellectual belief in God.

John 6:44 - Jesus says no one can come to me unless the Father “draws” him. This “drawing” is an ongoing process.

John 10:27-28 - when Jesus says, “no one shall snatch them out of my hands,” He does not mean we can’t leave His hands. We can choose to walk away from Him.

Rev. 2:4-5 – Jesus tells the Ephesians that they abandoned the love they had at first and have fallen. Jesus warns them to repent and do the works they did at first, otherwise He will remove their lampstand (their awaited place in heaven).

Rev. 3:4 - in Sardis, Jesus explained that some people received the white garment and soiled it with sin.

Rev. 3:5 - Jesus says whoever conquers will not be blotted out of the book of life (see Exodus 32:33). This means that we can be blotted out of the book of life. We can have salvation, and then lose salvation by our choice.

Rev. 3:11 - Jesus says to hold fast to what we have, so that no one may seize our crown. Jesus teaches us that we can have the crown of salvation and lose it.

Rev. 13:10; 14:12 - we are called from heaven for the endurance and faith of the saints, keeping the commandments and faith.

Rev. 21:7 - we must conquer in order to share in our heritage and become a true son of Jesus.

Rev. 22:19 - we can have a share in the tree of life in God’s holy city and yet have that share taken away from us.

Conclusion: Christians can easily lose their salvation if they do not live out God’s commandments.

Hi Manny,

Thanks for the post, but you didn’t post the Scriptures. You just posted personal commentaries to Scripture references.

Two questions:

1. Are they your comments, or did you copy it?
2. You stated that if you do not live out God’s commandments, then you will lose your salvation. How obedient do you need to be in regards of keeping God’s commandments so you won’t lose your salvation? It seems you are proclaiming a works obedience righteousness gospel to me. You also glossed over the OP words of Jesus my friend. It seems to me that you are rejecting a promise of God too. Please address the OP Scriptures since I started the thread.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hi Manny,

Thanks for the post, but you didn’t post the Scriptures. You just posted personal commentaries to a Scripture reference.

Two questions:

1. Are they your comments, or did you copy it?

I copy and paste it from Scripture Catholic which gives summary that OSAS is against Scripture.

1. You stated that if you do not live out God’s commandments, then you will lose your salvation. How obedient do you need to be in regards of keeping God’s commandments so you won’t lose your salvation? It seems you are proclaiming a works obedience righteousness gospel to me.

Obedient is out of love for God. Jesus said, “If you love me, obey my commandments.” I recall St. Paul himself said, "“To work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?” (Phil. 2:12)

You might ponder why St. Paul made such statement. If he did taught eternal security, this verse and many verse like it would contradict the concept of OSAS. I do not think St. Paul lies here.

I’m not reject God’s promised. I believed everything what he has taught and done. A human being has a free will to accept God or reject him. A person who sins rejects God and separate himself until he repents and is sorrowful for his sins.

Jesus when he first proclaim his kingdom, he said, “Repent and Kingdom of heaven is at hand.” In Acts, Peter said, " “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him.”

Peter nor Jesus nor the other Apostles did not “PICK and CHOOSE” one word. Conversion requires repentance for your sins, be baptized." You cannot pick and chose Biblical verses to fit the doctrine of Eternal Security.

 

[Reformed]

I copy and paste it from Scripture Catholic which gives summary that OSAS is against Scripture.

Obedient is out of love for God. Jesus said, “If you love me, obey my commandments.” I recall St. Paul himself said, "“To work out your own salvation with fear and trembling?” (Phil. 2:12)

You might ponder why St. Paul made such statement. If he did taught eternal security, this verse and many verse like it would contradict the concept of OSAS. I do not think St. Paul lies here.

Thanks for your honesty. It’s very important to quote your sources because they are bias, right? You also should try to complete Paul’s thought in Philipians 2:12 for additional insight to your own question.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

I’m not trying to fight, but don’t discount a clear promise of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is saying that no one including self can snatch us from the hands of Jesus AND the Father. Why do you want to doubt such a precious promise which grows our affection for God? Do you think that there is something is creation that is stronger than our Triune God?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Thanks for your honesty. It’s very important to quote your sources because they are bias, right?

I do not think they are bias if they come from a Catholic source who is well educated in Scripture.

You also should try to complete Paul’s thought in Philipians 2:12 for additional insight to your own question. I’m not trying to fight, but don’t discount a clear promise of the Lord Jesus Christ. He is saying that no one including self can snatch us from the hands of Jesus AND the Father. Why do you want to doubt such a precious promise which grows our affection for God?

I have no doubt in God’s promise. God never taught eternal security or OSAS. If he did why did Judas who is one of the twelve sinned. If he was one of the elect, shouldn’t he be safe from sinning? I have read that passage and many others like it and none of support your belief in OSAS.

Do you think that there is something is creation that is stronger than our Triune God?

Nothing is stronger than God. He is the only uncreated Being. He has no beginning nor end. He is Alpha and the Omega. God also honors us by giving us a free will do good or do evil.

He does not desire us to die in our sin. He hates sins and it offends him. God is offended by sin everyday. The problem with OSAS or the belief that a Christian cannot lose his salvation because “he accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior” is misleading.

I believe it is harmful because it gives a false sense of security. A man who believe this could justify adultery and not worry going to hell.

 

[Reformed]

Hi Manny,

It is good to use clear passages of scripture to help understand other scriptures that are less clear. Please help me understand what you think the Lord Jesus Christ meant by:

but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” - John 10

BTW - Thank you for your service to our country!

 

[Mannyfit75]

Hi Manny,

It is good to use clear passages of scripture to help understand other scripture that is less clear. Please help me understand what you think the Lord Jesus Christ meant by:

but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” - John 10

Jesus is speaking to the Pharisees in this passage. They did not believe him. Jesus also said that his followers hears his voice and they know him and they follow him. To follow is Jesus to obey what he has commanded us to do.

Jesus also promised them eternal life if they believe what he has told them. Jesus spoke these words clearly but the passage in John 10 is just one of the many sayings of Jesus. This passage does not justify the belief of Eternal Security.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I like to quote the following passages:

Mark 4:16 (Luke 8:13) "And in a similar way these are the ones on whom seed was sown on the rocky places, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; (they believe for a while) and they have no firm root in themselves, but are only temporary; then, when affliction or persecution arises because of the word, immediately they fall away.

Galatians 5:4 “You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.”

John 15:5-6 “I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.” \

Romans 11:19-23 “You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will He spare you. Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in; for God is able to graft them in again.”

Hebrews 6:4-6 For in the case of those who have once been enlightened and have tasted of the heavenly gift and have been made partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, and then have fallen away, it is impossible to renew them again to repentance, since they again crucify to themselves the Son of God, and put Him to open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-27 For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a certain terrifying expectation of judgment, and the fury of a fire which will consume the adversaries."

Hebrews 10:38-39 “But My righteous one shall live by faith; And if he shrinks back, My soul has no pleasure in him. But we are not of those who shrink back to destruction, but of those who have faith to the preserving of the soul.”

 

[Reformed]

I do not think they are bias if they come from a Catholic source who is well educated in Scripture.

I have no doubt in God’s promise. God never taught eternal security or OSAS. If he did why did Judas who is one of the twelve sinned. If he was one of the elect, shouldn’t he be safe from sinning? I have read that passage and many others like it and none of support your belief in OSAS.

Nothing is stronger than God. He is the only uncreated Being. He has no beginning nor end. He is Alpha and the Omega. God also honors us by giving us a free will do good or do evil.

He does not desire us to die in our sin. He hates sins and it offends him. God is offended by sin everyday. The problem with OSAS or the belief that a Christian cannot lose his salvation because “he accept Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior” is misleading.

I believe it is harmful because it gives a false sense of security. A man who believe this could justify adultery and not worry going to hell.

I’m glad you brought up Judas. Much is written about him. Please consider studying all the passages about Judas and see if he was an elect chosen before the foundations of the world to be a vessel of mercy. So why did Judas apostate and not Peter (denied Christ 3 times), or the other 10? Actually, John 6 also states that Jesus had additional disciples who could not receive His hard teaching and no longer followed Jesus.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Peter 2:17-22
17 These men are springs without water and mists driven by a storm. Blackest darkness is reserved for them. 18 For they mouth empty, boastful words and, by appealing to the lustful desires of sinful human nature, they entice people who are just escaping from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, while they themselves are slaves of depravity-for a man is a slave to whatever has mastered him. 20 If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. 21 It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them. 22 Of them the proverbs are true: “A dog returns to its vomit,” and, “A sow that is washed goes back to her wallowing in the mud.”
NIV

Gal 5:1-5
5:1 It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery. 2 Mark my words! I, Paul, tell you that if you let yourselves be circumcised, Christ will be of no value to you at all. 3 Again I declare to every man who lets himself be circumcised that he is obligated to obey the whole law. 4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.
NIV

Heb 6:1-8
6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary teachings about Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again the foundation of repentance from acts that lead to death, and of faith in God, 2 instruction about baptisms, the laying on of hands, the resurrection of the dead, and eternal judgment. 3 And God permitting, we will do so. 4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age, 6 if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.
7 Land that drinks in the rain often falling on it and that produces a crop useful to those for whom it is farmed receives the blessing of God. 8 But land that produces thorns and thistles is worthless and is in danger of being cursed. In the end it will be burned.
NIV

John 15:1-8
15:1 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. 5 "I am the vine; you are the branches. If a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be given you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
NIV

Matt 24:9-13
9 "Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.

 

[Mannyfit75]

I’m glad you brought up Judas. Much is written about him. Please consider studying all the passages about Judas and see if he was an elect chosen before the foundations of the world to be a vessel of mercy. So why did Judas apostate and not Peter (denied Christ 3 times), or the other 10? Actually, John 6 also states that Jesus had additional disciples who could not receive His hard teaching and no longer followed Jesus.

The difference between Judas and Peter is clear. Judas was in dispair and Peter repented. He make up what he did, when he told Jesus that he love him three times. This itself is a form of repentence. Peter had to make up for his denial of Jesus Christ.

 

[Reformed]

The difference between Judas and Peter is clear. Judas was in dispair and Peter repented. He make up what he did, when he told Jesus that he love him three times. This itself is a form of repentence. Peter had to make up for his denial of Jesus Christ.

Do you think repentance is granted by God to some sinners according to the Scriptures?

 

[Mannyfit75]

Do you think repentance is granted by God to some sinners according to the Scriptures?

Repentence is granted all of us. We have to decide for ourselves if we have to repent when we sin. If we do not repent we will be judge accordingly to what we have done on earth.

 

[With_Questions]

He is saying that no one including self can snatch us from the hands of Jesus AND the Father.

Why do think the verse is “including self”?

I say that because when I consider the verb snatch, it really does not seem to apply when both the subject and the object are the same.

Often when I wrestle with the meaning of a verse, I try to use the same words in a neutral context.

If I am in a car or any other confined space, an intruder can “snatch” me from this location against my will by forcibly overpowering me and moving my body to another location.

However, if I voluntarily walk away from the car, I am not “snatching” myself from the car. Instead I am voluntarily changing my location.

So if we don’t normally use the verb “snatch” when the subject and object are the same (at least I have never heard the verb used in that context), I don’t understand how this verse “includes self”.

Of course I don’t know Greek and perhaps my translation is not the best.

By the say Manny, I like your quote by Father Corapi. My pastor often says the same thing.

 

[Reformed]

Repentence is granted all of us. We have to decide for ourselves if we have to repent when we sin. If we do not repent we will be judge accordingly to what we have done on earth.

Please try to go to bible.com and do a word search on “repentance”. I think Scripture reveals something quite different than your answer. On the same idea, why was Peter able to know that Jesus was the Christ?

 

[Reformed]

Why do think the verse is “including self”?

I say that because when I consider the verb snatch, it really does not seem to apply when both the subject and the object are the same.

Often when I wrestle with the meaning of a verse, I try to use the same words in a neutral context.

If I am in a car or any other confined space, an intruder can “snatch” me from this location against my will by forcibly overpowering me and moving my body to another location.

However, if I voluntarily walk away from the car, I am not “snatching” myself from the car. Instead I am voluntarily changing my location.

So if we don’t normally use the verb “snatch” when the subject and object are the same (at least I have never heard the verb used in that context), I don’t understand how this verse “includes self”.

Of course I don’t know Greek and perhaps my translation is not the best.

Why would Jesus make such a precious promise if He thought we could snatch ourselves from His hand and His Father’s hand? Why would God adopt you into His family and let you apostate? For God knows all things beforehand, and would have no reason to adopt someone who would later apostate. That would make God a liar in regards to the OP Scriptures.

 

[tGette]

Why would Jesus make such a precious promise if He thought we could snatch ourselves from His hand and His Father’s hand? Why would God adopt you into His family and let you apostate? For God knows all things beforehand, and would have no reason to adopt someone who would later apostate. That would make God a liar in regards to the OP Scriptures.

Hence, why the Catholic Church is not apostate!
God gave us a Church and entrusted the continuation of it in the hands of people who would not apostate.
God would be a liar if this were any other way.

Slightly off topic…but…I could not resist!

 

[With_Questions]

Why would Jesus make such a precious promise if He thought we could snatch ourselves from His hand and His Father’s hand? Why would God adopt you into His family and let you apostate? For God knows all things beforehand, and would have no reason to adopt someone who would later apostate. That would make God a liar in regards to the OP Scriptures.

I think you miss my point.

I am trying to analyze the plain English meanings of the words in this verse. I have never seen the verb “snatch” used when the subject and the object are the same. Maybe you have, but I don’t think of that verb in this way.

Therefore, according to the plain English meanings of the words in this verse, the case where the subject and the object are the same really does not seem to be applicable when the verb “snatch” is used.

In other words, I can not tell from this verse rather it is possible or impossible for me to walk away as a believer from the Father’s hand.

As far as the questions you ask, this verse also does not address them. However, I personally try to avoid questions “Why would God…” because from my vantage point God does (and fails to do) quite a few things that does not make sense to me.

 

[Mannyfit75]

Please try to go to bible.com and do a word search on “repentance”. I think Scripture reveals something quite different than your answer. On the same idea, why was Peter able to know that Jesus was the Christ?

Because he believe. he could have if he wanted to deny it but he didn’t. He had a free will. Scripture shows that he was not always perfect. Even Paul extort him for not following what he preached and he corrected Peter.