I Have a Question....

[live63]

I have a very important question to ask all of you RCs and other denominations. Since this is my first post, I will take it easy on you. But I want to be very clear with this question. As I know the response I will get and I know the answer.

Before you answer, think carefully because this is not a trick question.

After I gage the responses I will follow up with an explanation to my querry.
Yes I am new to this site and no I am not a Catholic. As a matter of fact I belong to no church or religion. I will explain later if given the opportunity.

My Question is…
How do YOU know there is a GOD?

My name is David (King) John (The Baptist) Kraehling as my mother named me.

 

[warpspeedpetey]

I have a very important question to ask all of you RCs and other denominations. Since this is my first post, I will take it easy on you. But I want to be very clear with this question. As I know the response I will get and I know the answer.

Before you answer, think carefully because this is not a trick question.

After I gage the responses I will follow up with an explanation to my querry.
Yes I am new to this site and no I am not a Catholic. As a matter of fact I belong to no church or religion. I will explain later if given the opportunity.

My Question is…
How do YOU know there is a GOD?

My name is David (King) John (The Baptist) Kraehling as my mother named me.

ontological, cosmological, teleological and other arguments. more thean a few dozen books written by different people and places, over the course of several millenia, describing essentially the same relationship of men and G-d. that should be enough to start with.

 

[Betterave]

My mother told me that God exists when I was a young boy. I believed her. Over the years the truth of this belief has developed with me, into its current more or less coherent state relative to my experience of the world: in prayer, worship, study and reflection - philosophy, history, anthropology, psychology, morals, saints, popes, sinners, injustice, evil, hope, love, etc. I think my belief is true and justified within this total context - so I could say this is how I know that God exists, although I don’t generally have much use for such ‘dogmatic’ assertions. (People don’t like dogmatic assertions.) I’m much more intellectually oriented than most, but I think a general description similar to the preceding applies to most people’s knowledge of God (details vary obviously).

 

[James_S_Saint]

How do YOU know there is a GOD?

Someone ask me if I believed that the Jesus was Son of God. I realized that I didn’t even know what a “god” was much less a “Son of The God”. So, without realizing it at the time, I asked the “Holy Spirit” and got all of the answers I requested and have been getting them ever since in that same way.

Now after you explain your answer, I might tell you what that actually means instead of what you thought I said.

 

[lil_flower_luv]

I know there is a God because I have been taught to know there is a God ever since I was a baby. But now, I can actually say I know God is real because He is in my Heart. I have felt Him there. And what’s more? I feel His presence everywhere I go. I see Him in the people I meet. How empty I would be without Him! My only goal in this life is to know Him, love Him, and serve Him. By doing this, I love and serve others, I praise Him with every breath I breathe in and out, and I try not to sin. In Him I have eternal life…I owe Him everything. So, in short, someone will have a hard time of convincing me there isn’t a God.

 

[Dtmccameron]

I know there is a God as all of existance screams out proclaiming Him! Having looked upon the order of things, and the fundamental truths that all honest pagans know (especially upon the nature of sacrifice, purity, life and death), I found that all things fit together perfectly, all proclaiming His glorious Truth. That pure Perfection, that ultimate Goodness, that all consuming Love, all these things are attested to by the very world about me! The earth, the trees, the beasts, even the plaster on the walls screams out to Him. There is not a single contradiction within His Truth.

 

[Mike_Dye]

Well live63, so far I see no response from you. I am sure you have polished answers against proof of the existence of God regarding the argument from Design, and the First Cause argument, or the argument of Conscience, or History, or Pascal’s wager. or the list that goes on and on that presents valid proof of the probability of Gods existence.
The first responders to your post on this site have just said that they know what they know because of the grace of the Holy Spirit and because of what they have been taught.
Sorry my friend but your new age nonsense will have no effect whatsoever here. May the Earth fairies and mother goddesses be with you and all of your followers now and until you can clear your head Mike Dye

 

[liquidpele]

… I don’t? “know” is a pretty specific word to use too… “knowing” and “believing” are very different. Unless God spoke directly to someone, I’m pretty sure they don’t “know” - and even then it might be schizophrenia. And what is “new age” ?

 

[Katholish]

I suppose for me personally, my knowledge of God largely comes from reflection on the question “Why is there something rather than nothing?”. Proceeding from the premises that being cannot come from complete non-being, I can only conclude that there has always been something, and the eternal presence of something is a necessary concept for their being anything currently.

While an infinite chain of temporal causes might not be inconceivable, it doesn’t account for the question of why is there something rather than nothing, and logically, I can only conclude that being itself must be something originating outside of the temporal order of things. This eternal “something” or “being-ness” is the basis for my concept and knowledge of God.

I will grant, however, that I was first introduced to the concept not through a purely logical process but received it as part of my cultural upbringing.

 

[piejesu]

How do you know there isn’t a God?

It all comes by grace my friend.

*All things have been delivered to me by my Father; and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and any one to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. Mat. 11:27
*

 

[Thales]

I’m congruent with Liquidpele, “know” is a very strong and somewhat ambiguous term. I believe very strongly that God exists for many of the same reasons others have said. However, God is not knowable through human reason alone. We can have a reasonable faith in the existence of God but perfect knowledge of His existence , in this life, is not possible.

You’ve created intrigue with your initial post, hope to hear your response soon.

 

[Katholish]

I’m congruent with Liquidpele, “know” is a very strong and somewhat ambiguous term. I believe very strongly that God exists for many of the same reasons others have said. However, God is not knowable through human reason alone. We can have a reasonable faith in the existence of God but perfect knowledge of His existence , in this life, is not possible.

You’ve created intrigue with your initial post, hope to hear your response soon.

The question has to do with God’s existence, not a perfect knowledge of His Nature.

That being said, it is the *de fide *teaching of the Catholic Church that the existence of God can be known with certainty by reason alone.

 

[liquidpele]

The question has to do with God’s existence, not a perfect knowledge of His Nature.

That being said, it is the *de fide *teaching of the Catholic Church that the existence of God can be known with certainty by reason alone.

Oh? Well I’d love to hear this bulletproof reasoning then.

 

[Betterave]

Oh? Well I’d love to hear this bulletproof reasoning then.

This is coming up a lot isn’t it? The church teaches (reason teaches too, I would say) that reason is a situated, fallible human faculty, not that it is bulletproof. The very possibility of coming to know the truth, whether by reason or otherwise, is recognized as being largely in the hands of luck (this, again, is simply a reasonable way to think about the epistemic situation of human beings, it’s not some silly dogma). We can think of a transcendent truth and reason, but obviously there is no a priori necessity that the subjective reason of a finite human being will in fact, in its particular factical situation, be able to apprehend what is objectively reasonable. Maybe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the closest we could come, conceptually, to a bulletproof vest protecting us from the vagaries of unreason (just a simplistic suggestion for thinking about it - there may be more naturalistic means too, which are also effective to some degree).

 

[Thales]

The question has to do with God’s existence, not a perfect knowledge of His Nature.

That being said, it is the *de fide *teaching of the Catholic Church that the existence of God can be known with certainty by reason alone.

You are right Katholish!

Catechism of the Catholic Church Part 1. Chapter 1. Section III.
36 “Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church Part 1. Chapter 1. In Brief
46 When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arrive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything.

 

[liquidpele]

This is coming up a lot isn’t it? The church teaches (reason teaches too, I would say) that reason is a situated, fallible human faculty, not that it is bulletproof. The very possibility of coming to know the truth, whether by reason or otherwise, is recognized as being largely in the hands of luck (this, again, is simply a reasonable way to think about the epistemic situation of human beings, it’s not some silly dogma). We can think of a transcendent truth and reason, but obviously there is no a priori necessity that the subjective reason of a finite human being will in fact, in its particular factical situation, be able to apprehend what is objectively reasonable. Maybe the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is the closest we could come, conceptually, to a bulletproof vest protecting us from the vagaries of unreason (just a simplistic suggestion for thinking about it - there may be more naturalistic means too, which are also effective to some degree).

So what you essentially just said is that you can reason that God exists if we lower the bar for what we consider reason. You said that it can be “known with certainty by reason alone” but this personalized reasoning that you’re bringing up has no certainty due to the “fallible human faculty” as you put it. Thus, the reasoning you’re referencing is simply belief.

 

[liquidpele]

You are right Katholish!

Catechism of the Catholic Church Part 1. Chapter 1. Section III.
36 “Our holy mother, the Church, holds and teaches that God, the first principle and last end of all things, can be known with certainty from the created world by the natural light of human reason.”

Catechism of the Catholic Church Part 1. Chapter 1. In Brief
46 When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arrive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything.

Group’s documents assert that the group is right. News at 11.

 

[Alindawyl]

I was born and raised Catholic but stopped practicing my faith over 14 years ago in favor of… nothing. Pride strikes again

A few years ago I grew tired of political debates and decided to give religious debates a try. Due to a willingness to read and argue with what I didn’t realize at the time was an open heart searching for truth, I successfully argued myself right back into the Church. No flashy spiritual experiences, no “I believe!” moment, no divine revelation. Just a gradual process of reasoning resulting in “God makes sense and not God does not make sense”.

Light of human reason indeed.

 

[Katholish]

Liquidpele,

In making dogmatic definitions, the Church acknowledges a distinction between the sciences of philosophy and theology. There are certain areas in which aspects of philosophy have a direct bearing upon Theology, and hence the Church sometimes makes definitions which directly effect philosophy, however, it largely has to do with checking philosophical conclusions against what has been revealed, thus the Church’s teachings on philosophy usually pertain to philosophical conclusions as opposed to entire philosophical processes or premises.

In the case of knowledge of God’s existence, the Church declares that He can be known from reason because this is mentioned in the New Testament. Which of the proofs suggested by dozens of philosophers throughout history notably St. Thomas Aquinas are correct and solid and which are not entirely valid is not taken up by the Church’s magisterium.

That only explains the Church’s dogmatic definition, however that God can be proven from reason alone can then be argued from a purely philosophical perspective, which I imagine is our purpose here in the philosophy forum.

That being said, I think comments made by Betterave might have been slightly confusing. A philosophical proof of God’s existence would be objectively true and valid, however, because it is a logical proof and not an empirical proof, it might not be as easy for some to “see” the objective truth of such a philosophical proof. Likewise, many other truths of philosophy are the same way, which is way there is a larger diversity of positions in philosophy than there is in chemistry or physics.

 

[James_S_Saint]

So what you essentially just said is that you can reason that God exists if we lower the bar for what we consider reason. You said that it can be “known with certainty by reason alone” but this personalized reasoning that you’re bringing up has no certainty due to the “fallible human faculty” as you put it. Thus, the reasoning you’re referencing is simply belief.

I don’t think that is what was said.

Reasoning CAN bring you to the “right” conclusion, but there is no guarantee that you can use your particular reasoning skills well enough to do that.

This is an admission that reasoning CAN work, but might not for every person (usually doesn’t).

Reasoning is only one way to achieve belief and thus no, reasoning does not equate to belief.