I got in trouble for kneeling to receive Communion

[Lee_M]

I apologize to Hamburgler for my previous comments on following the youth minister’s wishes. After re-reading your original post, I see where the youth minister said that they could deny you communion. That is not the youth minister’s call to make and youth minister should be reported to the pastor for making that call. Again I apologize for not comprehending all that was originally posted.

 

[hosemonkey]

I tend to side with the Youth Minister. No offense, but it’s suggestive of public righteousness.

That is a dumb thing to say.

 

[Brendan]

Actually, standing or kneeling as instructed by the conference of bishops is the universal norm.

A letter (which does not supercede the GIRM) has recognized the right of any communicant to receive kneeling, but the norm in the US has mentioned they be instructed in the norm of standing.

If you believe that this would indicate that Jesus (who died, rather than defy local custom) would be pleased by kneeling in disregard of the request of a priest or superior, then kneel. It is your right.

Lux

One other thing to keep in mind is that when the bishops of the US voted to adopt 160, they did so specifically as a ‘common practice’, not as a legal norm.

Before the bishops voted on the proposed adaptation of §160, a bishop questioned the meaning of the term “norm”. The chairman of the Bishops Committee on the Liturgy (Archbishop Oscar Lipscomb) said that “norm” is a descriptive term meaning the usual or standard practice, not a legal term. With this clarification, the bishops voted to accept the BCL’s wording of the adaptation.

adoremus.org/0303Q&A.html

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I would personally like to see people stop chewing the Host after receiving whether they stood or knelt.

And FWIW, I think the youth minister was out of line.

I very much agree. Can you imagine accepting Jesus, knowing that it is Him, and chewing Him up!!! Obviously, they are clueless as to the Sacrament they are recieving. Oh, how I wish priests would use the pulpit to teach. We need to pray.

 

[japhy]

By reading the GIRM alone, it can be interpreted as communion will not be denied but the communicant should be catechised on why they should stand in the United States.

I’d like to know just what are the reasons why the USCCB decided on standing as the norm!

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Well, Hamburgler, if this continues to bother you, you should coordinate a meeting including you, the presiding priest and the youth minister. Get it resolved. I can see your point, but also that of the youth minister. I think it’s up to the priest, in this case. You have to remember context. Perhaps it’s simply inappropriate for that setting. Try to be patient and tolerant of others. Good luck. I hope it works out for you.

Explain to me how in God’s world kneeling would be innapropriate for Communion at a Mass with a bunch of teenagers. There aren’t even any geriatric persons to worry about tripping.
The "if it feels good, do it only applies for sinners. If you want to do something that is good and appropriate and reverant that the Pope himself encourages and does, it must be wrong.
There is something wrong with that thinking, Alfred…something dangerously wrong. The Priest or even the Bishop doesn’t have authority over the Pope and Holy See. And according to the Pope and the Holy See, kneeling is permitted.

 

[agapewolf]

I very much agree. Can you imagine accepting Jesus, knowing that it is Him, and chewing Him up!!! Obviously, they are clueless as to the Sacrament they are recieving. Oh, how I wish priests would use the pulpit to teach. We need to pray.

You know the word Jesus used for what we read as “Eat” is actually to “masticate”…which means gnaw on.

Maybe you are clueless to the sacrament you are receiving? I don’t know, but I’m not going to judge you as you just did others who chew. I can’t believe this…now, anyone who moves their teeth together to consume the Blessed sacrament are now clueless to the sacrament they are receiving.

 

[japhy]

Actually, standing or kneeling as instructed by the conference of bishops is the universal norm.

That doesn’t make sense. “Either X or Y is the universal norm”. We have not seen any document from Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments (CDWDS) that says that (other than for health reasons) a person may request to receive Holy Communion standing where the Conference of Bishops has decided that kneeling is the norm. However we have seen documents from the CDWDS that say that Rome’s concession to allow the USCCB to choose standing for the normal posture for receiving Communion was done only under the condition that those who wish to receive kneeling not be bullied.

This would imply that kneeling is the single universal norm (especially since it was the norm for the past 400 years or so) and that standing is permitted so long as there is no prejudice against those who wish to kneel.

A letter (which does not supercede the GIRM) has recognized the right of any communicant to receive kneeling, but the norm in the US has mentioned they be instructed in the norm of standing.

Sorry, but you’re wrong there. What makes you think the letter from the CDWDS doesn’t supercede the GIRM? The CDWDS wrote the GIRM, it is their document to interpret! The CDWDS letters regarding Catholics in the US who wish to kneel to receive Communion are liturgical law.

One letter says:Even where the Congregation has approved of legislation denoting standing as the posture for Holy Communion, in accordance with the adaptations permitted to the Conferences of Bishops by the Institution Generalis Missalis Romani n. 160, paragraph 2, it has done so with the stipulation that communicants who choose to kneel are not to be denied Holy Communion on these grounds.In other words, the CDWDS, which published the GIRM and approved the adapations made by the Conferences of Bishops, has allowed the USCCB to choose standing as its norm while protecting the “rights” (if you will) of those who wish to receive kneeling.

The CDWDS’s letters on this matter stand and must shape our interpretation of the GIRM.

If you believe that this would indicate that Jesus (who died, rather than defy local custom) would be pleased by kneeling in disregard of the request of a priest or superior, then kneel.

What? Jesus preferred to die rather than defy a local custom? I thought it was a bit deeper than that…

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

And this is not judgmental? Do whatever you feel called to do, but do not judge me because I participate in th communion procession, and feel this and following the instructions of the celebrant is what is pleasing to my Lord.

Lux

I concede the point that there may be more reasons, but those are the two that strike me (very fallible) in this debate.

That is why I said it was my opinion. I was doing just the opposite of judging…and I apologize if my statement was not worded well enough to get that point across. Your point is exactly my point. If you want to stand, then stand. If I want to kneel, you should not try to stop me.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Sometimes it is more humble to do as you are told, rather than demand a right.

Lux

I agree, so there should be no problem with letting us kneel.

 

[hamburglar]

UPDATE: Please read all of the post, this issue is really troubling for me.

Today, before Mass, I discussed it with the youth minister. I said that the GIRM says I cannot be denied Holy Communion. He said that wasn’t in there. So I showed him a slip of paper on which I wrote down line 160, which says that I cannot be denied Holy Communion because I wish to kneel. He still said that I was not permitted to kneel.

At this time he took me back to the Narthex to discuss this further. I asked him how he can possibly say that I am not allowed to do this when the Church Herself says I can. He said that the Bishops say I must do what is customary in the Parish, and it is customary in our Parish to stand.

He then said that if I insist on kneeling, he will kick me out of the youth group and forbid me to lead any retreats or chaperone any activities. I thought that was ridiculous. Around this time, I started crying because I couldn’t believe that I was going to be kicked out if I didn’t stand or deny myself Jesus in the Eucharist, the “source and summit” of a Christian life. In a way, I cannot LIVE without Holy Communion.

He said he was really disappointed in me. He said I have problems if I am so attached to a posture instead of focusing on the meaning of the Eucharist. I mentioned that I did not think standing was wrong, just that I personally prefer to kneel to more intimately understand the amazing mystery of the Eucharist.

He also said it causes disruption, and people get confused when they see someone kneel for Holy Communion. He said it puts me at the center of attention. I replied by saying that is not the purpose of my kneeling. He said it disrupts people and takes their focus off the Eucharist and on to me.

I also mentioned that it really disturbed me that he pulled me out of the church after I received. This, in my opinion, was most certainly disrupting. I said that I would have preferred talking in private after Mass instead of taking me away from giving Thanksgiving for the beauty of the Eucharist. He said that I should have thought about doing what the Church says I shouldn’t do. Basically, he felt no regret from that action of yanking me from the Liturgy.

This youth minister is part of the reason that I have discovered my vocation to the Priesthood. Now he says that although he loves me dearly and loves that I want to be a Priest, but I must be flexible with the customs of the Parish that I would be assigned to. He said that he hoped I change before I “get the collar” or I would be a bad Priest. He said people like that are reasons why Catholics are leaving.

This is absolutely heartbreaking to me. Here’s the big issue: He says that if he sees me ever kneel for Communion, whether this week or at a Sunday Mass, he will not allow me to lead any more activities. Now, leading activities and retreats is very important to me, and the salvation of kids souls can be affected by activities. He said maybe this isn’t the right church for me, and that I might change. The problem with this is that my Parish makes up 25% of all participating youth in the Diocese, and we have some great programs.

This is killing me right now, and I am crying as I write this, as I refrained from receiving today and the Eucharist truly is the source of my being.

Note: If you couldn’t tell from the fact that I want to be a Priest, I am a male. I see most people have been referring to me as she…

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Actually, standing or kneeling as instructed by the conference of bishops is the universal norm.

A letter (which does not supercede the GIRM) has recognized the right of any communicant to receive kneeling, but the norm in the US has mentioned they be instructed in the norm of standing.

If you believe that this would indicate that Jesus (who died, rather than defy local custom) would be pleased by kneeling in disregard of the request of a priest or superior, then kneel. It is your right.

Lux

What Jesus are you referring to? They put Him to death becaue He defied the norm. He healed on the Sabbath. He tore up the place in the Synagague where they were using it as a market place. Do I really need to go on? And the letters from the Holy See definitely state that NO ONE should be refused Communion, or even be admonished by the priest or bishop because they are kneeling. It was stated that the norm was allowed by the Holy See as long as it didn’t intefere with anyone who wanted to kneel.
You are not reading the whole thing apparently.

 

[japhy]

Today, before Mass, I discussed it with the youth minister. I said that the GIRM says I cannot be denied Holy Communion. He said that wasn’t in there. So I showed him a slip of paper on which I wrote down line 160, which says that I cannot be denied Holy Communion because I wish to kneel. He still said that I was not permitted to kneel.

He then said that if I insist on kneeling, he will kick me out of the youth group and forbid me to lead any retreats or chaperone any activities. I thought that was ridiculous.

He is out of line. Print out this page and this page (bottom half: second letter) and show them to him. If he still refuses, talk to the priest/pastor.

He said that I should have thought about doing what the Church says I shouldn’t do.

He is wrong.

He said people like that are reasons why Catholics are leaving.

Wow, he is really trying to rip you apart.

He says that if he sees me ever kneel for Communion, whether this week or at a Sunday Mass, he will not allow me to lead any more activities.

Seriously, take this up with the priest/pastor. The youth minister is out of line.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

You know the word Jesus used for what we read as “Eat” is actually to “masticate”…which means gnaw on.

Maybe you are clueless to the sacrament you are receiving? I don’t know, but I’m not going to judge you as you just did others who chew. I can’t believe this…now, anyone who moves their teeth together to consume the Blessed sacrament are now clueless to the sacrament they are receiving.

I stand somewhat corrected again. I was acting self righteously in calling those who chew up the Eucharist clueless. I humbly apologize. I do not know your heart, and I have no right to judge. Once more, I am truly sorry. I thank you for your words.

However, I would hope that you admit that the point I was trying to make is the attitude with which one projects when recieving Jesus. Many people do not seem to know at all Who and What they are recieving, or else I have to believe that they are choosing to be totally ireverant. To go up to Communion in short shorts, flip flop and a sleeveless shirt is showing me that you are unaware. Talking with the person next to you about the football game coming on in 15 minutes is showing me you are unaware. Also, those who “chomp” like It is a piece of gum while continuing with the conversation is the same.

I hope you realize that this is the point I was trying to make. I am not standing in judgement of these people’s hearts either. That is why I say that we need to pray that the Priests will begin to teach more about the basics from the pulpit.

 

[childofmary1143]

UPDATE: Please read all of the post, this issue is really troubling for me.

Today, before Mass, I discussed it with the youth minister. I said that the GIRM says I cannot be denied Holy Communion. He said that wasn’t in there. So I showed him a slip of paper on which I wrote down line 160, which says that I cannot be denied Holy Communion because I wish to kneel. He still said that I was not permitted to kneel.

At this time he took me back to the Narthex to discuss this further. I asked him how he can possibly say that I am not allowed to do this when the Church Herself says I can. He said that the Bishops say I must do what is customary in the Parish, and it is customary in our Parish to stand.

He then said that if I insist on kneeling, he will kick me out of the youth group and forbid me to lead any retreats or chaperone any activities. I thought that was ridiculous. Around this time, I started crying because I couldn’t believe that I was going to be kicked out if I didn’t stand or deny myself Jesus in the Eucharist, the “source and summit” of a Christian life. In a way, I cannot LIVE without Holy Communion.

He said he was really disappointed in me. He said I have problems if I am so attached to a posture instead of focusing on the meaning of the Eucharist. I mentioned that I did not think standing was wrong, just that I personally prefer to kneel to more intimately understand the amazing mystery of the Eucharist.

He also said it causes disruption, and people get confused when they see someone kneel for Holy Communion. He said it puts me at the center of attention. I replied by saying that is not the purpose of my kneeling. He said it disrupts people and takes their focus off the Eucharist and on to me.

I also mentioned that it really disturbed me that he pulled me out of the church after I received. This, in my opinion, was most certainly disrupting. I said that I would have preferred talking in private after Mass instead of taking me away from giving Thanksgiving for the beauty of the Eucharist. He said that I should have thought about doing what the Church says I shouldn’t do. Basically, he felt no regret from that action of yanking me from the Liturgy.

This youth minister is part of the reason that I have discovered my vocation to the Priesthood. Now he says that although he loves me dearly and loves that I want to be a Priest, but I must be flexible with the customs of the Parish that I would be assigned to. He said that he hoped I change before I “get the collar” or I would be a bad Priest. He said people like that are reasons why Catholics are leaving.

This is absolutely heartbreaking to me. Here’s the big issue: He says that if he sees me ever kneel for Communion, whether this week or at a Sunday Mass, he will not allow me to lead any more activities. Now, leading activities and retreats is very important to me, and the salvation of kids souls can be affected by activities. He said maybe this isn’t the right church for me, and that I might change. The problem with this is that my Parish makes up 25% of all participating youth in the Diocese, and we have some great programs.

This is killing me right now, and I am crying as I write this, as I refrained from receiving today and the Eucharist truly is the source of my being.

Note: If you couldn’t tell from the fact that I want to be a Priest, I am a male. I see most people have been referring to me as she…

Dear ‘hamburglar’,

First off, I apologise for “following the crowd” and referring you as a female.

Secondly, I am so utterly aghast at that “Youth Minister” I couldn’t read all your story until I had composed myself.

I think its high time that the Priest, Bishop, and/or the CDWDS be brought into this. Is it possible you can tell us the name of your parish and city in which you live in?

 

[agapewolf]

I stand somewhat corrected again. I was acting self righteously in calling those who chew up the Eucharist clueless. I humbly apologize. I do not know your heart, and I have no right to judge. Once more, I am truly sorry. I thank you for your words.

However, I would hope that you admit that the point I was trying to make is the attitude with which one projects when recieving Jesus. Many people do not seem to know at all Who and What they are recieving, or else I have to believe that they are choosing to be totally ireverant. To go up to Communion in short shorts, flip flop and a sleeveless shirt is showing me that you are unaware. Talking with the person next to you about the football game coming on in 15 minutes is showing me you are unaware. Also, those who “chomp” like It is a piece of gum while continuing with the conversation is the same.

I hope you realize that this is the point I was trying to make. I am not standing in judgement of these people’s hearts either. That is why I say that we need to pray that the Priests will begin to teach more about the basics from the pulpit.

I completely agree with you. As a musician at a church, I’m tired of seeing countless weddings and funerals with girls dressed as hoochies with cleavage, grabbing the sacrament out of the priests hands and then giggling on the way back. I’m frustrated with lack of catechesis and irreverence too.

I get what you are trying to say.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

UPDATE: Please read all of the post, this issue is really troubling for me.

Today, before Mass, I discussed it with the youth minister. I said that the GIRM says I cannot be denied Holy Communion. He said that wasn’t in there. So I showed him a slip of paper on which I wrote down line 160, which says that I cannot be denied Holy Communion because I wish to kneel. He still said that I was not permitted to kneel.

At this time he took me back to the Narthex to discuss this further. I asked him how he can possibly say that I am not allowed to do this when the Church Herself says I can. He said that the Bishops say I must do what is customary in the Parish, and it is customary in our Parish to stand.

He then said that if I insist on kneeling, he will kick me out of the youth group and forbid me to lead any retreats or chaperone any activities. I thought that was ridiculous. Around this time, I started crying because I couldn’t believe that I was going to be kicked out if I didn’t stand or deny myself Jesus in the Eucharist, the “source and summit” of a Christian life. In a way, I cannot LIVE without Holy Communion.

He said he was really disappointed in me. He said I have problems if I am so attached to a posture instead of focusing on the meaning of the Eucharist. I mentioned that I did not think standing was wrong, just that I personally prefer to kneel to more intimately understand the amazing mystery of the Eucharist.

He also said it causes disruption, and people get confused when they see someone kneel for Holy Communion. He said it puts me at the center of attention. I replied by saying that is not the purpose of my kneeling. He said it disrupts people and takes their focus off the Eucharist and on to me.

I also mentioned that it really disturbed me that he pulled me out of the church after I received. This, in my opinion, was most certainly disrupting. I said that I would have preferred talking in private after Mass instead of taking me away from giving Thanksgiving for the beauty of the Eucharist. He said that I should have thought about doing what the Church says I shouldn’t do. Basically, he felt no regret from that action of yanking me from the Liturgy.

This youth minister is part of the reason that I have discovered my vocation to the Priesthood. Now he says that although he loves me dearly and loves that I want to be a Priest, but I must be flexible with the customs of the Parish that I would be assigned to. He said that he hoped I change before I “get the collar” or I would be a bad Priest. He said people like that are reasons why Catholics are leaving.

This is absolutely heartbreaking to me. Here’s the big issue: He says that if he sees me ever kneel for Communion, whether this week or at a Sunday Mass, he will not allow me to lead any more activities. Now, leading activities and retreats is very important to me, and the salvation of kids souls can be affected by activities. He said maybe this isn’t the right church for me, and that I might change. The problem with this is that my Parish makes up 25% of all participating youth in the Diocese, and we have some great programs.

This is killing me right now, and I am crying as I write this, as I refrained from receiving today and the Eucharist truly is the source of my being.

Note: If you couldn’t tell from the fact that I want to be a Priest, I am a male. I see most people have been referring to me as she…

What does your priest say. Take all of this to him. Tell him exactly what the youth minister did and threatened to do. If you get nowhere with that, take it to the Bishop. If you get nowhere with that…take it to Rome. Rome will listen, as has been pointed out in this thread. You are not just a member of some club to them, you are an individual beloved sheep. I know people who this has worked for. And there are people here who can lead you in those steps.
Remember, you are not alone. I am hurting for you. This youth minister is not the end all of your right to recieve in a kneeling position. It isn’t going to be easy. This is just showing you how very much Jesus is depending on you to fight for Him. This is a battle.

 

[Margarite]

For the past year or so, I have been kneeling to receive Communion. I have not been told not to, although it takes some of the EMHC’s by surprise sometimes.

Anyway, this week the high-schoolers in the youth group are doing “Service Week” where we volunteer in the local community. We have College kids chaperone, as well as parent volunteers. I am one of the college chaperones.

We were at Mass today, and like usual, I knelt to receive Communion. As I was walking back to my seat, the youth minister asked to see me. He said that I was not allowed to kneel and that “we don’t do that here.” I stated that the documents say the one cannot be denied Communion because of kneeling, and he said that is not true. (By the way, GIRM 160 DOES in fact say that.) He made it seem like I was “breaking the rules.” He explained that he wasn’t criticizing me, he said that it simply was not allowed and didn’t want a scene to occur. I can somewhat understand the part about the scene.

Now, I realize that the norm is standing. But the GIRM does in fact say that I cannot be denied Communion because I am kneeling. What should I do about this?

When my family first moved to Las Vegas, we went to a parish where the priest during the sermon asked everyone not to kneel when receiving Holy Communion. Well, I listened to his sermon, but I didn’t hear that part and I was the first in my family to receive HC so I knelt. After HC the priest said “Everyone did a good job at not kneeling, except one young lady who was too proud to listen to her pastor!” OMG I went redder than this and was so mad that the priest would bring this up so publically and embarassed that I hadn’t heard what he had said about it during his sermon (he isn’t a great speaker and I drifted in and out). Now it is something to look back on and laugh about.

But as far as your situation is, look at the pope recently. He has MADE everyone who receives HC from him kneel and they have to receive on the tongue. Priests and EMHC should follow the pope’s example by at least supporting or encouraging this way of receiving Our Lord which is much better than standing and on the hand. The Vatican has actually been considering taking away the privilege of receiving on the hand because of the many abuses. What I would do is find all the info you can supporting your stance and either e-mail it or print it and mail it to that EMHC and get a receipt that he did receive it. Also, you should contact the priest.

I’ll say my rosary with you in mind tonight! May Our Lady guide you.

PS: Good job for standing up for the faith and for kneeling! Where are you going to college?

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

What Jesus are you referring to? They put Him to death becaue He defied the norm. He healed on the Sabbath. He tore up the place in the Synagague where they were using it as a market place. Do I really need to go on?

No, you don’t…
Is53:7

Though he was harshly treated, he submitted and opened not his mouth; Like a lamb led to the slaughter or a sheep before the shearers, he was silent and opened not his mouth.

And the letters from the Holy See definitely state that NO ONE should be refused Communion, or even be admonished by the priest or bishop because they are kneeling. It was stated that the norm was allowed by the Holy See as long as it didn’t intefere with anyone who wanted to kneel.
You are not reading the whole thing apparently

I did read the whole thing–you do not agree with my reasoning.
This is fine. Kneel, if you feel this is more pleasing to Jesus than subjecting your will to the bishop or Priest celebrant.

Lux

 

[belgianwaffles9]

I agree, I used to be an EMHC…I am now a music director and see 2 lines receive all the time. I know there is irreverance. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist…but the person I was talking to about this in this thread wrote that it is good for people to see him kneel so they can see some giving due reverence, as if those receiving in the hand or standing do not.

This is wrong.

Most Catholics who receive communion receive irreverently, and most probably have not gone to confession in years or believe in transubstantiation, not to mention other basic tenets of faith.

So your employer has asked you to receive communion according to the norms in the United States:

1. The faithful are not permitted to take the consecrated bread or the sacred chalice by themselves and, still less, to hand them from one to another. The norm for reception of Holy Communion in the dioceses of the United States is standing. Communicants should not be denied Holy Communion because they kneel. Rather, such instances should be addressed pastorally, by providing the faithful with proper catechesis on the reasons for this norm.

That seems pretty simple to me.

Thoughts that run through my mind at this point include something about the need for humility in following what our bishops have asked of us…something about setting an example for the youth you work with (as in “I’ll obey” versus “I’m doing it my own way”)…something about how if you have so little respect for your boss perhaps you should find another job.

If you are at a papal Mass and receive from the Pope, then do it his way. That would also be humble obedience.

First of all, the Popes overrule the bishops. The whole “local bishops conference” thing is a ridiculous power ploy used by liberals to fight Rome.

Not to mention, whatever the norm of the united states may be, the norm of the CHURCH is kneeling, on the tongue. Anything else is only an indult, an “exception.” Quite simply, in the light of Church Tradition and Church law, the us bishops are wrong to promote this form, and Rome should not tolerate it any longer.