I got in trouble for kneeling to receive Communion

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

Taking and fighting for the side of the right has always been difficult, as Jesus is the Perfect Example of this. Just as were those in the early Church who died rather than give in to the wrong side. The history of the Roman Catholic Church is filled with the wrongs done by others as we are striving to do what is right in the eyes of God.

Are you suggesting that those advocating uniformity of posture are to be likened to those who slaughtered the early martyrs???

I pray I never see the Parish you find acceptable.

Lux

 

[ethelzguy]

You have really crossed the line here.

Standing is NOT giving up reverence. This is just the attitude which causes people to believe that kneelers are just trying to say," Look at me–I am so much more reverent than you"

Lux

BINGO !

 

[japhy]

Could this be interpreted as: if the gesture of reverence is not made (visibly) by the communicant - he/she then could/should be denied?

I doubt any minister of Holy Communion would be so brash as to deny Communion to a person who they didn’t see make the sign of reverence. The sign of reverence isn’t a “cue” or “display” for the minister’s good, it’s for the good of the communicant: it is a physical, external display of the piety and reverence they should have (as a Catholic) for the Blessed Sacrament.

 

[japhy]

“kneeling or standing, as established by the Conference of Bishops”

How many posting here realize what the universal norm actually states

I don’t know, but I do know that pretty much everyone posting in this thread has, by now, seen the CDWDS’s letters that state that the decision of a Conference of Bishops to establish standing as their diocese’s norm is approved by the CDWDS under the stipulation that those who wish to continue receiving kneeling are not prohibited from doing so nor treated as disobedient.

Again, this shapes our understanding of the “universal norm”, because the selection of “standing” is only permitted if the Bishops agree not to harass those who wish to receive while kneeling.

Do you see what I’m getting at?

 

[Michael_Neal]

yea but it doesn’t matter, they won’t stop until they force us to be like them. They will liken us to their 87 year aunt that they can’t stand, then accuse us of being rigid and mean spirited LOL

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Exactly right, we work up the chain of command. In the same way, if you complain to the Vatican, they’re going to want to know that you contacted your bishop prior to contacting them.

You bring up an excellent point, something else that it would be good for the OP to consider: It may well be that, at this point, the relationship will already be strained. Of course, this is something none of us can answer. And the OP would have to ask himself if that strain would be the same or worse if he made an issue of this.

Many people seem to be arguing as though the OP’s YM is trying to make his own opinion binding on everyone. I think that’s a bit of an unfair presumption. It seems that the YM (however poorly and callously he has gone about it) is trying to maintain what is in the GIRM (and perhaps what he was taught by the pastor). Not everyone knows about the norms in other countries or obscure letters from the CDWDS (which I couldn’t even find on the official Vatican website). I’m not trying to denigrate these things, but we cannot assume that everyone has the same knowledge of all the same Church statements that we do.

I can easily understand. But the OP brought him a copy of the letter, and the youth minister totally denied it,and demanded obedience to himself. So I am pretty sure that it wasn’t just a matter of “I didn’t know”. It was, you do it the way I say it, or hit the road. There was no charity. And there wasn’t even an “I’ll check into it, do you have more information that I can look at.” It was a matter of, “HOW DARE YOU EVEN THINK TO GAINSAY WHAT I COMMAND?” If that wasn’t his attitude, why did he make the threats and say that he needed to change before becoming a priest or be a bad priest? It didn’t just lack charity, it was overbearing and threatening. And the youth minister did not mention the priest or what the priest thinks or says about it. And the OP has been recieving this way for a year. Surely the priest had time to talk to him about it if it is an issue to himself. It obviously is not. It is an issue to the youth minister.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Yes. Someone above the chain of command of the YM (be it the Priest, Bishop or Vatican) fire the YM and hire the OP as the new YM or get someone who is obedient to the teachings of our faith to work with the OP.

If anybody deserves to be fired it should be the YM. After the 2nd meeting where the YM was adamant about his position, he removed **any reasonable **possibility of him staying on.

:yup: :clapping:

 

[childofmary1143]

I’ve posted a lot on here but I have to make an observation:

It seems to me that people here who are supporting the YM are giving me the impression that people who like to kneel for Communion:

Are doing it for completely show reasons
Condemning those who stand
Attention seekers

I think that is sinful to make rash judgments about people you really know nothing about and since you aren’t God how can you judge what is in another’s heart?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Okay, that would likely be the pastor (unless maybe there is a DRE to whom the YM reports). The bishop would not intervene and ask for the YM to be fired unless this was just one example in a long, long pattern of well-documented bad behavior. The Vatican would only intervene to say that the OP can’t be denied Communion. As far as I know, it would be unprecedented that the Vatican would step in over personnel issues at an individual parish. If they were to start such practices, I’d much rather them start with the Theology departments of certain Catholic Colleges, and diocesan chancery buildings!

You do raise a legitimate question the OP can ask himself: How likely is it that the pastor would fire the YM over this? Again, unless this was just one example in a long string of well-documented, bad behavior, it seems unlikely that the pastor would fire the YM over this. But I suppose it’s possible.

The Vatican has and I believe would again step up to the plate and order the Bishop to order the Priest to order the youth minister to stop his behaviour or be fired. That is one of the reasons for the Magisterium of the Church, and that particular office. In order to stop the practice of either teaching or behaving in the wrong way in the Church. The youth minister is totally in the wrong in this situation, and he needs to be totally corrected, and he needs to conform to Rome, or leave.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

I would bring it up with the Priest, if the Priest agrees with the YM I would go to another parish and apply to a seminary in another diocese where they won’t chastise you for being traditional.

Use this as an opportunity to see what you getting into with your diocese, you could end up having a miserable time as a priest if this is how your Bishop thinks.

If I were to consider being a priest I would absolutely go to a new diocese, my Pastor is very good, but my Bishop is [edited].

See? There are other options. But I would still write a letter to all of the parents and teenagers involved in the group. And I would definitely include all of the information you have given to us, along with an enclosed copy of the letter from Rome.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

[Edited]

Bottom line. The OP must decide whether it’s worth the price to be “right”.

If being “right” matters above all else, then by all means pursue it to whatever end that might be.

If it’s more important to retain the position within the youth program, then perhaps the OP should choose another battle.

It is easy for an unattached person on a keyboard in cyberspace to get all riled up in self-righteous indignation, even if they are 100% in the right…because they don’t have to live with the consequences.

This is true, it is easier for us. But many of us have been attacked and had to engage in similar battles. We are not speaking of that which we have no experience with. Right is just right. There were some who thought that the American Colonists should have just accepted what England was doing to them. It was very difficult for the men and boys of the Americas to leave their families to fight against a tyrant. It was, however, the correct thing to do, and most worthy of the fight.
Fighting for Jesus and against the tyranny of those (even within the Church) who deny us our rights is also a fight which needs to be addressed and fought if necessary to end the tyranny.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

The OP’s “job” ends this week anyway.

This is a mute point. Except for this week, he is a volunteer.

The point is not mute as even as a volunteer the OP was told that he would not be able to lead retreats or be a part of the group any longer.
And whether this job is over or not, the youth minister needs to be corrected firmly so that he is not teaching fallacy or attempting to force others to stand when it is totally legal for them to kneel. The attitude of the youth minister is so strong that this is not the first, and certainly not the last time (if he is not corrected) that he would try to use what little authority he has to force others to comply with HIS OWN wishes, which are against what Rome demands.

 

[MrS]

The point is not mute as even as a volunteer the OP was told that he would not be able to lead retreats or be a part of the group any longer.
And whether this job is over or not, the youth minister needs to be corrected firmly so that he is not teaching fallacy or attempting to force others to stand when it is totally legal for them to kneel. The attitude of the youth minister is so strong that this is not the first, and certainly not the last time (if he is not corrected) that he would try to use what little authority he has to force others to comply with HIS OWN wishes, which are against what Rome demands.

Yoiu are right… however I was refering to his eminent firing, or perhaps being allowed to be hired for other projects. The Y/D has made his position rather clear… hamburgler is cooked…

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

You have really crossed the line here.

Standing is NOT giving up reverence. This is just the attitude which causes people to believe that kneelers are just trying to say," Look at me–I am so much more reverent than you"

Lux

The line was crossed by those who have a problem with anyone showing reverance by kneeling. If you feel that you are showing reverence…which I never said was irreverant…fine. Just don’t tell me that my need to kneel to show reverence for Jesus is unacceptable. I don’t feel that I am showing nearly the reverance I am called to show if I am standing. That doesn’t mean that you feel that way. I am saying that I have run across others who claim that my kneeling is somehow putting them in a bad light. I am stating that this is not my problem. They have no right to tell me not to kneel.

 

[Lux_et_Tenebrae]

I’ve posted a lot on here but I have to make an observation:

It seems to me that people here who are supporting the YM are giving me the impression that people who like to kneel for Communion:

Are doing it for completely show reasons
Condemning those who stand
Attention seekers

I think that is sinful to make rash judgments about people you really know nothing about and since you aren’t God how can you judge what is in another’s heart?

And what exactly would be evident after claims to be more reverent than those who stand?

or deciding that the rest of the congregation is less reverent because they respect the desire of the celebrant for a uniform posture, and a solemn Communion procession?

Really, who is judging whom?

Lux

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

Canada is the opposite of a scary place…it is a great society, peaceful people, hockey and universal health care.

That is why a family who chose to kneel, was denied communion, and went back to the pew was arrested??? It went all the way up to the Canada Supreme Court before someone said that they had not been disturbing the peace.
That doesn’t sound like a great society, or peaceful people. Hockey is a violent sport, and if even citizens of Canada aren’t garaunteed health coverage for all illnesses.

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

How many? Self righteous and judgemental is not what I call reverent. I feel the communion procession is far more reverent than some of the behavior described here (including lobbying against a person in authority because they disagree with you)
Lux

We are not lobbying against this youth minister because he doesn’t agree with us. We are lobbying against this youth minister because according to ROME he is totally wrong, and he is using his authority to deny the right of the OP to kneel…threatening the loss of a job and all other opportunities that have been offered in the past to the OP concerning the youth…if he does not obey the youth minister in matters of the FAITH.

And, just like I cannot judge your heart when you stand in line for Holy Communion, you cannot rightly judge me when I kneel.

I am not being self righteous. You are the one trying to tell me to stand rather than kneel. I am not trying to force you to kneel. So, who is judging who?

 

[Jesus_N_Cherie]

How many? Self righteous and judgemental is not what I call reverent. I feel the communion procession is far more reverent than some of the behavior described here (including lobbying against a person in authority because they disagree with you)
Lux

I can count 1 right off of the top of my head, although I could rightly include another one. The first one was where I was denied Jesus because I was on my knees, and at the other one, I was told not to kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer.

 

[ethelzguy]

See? There are other options. But I would still write a letter to all of the parents and teenagers involved in the group. And I would definitely include all of the information you have given to us, along with an enclosed copy of the letter from Rome.

Cherie,

It is easy to sit at a keyboard, spouting off dire opinions about what other people should do in retribution for being wronged.

The problem is, (back to the real world of the OP), every action has a reaction. Every action elicts a response.

The reaction…good or bad, right or wrong, fair or unfair, may be a price that the OP is not willing to pay, just for the sake of “being right on this one”.

There will always be other fish to fry, and battle lines to be drawn. My advice would be…“Don’t burn up your spiritual capital on this issue, unless you really think it will be worth it in the end.”

Is it worth derailing a possible vocation, just to show up someone who made an incorrect assertion?

 

[po18guy]

What’s a “youth minister”? It’s not the priest. Ask the priest and ignore everyone else.

Christ’s peace.