I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.

[Reformed]

That’s legible if the text is covered with a cursor - but not otherwise ​

**Is this really good foir the eyes ? - it’s impossible to cotrret **

I don’t post for debate sake. I write so we can reflect how great of a God that we have, and to help all of us grow in affection for God. Check out your signature:

Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Thy faithful, and enkindle in them the fire of Thy Love

I thought the Holy Spirit is already here, dwelling in our bodies.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 1 Cor 6

 

[tGette]

Maybe God is using this thread to transform you into a Protestant.

Which kind?

I found this on your personal site: Interest: Finding the Will of God in my life.

Here is the will of God in your life…

The will of God in your life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever (1 Cor 10:31).

HEY! That site is personal!

Thanks for the quote though!

 

[Gottle_of_Geer]

I don’t post for debate sake. I write so we can reflect how great of a God that we have, and to help all of us grow in affection for God. Check out your signature:

Come Holy Spirit, fill the hearts of Thy faithful, and enkindle in them the fire of Thy Love

I thought the Holy Spirit is already here, dwelling in our bodies.

Or do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, for you were bought with a price. So glorify God in your body. 1 Cor 6

Christ is present where two or three are gathered together in His Name - & is also Present at the right hand of the Father. Both statements are true (as are others). We don’t have understand how this is so, but we do have to believe that it is so ​

First we believe - then, & not before, we may, perhaps, understand. And as with the Son, so with the Spirit.

 

[Thing]

Originally Posted by Reformed
Why would Jesus make such a precious promise if He thought we could snatch ourselves from His hand and His Father’s hand? Why would God adopt you into His family and let you apostate? For God knows all things beforehand, and would have no reason to adopt someone who would later apostate. That would make God a liar in regards to the OP Scriptures.

Christ sends out his twelve apostles.

And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

A word of caution to the chosen Apostles. Why would he tell them to fear the one who could destroy their souls if it were, as you say, an impossibility. God does not waste words, I think.

 

[Nickkname]

…but you do not believe because you are not part of my flock. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.” - John 10

Paul taught what our Lord Jesus taught. Let’s continue on the same issues, but be nice.

There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. - Apostle Paul

http://www.christcenteredmall.com/teachings/armor/sword.jpg

Are you saying that once saved, always saved? That simply being Christian means you’re guarneteed salvation? Yet that is contrary to Jesus’ teaching on the two roads, the tree that bears fruit, and the parable of the unfathiful servant. It is also contrary to Holy Communion: Those who are unworthy do not receive Jesus. Now if we being Christian was enough for salvation, than why would a man who is in mortal sin be barred from receving his Lord and Savior? Why would the Lord not allow unworthy reception of His Body and Blood? Because sin is real and the title Christian dose not equal salvation, nor are those who are simply baptized saved.

Jesus is speaking about Himself: He is Eternal Life and those who abide in Him will have eternal life. Who are those who abide in Jesus, who are those who have no condemnation? It is they who abide in love, they who obey the commandments of God, as Jesus Himself said at the Last Supper (John 15: 9-10): As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.

 

[With_Questions]

Have you wrestled much with Romans chapter 9 for starters?

Actually I am well familiar with the Romans 9 argument (and Ephesians 1).

Here is my problem.

In the great Calvinism / Arminianism debates, I can predict the Scriptures that both sides will lead off with to make their initial points. In fact, that has been done already in this thread.

What interests me, however, is how each side answers the body of Scriptures presented by the other side. Everything that I have read on this topic suggests that each side will dance around the other side’s body of Scriptures in a way that is intellectually not satisfying to me.

I predict that will happen in this thread, except I have not yet seen each side address the body of Scriptures with their resultant questions posed by the other side.

Maybe I will read something new in this thread that pushes me over the cliff one side or another, but I sort of doubt it.

That having been said, one of the very unappealing aspects of Catholicism if I am to be honest is their “hyper Arminianism” (I don’t know if there is such a term, but I will invent it now). The only parallel that I have encountered is in some holiness Pentecostal sects like one guy I knew who said that if a women was wearing pants and the rapture came she would be left behind.

If I understand it correctly, they want me to believe that I am saved one day. Then I skip mass because I am lazy. Oops, mortal sin. I’m lost. Then I go to confession. Whew. Saved again. Until my next mortal sin.

Never mind all of these poor lost souls (including most Catholics including my dear cousin) who use artificial contraception. Of course these are all hellbound.

So my eternal destiny is sort of like rolling the dice. Better hope that I don’t get hit by a truck after missing mass.

 

[Mannyfit75]

If I understand it correctly, they want me to believe that I am saved one day. Then I skip mass because I am lazy. Oops, mortal sin. I’m lost. Then I go to confession. Whew. Saved again. Until my next mortal sin.

Never mind all of these poor lost souls (including most Catholics including my dear cousin) who use artificial contraception. Of course these are all hellbound.

So my eternal destiny is sort of like rolling the dice. Better hope that I don’t get hit by a truck after missing mass.

There is a requirement for confession to be valid. A sinner must have have a contrite heart and truly sorry for his sins. A sinner must also make a firm purpose of amendment to avoid temptations that leads him into sin.

What you are implying in your example, “Better hope that I do not get hit b a truck” is sin of presumption. You presumed to be saved just because you miss mass.

The sin of presumption means, "“It may be defined as the condition of a soul which, because of a badly regulated reliance on God’s mercy and power, hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them.”

Don’t presume you will gain God’s mercy because you think going to confession is a “get out of jail free card.” Certains measures must be taken for the sinner to make the Absolution valid.

 

[SD_Catholic]

Maybe God is using this thread to transform you into a Protestant.

I found this on your personal site: Interest: Finding the Will of God in my life.

Here is the will of God in your life…

The will of God in your life is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever (1 Cor 10:31).

OK… how do we glorify God? What if we don’t?

SD

 

[With_Questions]

There is a requirement for confession to be valid. A sinner must have have a contrite heart and truly sorry for his sins. A sinner must also make a firm purpose of amendment to avoid temptations that leads him into sin.

What you are implying in your example, “Better hope that I do not get hit b a truck” is sin of presumption. You presumed to be saved just because you miss mass.

The sin of presumption means, "“It may be defined as the condition of a soul which, because of a badly regulated reliance on God’s mercy and power, hopes for salvation without doing anything to deserve it, or for pardon of his sins without repenting of them.”

Don’t presume you will gain God’s mercy because you think going to confession is a “get out of jail free card.” Certains measures must be taken for the sinner to make the Absolution valid.

OK.

But this does not address my point.

You agree that the following is a plausible scenario in Catholicism:
(1) Person A is saved (I think the Catholic term is in a state of grace) on one day
(2) Person A commits some mortal sin like missing mass
(3) Person A is now lost (not in a state of grace)
(4) Person A goes to confession and receives absolution. Person A is now saved again
(5) Person A commits some other mortal sin
(6) Go to 3

And so this cycle continues throughout his life.

In otherwords, your eternal destiny is dependent upon not being in a state of mortal sin. Which means that throughout the course of a lifetime it fluctuates.

 

[Reformed]

Christ sends out his twelve apostles.

And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

A word of caution to the chosen Apostles. Why would he tell them to fear the one who could destroy their souls if it were, as you say, an impossibility. God does not waste words, I think.

Maybe it has to do with the order of revelation and the audience? But that’s a good point. Scripture sometimes seems to have apparent contradictions. But we know if is impossible for God to contradict Himself. God does not reveal all Scripture truth at one moment. Therefore, keep meditating on His Word day and night with prayer. Consider John 17 in regards to the Apostles.

I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[Reformed]

Are you saying that once saved, always saved? That simply being Christian means you’re guarneteed salvation? Yet that is contrary to Jesus’ teaching on the two roads, the tree that bears fruit, and the parable of the unfathiful servant. It is also contrary to Holy Communion: Those who are unworthy do not receive Jesus. Now if we being Christian was enough for salvation, than why would a man who is in mortal sin be barred from receving his Lord and Savior? Why would the Lord not allow unworthy reception of His Body and Blood? Because sin is real and the title Christian dose not equal salvation, nor are those who are simply baptized saved.

Jesus is speaking about Himself: He is Eternal Life and those who abide in Him will have eternal life. Who are those who abide in Jesus, who are those who have no condemnation? It is they who abide in love, they who obey the commandments of God, as Jesus Himself said at the Last Supper (John 15: 9-10): As the Father loves me, so I also love you. Remain in my love. If you keep my commandments, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and remain in his love.

No, I do not believe in OSAS. I believe in the P in TULIP. Here is information on the “P”.

The perseverance of the saints means that all those who are truly born again will be kept by God’s power and will persevere as Christians until the end of their lives, and that only those who persevere until the end have been truly born again.
Wayne Grudem from Systematic Theology (pg. 788)

If our religion be of our own getting or making, it will perish; and the sooner it goes, the better; but if our religion is a matter of God’s giving, we know that He shall never take back what He gives, and that, if He has commenced to work in us by His grace, He will never leave it unfinished.
C.H. Spurgeon

For non-reformed theologies…“at the end of the day, the security of the believer finally rests with the believer. For those in the opposite camp [Reformed], the security of the believer finally rests with God – and that, I suggest, rightly taught, draws the believer back to God himself, to trust in God, to a renewed faith that is of a piece with trusting him in the first place.”
D.A. Carson

When we speak of “once saved, always saved,” we are not taking into account the full scope of salvation. We have been saved (justification), was are being saved (sanctified), and we will one day be saved (glorified). You cannot claim to have been “saved” (justified) unless you are being sanctified. Jesus Christ is Savior and Lord.
Michael Horton from Putting the Amazing Back into Grace (pg. 171)

monergism.com/directory/link_category/Doctrines-of-Grace/Perseverance-of-Saints/

 

[Reformed]

Actually I am well familiar with the Romans 9 argument (and Ephesians 1).

Here is my problem.

In the great Calvinism / Arminianism debates, I can predict the Scriptures that both sides will lead off with to make their initial points. In fact, that has been done already in this thread.

What interests me, however, is how each side answers the body of Scriptures presented by the other side. Everything that I have read on this topic suggests that each side will dance around the other side’s body of Scriptures in a way that is intellectually not satisfying to me.

I predict that will happen in this thread, except I have not yet seen each side address the body of Scriptures with their resultant questions posed by the other side.

Maybe I will read something new in this thread that pushes me over the cliff one side or another, but I sort of doubt it.

That having been said, one of the very unappealing aspects of Catholicism if I am to be honest is their “hyper Arminianism” (I don’t know if there is such a term, but I will invent it now). The only parallel that I have encountered is in some holiness Pentecostal sects like one guy I knew who said that if a women was wearing pants and the rapture came she would be left behind.

If I understand it correctly, they want me to believe that I am saved one day. Then I skip mass because I am lazy. Oops, mortal sin. I’m lost. Then I go to confession. Whew. Saved again. Until my next mortal sin.

Never mind all of these poor lost souls (including most Catholics including my dear cousin) who use artificial contraception. Of course these are all hellbound.

So my eternal destiny is sort of like rolling the dice. Better hope that I don’t get hit by a truck after missing mass.

Have you wrested with Reformed Theology, 5 Points of Calvinism and the sovereignity of God? Here is a good link for self-study.

monergism.com/

Which position glorifies God, and which position glorifies man? One position runs out of Scripture very quickly. There is only room for one sovereign in this Universe.

 

[Reformed]

OK… how do we glorify God? What if we don’t?

SD

Great question. We know faith pleases God. We are to trust in Him and hold on to His precious promises. We are to treasure Him above all things. When we fall back to our personal idols, we repent and have faith in His Son as being sufficient for us for all things. As we grow in the grace and knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ, we progessively learn to treasure Him above all things; therefore we grow in obedience out of love and gratitude for what He has done for us in Christ. We cannot have a relationship with God as our judge who is condemning us for our sins as Christians. We have to have a relationship with God as our Heavenly Father because this is what Christ earned for us. How do you think we should glorify God? Doubting in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ does not please God. Look to Him and not to ourselves.

 

[Thing]

Maybe it has to do with the order of revelation and the audience? But that’s a good point. Scripture sometimes seems to have apparent contradictions. But we know if is impossible for God to contradict Himself. God does not reveal all Scripture truth at one moment. Therefore, keep meditating on His Word day and night with prayer. Consider John 17 in regards to the Apostles.

I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours. 10 All mine are yours, and yours are mine, and I am glorified in them. 11 And I am no longer in the world, but they are in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one. 12 While I was with them, I kept them in your name, which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.

As you say, Scripture does not trump Scripture.

And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

So we know now that a follower of Christ ought to fear the one who can destroy both his soul and body in hell, and that the follower of Christ ought not fear bodily death if that one has not killed his soul.

 

[Mannyfit75]

OK.

But this does not address my point.

You agree that the following is a plausible scenario in Catholicism:
(1) Person A is saved (I think the Catholic term is in a state of grace) on one day
(2) Person A commits some mortal sin like missing mass
(3) Person A is now lost (not in a state of grace)
(4) Person A goes to confession and receives absolution. Person A is now saved again
(5) Person A commits some other mortal sin
(6) Go to 3

And so this cycle continues throughout his life.

In otherwords, your eternal destiny is dependent upon not being in a state of mortal sin. Which means that throughout the course of a lifetime it fluctuates.

To make sin mortal, it has to meet the three conditions.

1. Mortal sin is a sin of grave matter
2. Mortal sin is committed with full knowledge of the sinner
3. Mortal sin is committed with deliberate consent of the sinner.

Missing Mass does not always constitute a mortal sin. For example, a Catholic who desires to go to Mass but cannot attend Mass because he is deployed overseas and on patrol.

If these three conditions are not meet, the sin is venial.

This means that mortal sins cannot be done “accidentally.” A person who commits a mortal sin is one who knows that their sin is wrong, but still deliberately commits the sin anyway. This means that mortal sins are “premeditated” by the sinner and thus are truly a rejection of God’s law and love.

The first condition, that a mortal sin is of grave matter, means that certain premeditated offenses against God are more severe than others. We know that some sins are graver than others (e.g. it is a graver sin to murder someone than to lie to someone). St. John tells us, “If anyone sees his brother sinning, if the sin is not deadly, he should pray to God and he will give him life. This is only for those whose sin is not deadly. There is such a thing as deadly sin, about which I do not say that you should pray. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin that is not deadly.” (1 John 5:16-17). Thus St. John distinguishes between mortal and venial sin. Jesus also warns us that “Anyone who does not remain in me will be thrown out like a branch and wither; people will gather them and throw them into a fire and they will be burned” (John 15:6).

 

[Mannyfit75]

What kinds of offenses against God constitute “grave matter”?

In the Bible, St. Paul gives us a list of grave sins. He states that anyone who commits these sins shall not enter the kingdom of God. "Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God" (Galatians 5:19-20). Paul also tells the Corinthians, "know you no that the unjust shall not possess the kingdom of God? Do not err: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, Nor the effeminate, nor liers with mankind, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards nor railers, nor extortioners shall possess the kingdom of God" (1 Corinthians 6:9-10). These sins constitute grave matter, and if they are committed willingly and with full consent, constitute mortal sin. 

The Church also tells us that the sins of anger, blasphemy, envy, hatred, malice, murder, neglect of Sunday obligation, sins against faith (incredulity against God or heresy), sins against hope (obstinate despair in the hope for salvation and/or presumption that oneself can live without God or be saved by one’s own power) and sins against love (indifference towards charity, ingratitude, and/or hatred of God) also constitute grave matter. This list of grave sins, is based on Jesus Christ’s interpretation of the gravity of the Ten Commandments. Grave sins can be classed as sins against God, neighbor and self, and can further be divided into carnal and spiritual sins (CCC 1853).

Four other sins are considered grave also. These sins not only offend God, but men as well. Thus these four sins are called "the sins that cry to heaven for vengeance" and are likewise mortal sins. These grave sins are:

The voluntary murder (Genesis 4:10)
The sin of impurity against nature –Sodomy and homosexual relations (Genesis 18:20)
Taking advantage of the poor (Exodus 2:23)
Defrauding the workingman of his wages (James 5:4)
Finally, the capital sins are also considered grave matter. These sins are vices and are defined as contrary to the Christian virtues of holiness. They are pride, avarice, envy, wrath, lust, gluttony, and sloth (acedia).

 

[SD_Catholic]

Great question. We know faith pleases God. We are to trust in Him and hold on to His precious promises. We are to treasure Him above all things. When we fall back to our personal idols, we repent and have faith in His Son as being sufficient for us for all things. As we grow in the grace and knowledge in the Lord Jesus Christ, we progessively learn to treasure Him above all things; therefore we grow in obedience out of love and gratitude for what He has done for us in Christ. We cannot have a relationship with God as our judge who is condemning us for our sins as Christians. We have to have a relationship with God as our Heavenly Father because this is what Christ earned for us. How do you think we should glorify God? Doubting in the sufficiency of Jesus Christ does not please God. Look to Him and not to ourselves.

I’m sorry to say but I always find this interesting… Most Protestants say we don’t have to do anything because Jesus did it all. Now it seems this is what you’re saying also… but look at the things you’ve listed that a person should do… trust in him, hold his precious promises, treasure him above all things, repent, etc… aren’t these all things the person does aside from what Jesus has already did? What if a person does none of these things but still claims to be a Christian or a “believer”?

SD

 

[Reformed]

As you say, Scripture does not trump Scripture.

And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.

So we know now that a follower of Christ ought to fear the one who can destroy both his soul and body in hell, and that the follower of Christ ought not fear bodily death if that one has not killed his soul.

Here is additional consideration for those who are in Christ. Remember, there is therfore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.

1 John 4:18

There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear. For fear has to do with punishment, and whoever fears has not been perfected in love.

 

[Reformed]

I’m sorry to say but I always find this interesting… Most Protestants say we don’t have to do anything because Jesus did it all. Now it seems this is what you’re saying also… but look at the things you’ve listed that a person should do… trust in him, hold his precious promises, treasure him above all things, repent, etc… aren’t these all things the person does aside from what Jesus has already did? What if a person does none of these things but still claims to be a Christian or a “believer”?

SD

Paul tells us to press on… and to do by the Spirit of God…to the glory of God. Apart from Christ we can do nothing. But we can do all things through Christ who strenghens us. It is not I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me. The love of Christ compells me to do… I think those are not progessively doing what is commanded, then that is good evidence that person has not been born from above. James 2 is about a false profession of faith, or a dead faith, or an uncoverted faith generated in the flesh.

Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure. - Phil 2

Make Your Calling and Election Sure
3 His divine power has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to [3] his own glory and excellence, [4] 4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. 5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, [5] and virtue with knowledge, 6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, 7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. 8 For if these qualities [6] are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins. 10 Therefore, brothers, [7] be all the more diligent to make your calling and election sure, for if you practice these qualities you will never fall. 11 For in this way there will be richly provided for you an entrance into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. - @ Peter 1

 

[Peter_J]

Why do think the verse is “including self”?

I say that because when I consider the verb snatch, it really does not seem to apply when both the subject and the object are the same.

Often when I wrestle with the meaning of a verse, I try to use the same words in a neutral context.

If I am in a car or any other confined space, an intruder can “snatch” me from this location against my will by forcibly overpowering me and moving my body to another location.

However, if I voluntarily walk away from the car, I am not “snatching” myself from the car. Instead I am voluntarily changing my location.

So if we don’t normally use the verb “snatch” when the subject and object are the same (at least I have never heard the verb used in that context), I don’t understand how this verse “includes self”.