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Mannyfit75
Guest
Correct we have to always OBEY if we do not, we would fall into sin and thus lose our salvation. That is why we have to "work out with our salvation with fear and tremble.
I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.
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Peter_J
Guest
We (Catholics I mean) do not proclaim a gospel of works. “Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.”
- You stated that if you do not live out God’s commandments, then you will lose your salvation. How obedient do you need to be in regards of keeping God’s commandments so you won’t lose your salvation? It seems you are proclaiming a works obedience righteousness gospel to me.
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Peter_J
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Reformed
Guest
No, I completly disagree with what you posted. Nobdoy obeys God in complete obedience for 1 day. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God as Christians everyday. You are proclaiming a works righteousness gospel based on personal obedience. I think you have to understand the historic Protestant position of justication on the imputed righteousness of Christ to our account to follow what I have posted. Growing obedience, repentance and faith as a general pattern are evidences of being justified.
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Reformed
Guest
Are you saying personal merit does not contribute to your salvation based on official Roman Catholic doctrine? To sola of grace alone is not enough.
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SD_Catholic
Guest
I’m not sure you’ve answered what happens if we don’t do all these things that we are told to do? Just that we aren’t quite there yet I guess… but when does somebody actually qualify as meeting all those standards?.. what if they at some point meet all these standards only to fall away from those and end up back at the bottom or completely doing a 180 and wind up rejecting all this “Jesus stuff”? (It does happen you know).
I’ll tell you what I think in case you’re wondering… Any of our works that don’t reflect God in our lives mean nothing… If we have the type of Faith that we should then God’s grace will work in us and we will show that grace by the fruits of our “works”… if there are no fruits to show his grace than there is no faith… Works apart from God’s grace or worthless and will be burnt in the fire… I don’t think of a good and faithful “servant” as someone who just stands by and does nothing…
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Reformed
Guest
If you really study official Roman Catholic doctrine of infused grace and the historic Protestant doctrine of imputation, and a forensic justification… you will better understand why we are worlds apart. Things really haven’t changed in 500 years in our differences in our view of salvation and the gospel of God’s grace. It’s difficult to not view Roman Catholicism to be a justification by personal merit (works righteousness).
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Understanding Catholic soteriology is complicated for Protestants by these things:
- CS is more developed in the Roman Rite than in some other Catholic Rites
- CS emphasises different topics from some Protestantisms: election is very important in Calvinism, far less so in Catholicism. Ecclesiology OTOH is of vast importance in Catholicism
- RC soteriology is not Augustinian alone - Augustinian emphases are one expression amomg others of the systems in Catholic thought. Calvinism OTOH has always been strongly Augustinian, if not always consciously so.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
You are forgetting:
- God’s Love, which is biassed in our favour. He is not impartial, but positively wills that all men be saved. He could not do more to prove this than by being crucified for His enemies. People who are not moved by love as great as that are duller than stone or wood
- that if anyone is damned, it is wholly by his own fault, & is never less than his desert.
- damnation is never a “mistake”
- damnation is impossible where there is repentance for sin caused by grace
- God ALWAYS makes the first move to rescue us from sin.
- We should always have the most boundless confidence that God is Our - Good - Father.
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Thing
Guest
Yes, but we know there is a problem with this verse so rather than quoting lots of different verses we should interpret this verse correctly first.
As you say, Scripture does not trump Scripture.
And fear ye not them that kill the body, and are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him that can destroy both soul and body in hell.
So we know now that a follower of Christ ought to fear the one who can destroy both his soul and body in hell, and that the follower of Christ ought not fear bodily death if that one has not killed his soul.
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With_Questions
Guest
Hi Gottle.You are forgetting:
- God’s Love, which is biassed in our favour. He is not impartial, but positively wills that all men be saved. He could not do more to prove this than by being crucified for His enemies. People who are not moved by love as great as that are duller than stone or wood
- that if anyone is damned, it is wholly by his own fault, & is never less than his desert.
- damnation is never a “mistake”
- damnation is impossible where there is repentance for sin caused by grace
- God ALWAYS makes the first move to rescue us from sin.
- We should always have the most boundless confidence that God is Our - Good - Father.
You seem to give different answers than other Catholics around here that I sort of like. Perhaps if there were more like you, I would have a different impression of Catholicism.
Anyway, to prevent this thread from getting sidetracked I will be starting another thread on a mortal sin scenario I have created. Your (name removed by moderator)ut as well as the (name removed by moderator)ut of others will be welcome.
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SD_Catholic
Guest
Why would I want to study 500 different views of Protestant thoughts on salvation over 500 years… what about the 1500 years before that?
How you insist on viewing RC doctrine is your issue not ours… does my previous post seem to point to the idea that I think we are saved by our works aside from God’s grace? All we can do is try our best to explain the teachings… we can’t make you believe them.
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Reformed
Guest
The Protestant Reformers left the Roman Church to follow the truth. I thought you would be humbly challenged to see what convinced them to depart from the Roman Church. Many were willing to die for their understanding of the truth. The central issue is the gospel of God’s grace on behalf of sinners. Even though you may not believe and agree with the Reformers, it would be beneficial to understand each other’s perspective. Do you think I understand the Catholic way of salvation through the sacraments and infused grace?
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
Knowledge of the remote sources of a doctrine is not the same as knowledge & understanding of doctrine itself. The history of the canon of the Mass shows this - there is a genetic development from the beginning until now, so knowledge of the Roman canon as it was in 1474 will not automatically show what the same canon was like in 600 or so. So with doctrines, Catholic & other.
If people don’t understand a doctrine, they have no business criticising it; so their comments can & should be discounted. Discussions of Reformed doctrine might get somewhere, if only Catholics had the elementary good sense to read Reformed accounts of Reformed teaching. Not to do so, is an excellent way to make oneself look foolish, & ignorant, & bigoted: & if ever there were a way not to conduct apologetics, it is that. How can there be informed debate, where there is no use of information ?Understanding is not the same as agreement - without it, misunderstanding, & ill-feeling, & all the evils that flow from these two, will poison generations to come, when they need do no such thing
Are we so afraid that our own faith will collapse, that we dare not read Calvin, Zanchius, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Puritans, A.A. Hodge, & others, so as to find out what Reformed theologians say about what they believe
? If we don’t do our homework, we are absolutely guaranteed to misdescribe, misjudge, & misunderstand their doctrines. But how is this any different from Reformed mistakes about what the CC teaches ? If we wish to be treated honestly & fairly, we have to begin by showing those qualities ourselves - then others may treat us as we want them to treat us. The Fathers, are so much praised on these forums, did not ignore what heathens, Jews & others wrote: Aquinas’ work is studded with quotations of & references to non-Catholics. Why are modern Catholics so slow to follow his example ?
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Catherine_S
Guest
We can do nothing to earn salvation, but if we choose to do so, we are certainly free to* reject** it* by are own lack of response to God’s love for us :bible1:.
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Matthew 5"Your light must shine before others, that they may see your good deeds and glorify your heavenly Father. Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. . . . Whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven."
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Matthew 7: “Every tree that does not bear good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the fire. So by their fruits you will know them. Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.”
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Matthew 25: "Then they will answer and say, “Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or ill or in prison, and not minister to your needs?’ He will answer them, ‘Amen, I say to you, what you did not do for one of these least ones, you did not do for me.’ And these will go off to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
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Romans 2:5-8, "the just judgment of God, who will repay everyone according to his works: eternal life to those who seek glory, honor, and immortality through* perseverance in good works**, but wrath and fury to those who selfishly disobey the truth and obey wickedness."*
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The Catholic Church understands* best **that **faith is ****a way of living. **Catholics believe everything comes from God.…even the daily grace needed to follow His will rather than our own for the **sake of others. We however, must desire **to do His will. *
*Salvation security dumbs this **reality *down
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SD_Catholic
Guest
???.. I’ve been reading on these forums for quite awhile (that’s mostly what I do here)… this isn’t the first time I’ve seen the argument. I’ve looked into it, searched the truth, studied the different arguments for and against, and came to the conclusion that the Catholic Church has it right. Perhaps you were under the misconception that I had refused to look into it ever.Knowledge of the remote sources of a doctrine is not the same as knowledge & understanding of doctrine itself. The history of the canon of the Mass shows this - there is a genetic development from the beginning until now, so knowledge of the Roman canon as it was in 1474 will not automatically show what the same canon was like in 600 or so. So with doctrines, Catholic & other.
If people don’t understand a doctrine, they have no business criticising it; so their comments can & should be discounted. Discussions of Reformed doctrine might get somewhere, if only Catholics had the elementary good sense to read Reformed accounts of Reformed teaching. Not to do so, is an excellent way to make oneself look foolish, & ignorant, & bigoted: & if ever there were a way not to conduct apologetics, it is that.
Understanding is not the same as agreement - without it, misunderstanding, & ill-feeling, & all the evils that flow from these two, will poison generations to come, when they need do no such thing
Are we so afraid that our own faith will collapse, that we dare not read Calvin, Zanchius, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Puritans, A.A. Hodge, & others, so as to find out what Reformed theologians say about what they believe
It was the ECFs vocation to do those things so that we could be guided by their teachings, how many Protestants do you think follow the teachings the ECFs helped promote… and since you bring them up I hope that Reformed will study some of what they have to say on the subjet.
I have to admit that I don’t have time to learn all the different Protestant views on everything… although I’ve learned quite a few here just by trying to learn more about the Catholic Church… It will take me a life time just to try and understand all that God has revealed to us through his Church… maybe after that I’ll try to learn what all the others believe. Don’t think that I don’t want to know or don’t care, it’s just that I think I should focus more on my own faith and religion than try to learn everyone else’s… atleast for now.
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SD_Catholic
Guest
Jesus is Truth… where was he before the reformers came along?.. Challenged??? been there done that and I’m extremely satisfied with my findings, but thanks for asking
…The reformers had some good points and ideas, but they went way too far… and the mole hill has turned into a mountain
since then
As far as you understanding the CC view on sacraments and infused grace… I have no idea if you understand it, but I would guess no or you wouldn’t be arguing against it.
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Gottle_of_Geer
Guest
I was thinking of those people who ask the same questions - on OSAS, say - as though their objections to it were valid. Often, they aren’t. The problem is that a poor argument for the Petrine Primacy, or for transubstantiation, or whatever it may be, puts the doctrine being advocated in a very poor light Upsetiing a bad argument for OSAS or TULIP or the like does no harm to OSAS or TULIP - it does make the critics of OSAS or TULIP look ignorant, as well as the other things I mentioned. And that is very harmful. It reflects extremely badly on Catholics, & on Catholicism, if we argue against positions that people do not hold. It’s inexcusable.
Don’t people we debate deserve intelligent & well-informed arguments ? Caricaturing people’s beliefs*** when we are perfectly able to avoid* doing so** is laziness; it’s immoral. If that is what passes for intelligent Catholic thinking, we are in dire trouble. Shoddy arguments & specious reasoning should be avoided like the plagues they are. So it’s just as well that our guarantee is not our very limited & sadly fallible reasoning power, but Christ Himself. But to commend our Faith to others, we need to be able to meet questioners where they are, for proclamation is often not enough - & commending what we hold to be true usually entails being able to reason convincingly.You might be surprised - Anglicans have a long & distinguished history of studying & editing the Fathers. To the great advantage of others, such as Catholics. (Which is one reason why dumping on other Churches is not a terribly good idea: they often turn out to have done us a lot of good.)
Whether they study them or not has no bearing on our duty to study doctrines we intend to discuss & do not ourselves hold. We cannot shield our own ignorance behind that of others. Unless you mean the poster 
- but the point is still valid.
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Reformed
Guest
http://www.iwillbuildmychurch.com/images/Cross_Sunset.jpgKnowledge of the remote sources of a doctrine is not the same as knowledge & understanding of doctrine itself. The history of the canon of the Mass shows this - there is a genetic development from the beginning until now, so knowledge of the Roman canon as it was in 1474 will not automatically show what the same canon was like in 600 or so. So with doctrines, Catholic & other.
If people don’t understand a doctrine, they have no business criticising it; so their comments can & should be discounted. Discussions of Reformed doctrine might get somewhere, if only Catholics had the elementary good sense to read Reformed accounts of Reformed teaching. Not to do so, is an excellent way to make oneself look foolish, & ignorant, & bigoted: & if ever there were a way not to conduct apologetics, it is that.
Understanding is not the same as agreement - without it, misunderstanding, & ill-feeling, & all the evils that flow from these two, will poison generations to come, when they need do no such thing
Are we so afraid that our own faith will collapse, that we dare not read Calvin, Zanchius, the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Puritans, A.A. Hodge, & others, so as to find out what Reformed theologians say about what they believe
Thank you for your Christ-like attitude and perspective.
1 Peter 3:15
but in your hearts honor Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to make a defense to anyone who asks you for a reason for the hope that is in you; yet do it with gentleness and respect,
"The saying is trustworthy and deserving of full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, of whom I am the foremost.’’ - 1 Timothy 1:15
“I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” Mark 2:17
“Christianity is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for Saints.” - Tim Keller
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Thing
Guest
If ye can find a moment in between patting each other on the back and answer a few posts you’ve ignored above; Catherine S for example as well as my own, maybe Gottle will answer it for you.
Catherine wants to know, reformed, if you are a sheep or a goat? Thanks.
Catherine wants to know, reformed, if you are a sheep or a goat? Thanks.
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