I Have a Question....

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Well live63, so far I see no response from you. I am sure you have polished answers against proof of the existence of God regarding the argument from Design, and the First Cause argument, or the argument of Conscience, or History, or Pascal’s wager. or the list that goes on and on that presents valid proof of the probability of Gods existence.
The first responders to your post on this site have just said that they know what they know because of the grace of the Holy Spirit and because of what they have been taught.
Sorry my friend but your new age nonsense will have no effect whatsoever here. May the Earth fairies and mother goddesses be with you and all of your followers now and until you can clear your head Mike Dye
First I want to thank those of you who have responded to my question. After leaving the site last night, I perused the other posts and found that I am not the only person to pose such a question. What I found very interesting is the way in which the question was asked.
Mike I chose to reply to your post because of your presentation.
I do not have polished answers and I am not on any kick to alter anyones way of thinking. I am merely asking people to really look inside and answer the question of whether or not you know if there is a God. Although some of the responses to my question have been interesting and some (as I will call) excuses have been made. I found one of the respondants to know the true answer.
I have asked this question over the years and I’m astonished by the replies I get. You see alot of people say they know there’s a God but skirt around the issue of how they know. I suggest you read the responses again of other respondants to see my point.
Just because someone tells you there’s a God does not make you believe there’s a God. You know there’s a God because… (sorry I can’t say just yet as I still have more replies to answer to).
As for the “New Age” notation for my religion. I repeat, that I BELIEVE and Know God and all that he represents, But my experiences growing up in a strict religious family and seeing what I have seen over the years in respect to the various churches, I remain religion (Church) free.
Yes you can and will say what you will about me. But nothing you say can detract from what I know and who I am.
Dave:)

I will complete this response later.
 
So what you essentially just said is that you can reason that God exists if we lower the bar for what we consider reason. You said that it can be “known with certainty by reason alone” but this personalized reasoning that you’re bringing up has no certainty due to the “fallible human faculty” as you put it. Thus, the reasoning you’re referencing is simply belief.
Hi liquidpele, all,

I don’t think that that is what Dave is saying. He is pointing out that reason isn’t best thought of as a transcendental faculty that allows humans to step outside of their historical context (how exactly would that work?), but is instead the product of thousands of years of biological and cultural evolution that only operates as a practice among historically situated human beings. There is no test for what is Reasonable that could stand apart from some such context.

At the same time, reasoning does not just reduce to belief. Reasoning is the practice of justifying beliefs which is always done within a cultural context. But part of that practice involves questioning the assumptions that we use to justify beliefs for what we mean by “reasonable.” We have no where to stand to question all of our assumptions at once, but if we stand on this bit over here we can question our assumptions relative to where we are now standing, and then we can move over to somewhere else and question the assumptions we were standing on before. With such hopping around, questioning our beliefs and inventing better ones, we can progress without needing to ground all our beliefs in a philosophical foundation–a good thing too since no one has ever found a method for choosing among the various proposed philosophical and theological foundations that have been proposed and the root assumptions that they make.

So though there may be no ahistorical foundation for Reason, we are still better off than holding whimsical preferences for what we deem to be reasonable.

I find that atheists who think that they have given up on gods still tend to treat Reason and Truth as supernatural transcendental powers that we have a duty to conform to. I think we nonbelievers would do well to continue the Enlightenment project of de-divinizing our thinking by ridding ourselves of such gods, which is the focus of my blog at atheistichope.com. Our duty is to ourselves and to one another rather than the faculty of Reason. Philosophical inquiry then becomes part of our edification rather than the service of Truth.

Best,
Leela
 
…nothing you say can detract from what I know and who I am.
Dave:)
You are a finished product. How nice for you. I, on the other hand, am a work in progress. I welcome new ideas and hope to make the best ones a part of me. I hope I never become so complacent about what I know and who I am.
 
You are a finished product. How nice for you. I, on the other hand, am a work in progress. I welcome new ideas and hope to make the best ones a part of me. I hope I never become so complacent about what I know and who I am.
Thanks Leela for your insight. I hope you don’t think I’m complacent by my comment of “Knowing who I am and What I know”
That comment was to deter the respondants from trashing my character and tearing this thread apart.
All I asked was a simple question. Which seems to have a huge answer. (Not really though).

I have been a christian for more than 40 yrs. But my eyes have been opened to a new reality and it isn’t necesarily to do with religion or beliefs. I will discuss this in another thread.

Sorry folks but bare with me as I have so many thoughts and I must have time to organize them so as not to offend but to share.
Dave
 
=live63-I have a very important question to ask all of you RCs and other denominations. Since this is my first post, I will take it easy on you. But I want to be very clear with this question. As I know the response I will get and I know the answer.
Before you answer, think carefully because this is not a trick question.
After I gage the responses I will follow up with an explanation to my query.
Yes I am new to this site and no I am not a Catholic. As a matter of fact I belong to no church or religion. I will explain later if given the opportunity.
My Question is…
How do YOU know there is a GOD?
My name is David (King) John (The Baptist) Kraehling as my mother named me.
***First friend, allow me to somewhat level the "playing field you’ve selected.” A common " belief of the NA religion [not a correct word, as its really a cult], perhaps that’s to strong a word; but NA understanding is that there “is no God.” Frankly for anyone with personal integrity, just a wee bit of intelligence and common sense, its far easier to prove that there is God, than there is no god!

I will offer three proofs,*

The Created Universe itself. Scientist tell us that our galaxy consist of in excess of 1 BILLION planets, each as large as our earth. Further they estimate that traveling at the “speed of light” [about 1,850 miles per Second] that it would take about 47,000 years to go from one end to the other. Additionally they claim there are “Billions of galaxies.” A “typical human body “ consist of about “10 -Thousand-TRILLION’ soft cells.**

So hold unto whatever belief you’ve convinced yourself is reasonable. But something friend caused this Universe sustains it and renews it. We Christians choose to call this power, this source “our God.” Even if your one who accepts what science themselves call “The Theory of the Big Bang,” they are want to explain the “First Cause.” Where did the stuff that went “bang originate? And please, none of this “it always existed stuff. Not only can’t it be proven, it lacks logic.

The human person is the second evidence. With many thousands of species of living things on planet earth [which itself is another proof of God] we the human species are both unique and superior. Why and how? **
**
Can we agree on these?


What is; is
What is not; is not
Something can only be what it is
Something cannot something it is not
Something can only give what it has
Something cannot give what that something does not possess.
Humanity consists of both “physical matter” and “spiritual Things.” [Mind, intellect and freewill], putting aside for this discussion the “soul
.”

Now note that I used the term “mind” not “brain” which are separate “Things”. Further note that evidence of these spiritual Things can be given [indeed my writing this and you reading this prove it] but none of the three human things common to all humanity can be “quantified” thus proving there Spiritually. ***

***So the body “Things” can’t produce / reproduce “Spiritual things.” So what is the Origin of these “Spiritual Things.” Again, we Christians attribute this to our “God” who “Created” [to make out of nothing!] the Universe. I would point out another anomaly. Each and every human person past, present and future are uniquely themselves by virtue of the Spiritual gifts. Humanity can reason, can calculate, can compose, can create, can think and can forgive; all of which too make us unique. That friend is no set of accidents. It is rather the specific plan of the Creator. ***

That leads me to my third proof.

***The most unique thing, the most amazing thing about humanity is man’s desire to love and to be loved. To give love, and to receive love. It my contention that this cannot be a mere accident, nor is it simple animalistic instinct, because to love is a decision only humans can make. It is my contention and belief that this ability “mirrors” that of our Creator, and further that we were Created with these unique and special gifts precisely to love each other and to return “love for love” with our Creator God.

Friend, beyond simply denying these truths, [that is insufficient given your posture] we look forward to proving me wrong.

And we know, oh so much better than you, just how important your question is.

Love and prayers friend.***
 
***First friend, allow me to somewhat level the "playing field you’ve selected.” A common " belief of the NA religion [not a correct word, as its really a cult], perhaps that’s to strong a word; but NA understanding is that there “is no God.” Frankly for anyone with personal integrity, just a wee bit of intelligence and common sense, its far easier to prove that there is God, than there is no god!

I will offer three proofs,***

The Created Universe itself. Scientist tell us that our galaxy consist of in excess of 1 BILLION planets, each as large as our earth. Further they estimate that traveling at the “speed of light” [about 1,850 miles per Second] that it would take about 47,000 years to go from one end to the other. Additionally they claim there are “Billions of galaxies.” A “typical human body “ consist of about “10 -Thousand-TRILLION’ soft cells.

So hold unto whatever belief you’ve convinced yourself is reasonable. But something friend caused this Universe sustains it and renews it. We Christians choose to call this power, this source “our God.” Even if your one who accepts what science themselves call “The Theory of the Big Bang,” they are want to explain the “First Cause.” Where did the stuff that went “bang originate? And please, none of this “it always existed stuff. Not only can’t it be proven, it lacks logic.

The human person is the second evidence. With many thousands of species of living things on planet earth [which itself is another proof of God] we the human species are both unique and superior. Why and how?
**
Can we agree on these?**

What is; is
What is not; is not
Something can only be what it is
Something cannot something it is not
Something can only give what it has
Something cannot give what that something does not possess.
Humanity consists of both “physical matter” and “spiritual Things.” [Mind, intellect and freewill], putting aside for this discussion the “soul
.”

Now note that I used the term “mind” not “brain” which are separate “Things”. Further note that evidence of these spiritual Things can be given [indeed my writing this and you reading this prove it] but none of the three human things common to all humanity can be “quantified” thus proving there Spiritually. ***

***So the body “Things” can’t produce / reproduce “Spiritual things.” So what is the Origin of these “Spiritual Things.” Again, we Christians attribute this to our “God” who “Created” [to make out of nothing!] the Universe. I would point out another anomaly. Each and every human person past, present and future are uniquely themselves by virtue of the Spiritual gifts. Humanity can reason, can calculate, can compose, can create, can think and can forgive; all of which too make us unique. That friend is no set of accidents. It is rather the specific plan of the Creator. ***

That leads me to my third proof.

***The most unique thing, the most amazing thing about humanity is man’s desire to love and to be loved. To give love, and to receive love. It my contention that this cannot be a mere accident, nor is it simple animalistic instinct, because to love is a decision only humans can make. It is my contention and belief that this ability “mirrors” that of our Creator, and further that we were Created with these unique and special gifts precisely to love each other and to return “love for love” with our Creator God.

Friend, beyond simply denying these truths, [that is insufficient given your posture] we look forward to proving me wrong.

And we know, oh so much better than you, just how important your question is.

Love and prayers friend.***
WOW… Thank you PJM for your enlightenment. But honestly, I do believe in God, and as for NA, if you read my previous reply you would know the reason for my NA affiliation. It seems I have placed my loyalties in the wrong class, maybe I should change it to NON-RELIGION. Would that help my cause?
PJM, after reading your post, I hate to say this but what you wrote is as I call it FLUFF any person of any intellegence could have written what you wrote. Now sorry if I stepped on your toes, but I asked a very valid question. Your answer is not from you but from information you have gathered.

The answer is very simple about how you know if there is a God.

You don’t need scientific proof. You were right about one thing God gives us the ability to think.
Only you (each and everyone of us) KNOWS that there is a higher presence that helps us guides us and directs us to the truth. We have in our heart, spirit, and soul.
PJM, you were not going to go into the soul, Why not? It is everyones makeup. The soul is who you are. Your spirit is what you are.
I have wanted to ask a larger audience this question for along time and I am satisfied with the responses I got.
I thank each and everyone of you who responded.

My next question (thread) will go in a total opposite direction.
Thanks again
Dave
 
PJM,

You are actually displaying a lack of understanding of your own religion and thus serving to polarize even further unnecessary contest.
 
Live63,

You can make progress if you begin by discovering the real definition of “a god”. From there it is all provable logic, not supposition.
 
Yes, James 🙂

Under what condition should you know god? The condition of the heart that is honestly seeking truth. There are many, many reasons given for ones experience of god: is it not time that you abandoned mere folly of words and spoke form the heart - and there you will find god: in you. For no man could claim to know god better from here.
 
=live63;5684091]WOW… Thank you PJM for your enlightenment. But honestly, I do believe in God, and as for NA, if you read my previous reply you would know the reason for my NA affiliation. It seems I have placed my loyalties in the wrong class, maybe I should change it to NON-RELIGION. Would that help my cause?
PJM, after reading your post, I hate to say this but what you wrote is as I call it FLUFF any person of any intellegence could have written what you wrote. Now sorry if I stepped on your toes, but I asked a very valid question. Your answer is not from you but from information you have gathered.
The answer is very simple about how you know if there is a God.
You don’t need scientific proof. You were right about one thing God gives us the ability to think.
Only you (each and everyone of us) KNOWS that there is a higher presence that helps us guides us and directs us to the truth. We have in our heart, spirit, and soul.
PJM, you were not going to go into the soul, Why not? It is everyones makeup. The soul is who you are. Your spirit is what you are.
I have wanted to ask a larger audience this question for along time and I am satisfied with the responses I got.
I thank each and everyone of you who responded.
My next question (thread) will go in a total opposite direction.
Thanks again
Dave
***Dave, thanks for the kond words.

The points I made are logical, valid and understandable. They do point to a THING {Power / Source / that we choose to call our God. Point three has no other possible rational explaination.

So Dave my friend, call it “fluff” if you choose. But if can’t give similar logical verification that there is “no god / God” then my postions should hold sway on the isssue. In other words Dave if you can;t prove that their is “no god” one must conclude that there is. And by the way; There is!👍

Love and prayers,

Pat***
 
Pat, I have never claimed that there wasn’t a god. As you are aware that there is so do I. I was asking how people knew. What I have found over the years is the “Fluff” I call is convoluded thoughts that people say they know God but when quized on it can only quote what they have heard and not what they know or feel. All I want is for people to think for themselves and learn the truth of God and there existance on earth. I want them to search out the true meaning and not just rely on the church to tell them what God is. Yes I will conceed that some people need direction, But they should at some point take a chance and explore on there own.

Again Pat, I have enjoyed our conversation.
Dave
 
Since this is my first post, I will take it easy on you. …

…I know the response I will get and I know the answer…

…Before you answer, think carefully because this is not a trick question.
My my, aren’t you rather patronizing for someone who doesn’t know how to spell the word gauge.

Since it’s my first time answering you, I’ll take it easy on you. A simple understanding of one way I can (and do) know that God exists: “I doubt”

(hint: Renes DesCartes)
 
My my, aren’t you rather patronizing for someone who doesn’t know how to spell the word gauge.

Since it’s my first time answering you, I’ll take it easy on you. A simple understanding of one way I can (and do) know that God exists: “I doubt”

(hint: Renes DesCartes)
My friend, you do know that the word gauge is also spelled gage. Being picky of ones spelling, is trivial. Why do you “doubt”. Are you of the mindset that only believes what he sees?
Just wondering.
 
So what you essentially just said is that you can reason that God exists if we lower the bar for what we consider reason. You said that it can be “known with certainty by reason alone” but this personalized reasoning that you’re bringing up has no certainty due to the “fallible human faculty” as you put it. Thus, the reasoning you’re referencing is simply belief.
hey pele, Leela put it pretty well I think. She’s certainly a lot more realistic than you seem to be. Anyway, I think this discussion is off-topic here, I’ve reposted in another thread, feel free to repeat your accusation over in Spock’s “I still cannot understand you people!” thread. I’ll answer it there if Leela didn’t already do it for you here. Best.

p.s.: Dave (live63), I don’t know where you’re headed but sorry about the groundless accusations that have been leveled at you so far! Good luck.
 
=live63;5687526]Pat, I have never claimed that there wasn’t a god. As you are aware that there is so do I. I was asking how people knew. What I have found over the years is the “Fluff” I call is convoluded thoughts that people say they know God but when quized on it can only quote what they have heard and not what they know or feel. All I want is for people to think for themselves and learn the truth of God and there existance on earth. I want them to search out the true meaning and not just rely on the church to tell them what God is. Yes I will conceed that some people need direction, But they should at some point take a chance and explore on there own.
Again Pat, I have enjoyed our conversation.
Dave
Hi David, thanks for the kind words.😃

The “Things” argument is someting I was taught. The position of being able to love is my personal experience with and through my God.👍

Love and prayers, I too have enjoyed our discussion.

Pat
 
Being picky of ones spelling, is trivial.
So is treating people like they know less than you when you’ve never even met them.
Why do you “doubt”. Are you of the mindset that only believes what he sees?
Just wondering.
Not at all, but doubt is the only thing in the world a total skeptic can never disprove. It is impossible to correctly doubt that you are capable of doubting, such would be paradoxical. From there DesCartes came up with his Cogito ergo Sum, (I think, therefore I am), since doubt is a form of thought, and thought is the essense of existence. The argument gets convoluted from there, but includes the nature of existance to require creation and habitat, and since our thoughts are incapable of creating an existance for ourselves, there must be a being who both is responsible for creating us, and for creating a habitat for us to live in.
 
Not at all, but doubt is the only thing in the world a total skeptic can never disprove. It is impossible to correctly doubt that you are capable of doubting, such would be paradoxical. From there DesCartes came up with his Cogito ergo Sum, (I think, therefore I am), since doubt is a form of thought, and thought is the essense of existence. The argument gets convoluted from there, but includes the nature of existance to require creation and habitat, and since our thoughts are incapable of creating an existance for ourselves, there must be a being who both is responsible for creating us, and for creating a habitat for us to live in.
What would, ‘I do not think so, therefore I am not’, be useful for?
 
So is treating people like they know less than you when you’ve never even met them.

From there DesCartes came up with his Cogito ergo Sum, (I think, therefore I am), there must be a being who both is responsible for creating us, and for creating a habitat for us to live in.
Yes, I agree with you in this regard. As you put a different view to the situation and follow it up with a very good explanation. As I grow older, my skepticism of our existance is forever changing. You put it as a being in control of our creation as well as our habitat. I just want to say that at times it feels like I’m in the sandbox playing but the difference is I’m the manipulated one. The “Higher Being” is the one doing the manipulating.

Dave
 
I just want to say that at times it feels like I’m in the sandbox playing but the difference is I’m the manipulated one. The “Higher Being” is the one doing the manipulating.
Tell us about that.
 
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