I have been studying and pondering all the different Keys mentioned in the Bible, who holds them and how this all fits together.

[schaick]

**Key to the Pit/Shaft of the Abyss: ** Someone evil/Satan holds these Keys who will torture certain men.

**Revelation 9: ** 1The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss.

Key to the Abyss: Then an angel has the Key and locks away Satan.

**Revelation 20: ** 1And I saw an angel coming down out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.

**The Key of the house of David: **Mentioned in Isaiah 22 this Key represents authority to rule Israel. We are told that in Revelation Jesus holds the Key of David. In Romans 11 we learn that we have been grafted onto the root of the Olive tree-Israel. Jesus holds the Key of the house of David.

**Isaiah 22: ** 22 I will place on his shoulder the key to the house of David; what he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open.

Jesus will open and keep open a door for a “church in Philadelphia” that little strength but that has kept His Word.

**Revelation 3: ** 7"To the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
These are the words of him who is holy and true, who holds the key of David. What he opens no one can shut, and what he shuts no one can open. 8I know your deeds. See, I have placed before you an open door that no one can shut. I know that you have little strength, yet you have kept my word and have not denied my name. 9I will make those who are of the synagogue of Satan, who claim to be Jews though they are not, but are liars—I will make them come and fall down at your feet and acknowledge that I have loved you.

Keys of death and Hades= Key of death and Key of Hades:

Revelation 1: 18I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

Jesus holds the Keys of death and Hades and all who believe “the church” will be resurrected “gates of Hades will not overcome it.”

We know that right now, today and forever it is Jesus holds the Key of Hades, the Key of Death and the Key of David.

Key of Knowledge: We are told that teachers hold the Key to Knowledge they can give and take away the Key.

Luke 11: 52"Woe to you experts in the law, because you have taken away the key to knowledge. You yourselves have not entered, and you have hindered those who were entering."

Each teacher instructed about the kingdom of heaven had the Keys of Heaven “is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”]
Matthew 13: 52He said to them, “Therefore every teacher of the law who has been instructed about the kingdom of heaven is like the owner of a house who brings out of his storeroom new treasures as well as old.”

Jesus uses the Key of Knowledge to open the minds of the disciples.

Luke 24: 45Then he opened their minds so they could understand the Scriptures. 46He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 47and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

Those are all the easy ones now we come to:

Keys of Heaven- notice it is plural.

Matthew 16: 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

“I will”- Jesus has not yet given the disciples the Keys. And there are 2 things being spoken of here the Keys of Heaven and the binding and loosing of “whatever”.

I find it interesting that the binding and loosing is of whatever- not whoever?

There must be 2 disciples in agreement for the binding and loosing to work:

**Matthew 18: ** 19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

Numbers 30 is a great example of how GOD ratifies the binding and loosing: If it is agreeable with GOD it is ratified if not then it is not ratified. In other words binding and loosing depends on whether it is agreeable with GOD’s Law.

Binding and loosing also involves faith:
Matthew 17: 19Then came the disciples to Jesus apart, and said, Why could not we cast him out?
20And Jesus said unto them, Because of your unbelief: for verily I say unto you, If ye have faith as a grain of mustard seed, ye shall say unto this mountain, Remove hence to yonder place; and it shall remove; and nothing shall be impossible unto you

Back to the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven: These people possessed the Keys to heaven but misused them and having possession does not guarantee entry.

Matthew 23: 13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

“I will give you the keys of heaven” - this is a future event for the disciples. When Peter disowned Jesus was he was holding the Keys of Heaven?

Interesting that GOD inspired a man to write about the disciples having little faith, right before the discussion about the Keys of Heaven.

**Matthew 16: ** 8Aware of their discussion, Jesus asked, "You of little faith, why are you talking among yourselves about having no bread? 9Do you still not understand?

 

[JRKH]

Ineresting.

I do have a bit of a problem with your connection here:

Matthew 16: 19I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven." 20Then he warned his disciples not to tell anyone that he was the Christ.

“I will”- Jesus has not yet given the disciples the Keys. And there are 2 things being spoken of here the Keys of Heaven and the binding and loosing of “whatever”.

I find it interesting that the binding and loosing is of whatever- not whoever?

There must be 2 disciples in agreement for the binding and loosing to work:

Matthew 18: 19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them."

The reference in Mt 18 is about “Asking” for things in prayer, not “binding and loosing”.

The reference in Mt 16 is in a passage where Jesus is talking to a single individual.
Matthew 16: 17-19
17 Jesus replied, "**Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah, **for this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven. 18 “**I also say to you that you are Kepha (Rock), and upon this Kepha I will build My church **; and the gates of Hades will not overpower it. 19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.”

It is clear here that at this time Jesus is talking to a single individual. Simon Peter (Kepha), promising to give him the keys to the Kingdom with the power to bind and loose.
This power to bind and loose is then expressed in a broader sense in Mt 18 where it says.
Matthew 18: 15-18
15 "If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16 "But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that by the mouth of two or three witnesses every fact may be confirmed. 17 "If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church (Singular); and if he refuses to listen even to the church let him be as a tax collector. 18 "Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.
So - It appears that Jesus intended for the power to bind and loose to reside within, “The Church”, - Which is built upon him to whom the keys were promised - That is Peter, who was the leader of The Church. Such power to “bind and Loose - whatever”, would then logically continue to reside in the successors of the original Church leaders, headed by the successor of Peter in the Church leadership.
The verse you refer to about 2 or three gathering and asking follows the portion about binding and loosing and emphasises the importance of prayer in gathering, and in asking the father for things (in humility) rather than lording it over others.
Asking for things as a community cannot be equated to the power of “binding and loosing”, though I would agree that they have things in common.

Peace
James

 

[karoleck]

A Key to The Kingdom
If you want to know about keys,kneel at the feet of The Chief Locksmith Jesus ;who gave all the Keys to St.Peter"the Rock"where he hides them in a" Safe"place in the Vatican City.One Pope after another has been entrusted as a keep of the Gate.He opens and shuts this gate as the Holy Spirit blows His breath and sets the Kingdom on fire with His Love.Pope Benedict is now an expert lockmith who teaches and upholds all the treasures,which will be secure until the end of time.Entrust the wealth of your soul to this secure fortress and invest everything you have, to have a “Share"when the Heavenly Gates are open to reveal the " Will” or plan of The Chief Locksmith in the Light of Eternal Glory.

 

[tito]

From the very start of his earthly ministry Jesus came announcing that the time was now and the Kingdom of God was at hand, by preaching the gospel and calling for repentance and faith (‘believe’) as in Mark 1:14b,15 and Matt. 4:17: “Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand”.
The key of the knowledge he was talking about is knowledge of how to enter the kingdom that he was announcing. The scribes or teachers of the Law should have known what the time was, for the Jews were expecting their Messiah as prophesied in Daniel ch. 9 where the prophecy of the time of arrival of the Messiah was predicted in the prophecy of the 70 weeks of years: Daniel 9:26a “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off but not for himself…” When Jesus arrived the time was right.

Luke 11:52 the experts of the Law were ignorant of the time, and Jesus harshly pronounced a woe on them for not knowing it,as they were teaching a different message than what they should have been teaching, misleading the peoples. From the time of the Babylonian captivity till the time of Jesus the Jews had particularly been under great greek influence and due to this Hellenistic pressure Mosaic Judaism was perverted and Pharisaical Judaism had taken over to the point that they had elevated their traditions to the level of the Law in authority. They had taken faith out of the equation and converted Judaism a strickly ‘works’ religion. Jesus told the scribes and pharisees in Matthew 15:6b “Thus have ye made the commandments of God of none effect by your tradition”. I do not believe Jesus was comdenming tradition but the replacement of their salvation into a works only religion eliminating the faith aspect of it.
Matthew 23:13 is but one of the several woes Jesus pronounced against these ‘false gospel’ teachers, that by their error were misleading the rest of the Jewish people.

Matt 16:19,20 Jesus gave the keys to apostles and in particular this was commended to the Apostle Peter but the meaning of the keys is clarified to me in what Jesus said before he ascended into Heaven when he said in Acts 1:8: “But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you (Pentecost, the birth of the Church); and ye shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem and in all of Judea, and in Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth”.
The geographic order in which they were to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God is significant. The apostles were commanded not to depart from Jerusalem at first (Acts 1:4).

   1)  Peter, during the feast of Pentecost in Jerusalem of Judea preached the gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews that had come to celebrate the feast of Pentecost and (Acts 2) and over 5000 Jews converted (Acts 4:4). THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF PETER'S USE OF THE KEYS AND OPENING THE DOOR OF THE KINGDOM TO THE JEWS.

 2) Again Peter, after that Philip the evangelist preached in Samaria, is summoned upon to go accompanied by the Apostle John to Samaria (Acts 8:12-25) when many of the Samaritans believed and converted,and were baptized.Pete r was called upon to pray for them who had believed so that they would receive the Holy Ghost upon the imposition of the Apostle's hand. THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE APOSTLE PETER OPENING THE DOOR OF THE KINGDOM TO THE SAMARITANS.

 3) Finally Peter, in Acts 10, is called to the house of Cornelius, a Gentile and Roman centurion, to preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God and while he is doing so (v.42-47) Cornelius and his house filled with faith believed and the Holy Spirit fell on them who heard the word of the gospel Peter preached having converted as well. Check the verses out for it is very moving I believe. THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE APOSTLE PETER OPENING THE DOOR OF THE KINGDOM, THIS TIME TO THE GENTILES.  Now the whole of humanity, Jew-Samaritan-Gentiles had the doors opened to enter the Kingdom that Jesus came preaching, so that no one is left out without opportunity to be saved.

This is long and is how I understand the Keys given to Peter to open the doors of the Kingdom to the human race after the triumph at Calvary of Messiah for the sins of the whole world.

 

[tito]

From the very start of his earthly ministry Jesus came announcing that the time was now and the Kingdom of God was at hand, by preaching the gospel and calling for repentance and faith (‘believe’) as in Mark 1:14b,15 and Matt. 4:17: “Repent for the Kingdom of Heaven is at hand”.
The key of the knowledge he was talking about is knowledge of how to enter the kingdom that he was announcing. The scribes or teachers of the Law should have known what the time was, for the Jews were expecting their Messiah as prophesied in Daniel ch. 9 where the prophecy of the time of arrival of the Messiah was predicted in the prophecy of the 70 weeks of years: Daniel 9:26a “And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off but not for himself…” When Jesus arrived the time was right.

Luke 11:52 the experts of the Law were ignorant of the time, and Jesus harshly pronounced a woe on them for not knowing it,as they were teaching a different message than what they should have been teaching, misleading the peoples. From the time of the Babylonian captivity till the time of Jesus the Jews had particularly been under great greek influence and due to this Hellenistic pressure Mosaic Judaism was perverted and Pharisaical Judaism had taken over to the point that they had elevated their traditions to the level of the Law in authority. They had taken faith out of the equation and converted Judaism a strickly ‘works’ religion. Jesus told the scribes and pharisees in Matthew 15:6b “Thus have ye made the commandments of God of none effect by your tradition”. I do not believe Jesus was comdenming tradition but the replacement of their salvation into a works only religion eliminating the faith aspect of it.
Matthew 23:13 is but one of the several woes Jesus pronounced against these ‘false gospel’ teachers, that by their error were misleading the rest of the Jewish people.

Matt 16:19,20 Jesus gave the keys to apostles and in particular this was commended to the Apostle Peter but the meaning of the keys is clarified to me in what Jesus said before he ascended into Heaven when he said in Acts 1:8: “But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you (Pentecost, the birth of the Church); and ye shall be witnesses unto me in Jerusalem and in all of Judea, and in Samaria and unto the uttermost part of the earth”.
The geographic order in which they were to preach the gospel of the kingdom of God is significant. The apostles were commanded not to depart from Jerusalem at first (Acts 1:4).

   1)  Peter, during the feast of Pentecost in Jerusalem of Judea preached the gospel of the Kingdom to the Jews that had come to celebrate the feast of Pentecost and (Acts 2) and over 5000 Jews converted (Acts 4:4). THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF PETER'S USE OF THE KEYS AND OPENING THE DOOR OF THE KINGDOM TO THE JEWS.

 2) Again Peter, after that Philip the evangelist preached in Samaria, is summoned upon to go accompanied by the Apostle John to Samaria (Acts 8:12-25) when many of the Samaritans believed and converted,and were baptized.Pete r was called upon to pray for them who had believed so that they would receive the Holy Ghost upon the imposition of the Apostle's hand. THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE APOSTLE PETER OPENING THE DOOR OF THE KINGDOM TO THE SAMARITANS.

 3) Finally Peter, in Acts 10, is called to the house of Cornelius, a Gentile and Roman centurion, to preach the gospel of the Kingdom of God and while he is doing so (v.42-47) Cornelius and his house filled with faith believed and the Holy Spirit fell on them who heard the word of the gospel Peter preached having converted as well. Check the verses out for it is very moving I believe. THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF THE APOSTLE PETER OPENING THE DOOR OF THE KINGDOM, THIS TIME TO THE GENTILES.  Now the whole of humanity, Jew-Samaritan-Gentiles had the doors opened to enter the Kingdom that Jesus came preaching, so that no one is left out without opportunity to be saved.

This is long and is how I understand the Keys given to Peter to open the doors of the Kingdom to the human race after the triumph at Calvary of Messiah for the sins of the whole world.

 

[schaick]

About verse Luke 11: 52, I agree Jesus is not condeming tradition, but it must jive with GOD’s Word. I was using this verse to portray the Key of Knowledge- a person can give it to another person and a person can block it from being given away .

Some may have missed my points - The reason I got started on all the different keys mentioned in the Bible is because of the realization of the multiple things taking place in Matthew 16 - the giving of Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, the binding and loosing and the building of the church- *"on this rock I will build my ekklesia, “the community called out.”] *are 3 different things. It is also interesting to note that the other Keys are singular except when it comes to the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.

1st thing being discussed- binding and loosing- Jesus mentions the binding and loosing in Matthew 16 and then after Jesus was talking about the sinning brother:
Matthew 18
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

The reference in Mt 18 is about “Asking” for things in prayer, not “binding and loosing”.- no it is not simply praying for things. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees could bind and loose and they could do so falsely:

Matthew 23
2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

There are rules to follow in binding and loosing- it has to be ratified by GOD, follow the rules of GOD. The disciples have the ability to bind and loose right then when 2 of them are together.

2nd thing being discussed the Keys- I think you might have missed my point - don’t think the Keys were given out right at the time of Matthew 16- it is a future event in the lives of the disciples. Jesus is saying “I will give”.

I don’t think that Peter had the Keys when he disowned Jesus.

Matthew 10:32 “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.”

Yes, Peter disowned Jesus but went on to open the gate to the Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans and later die for his belief.

What I am comtemplating is WHEN were the Keys given out?

I am pondering on these verses as to when the giving occurred:
John 20
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I don’t think that Peter had the Keys when he disowned Jesus.

Matthew 10:32 “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. 33 But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.”

Yes, Peter disowned Jesus but went on to open the gate to the Jews, Gentiles, Samaritans and later die for his belief.

What I am comtemplating is WHEN were the Keys given out?

I am pondering on these verses as to when the giving occurred:
John 20
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Jesus was specifically speaking to Peter when He said He would give the keys to the kingdom of heaven to him.

Just as you seek to use ‘will give’ as to a future event, it is now long passed and has already happened, you should pay close attention to all the words spoken.

**Mat 16:17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven. **

Christ was speaking one train of thought, so to speak, evident by His use of the word ‘AND’.

The other disciples had guessed, He was Elias or John the Baptist, but Peter got it right and Jesus said clearly who had chosen Peter, 'Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.

Now as for your thoughts on Christ taking His keys back when Simon Peter denied Him. Where in scriptures is this view written? Christ knew he was going to deny Him, but He didn’t say, ‘because you will deny me, I take back the keys.’

Peter was crushed that, even after Christ had told him he would deny him, he had denied Christ. Peter had returned to fishing, he felt unworthy of Christ for what he had done. But Christ came again and singled Peter out.

Joh 21:15 When therefore they had dined, Jesus saith to Simon Peter: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith to him: Yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:16 He saith to him again: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith to him: yea, Lord, thou knowest that I love thee. He saith to him: Feed my lambs.
Joh 21:17 He said to him the third time: Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he had said to him the third time: Lovest thou me? And he said to him: Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee. He said to him: Feed my sheep.

Just as Christ knew Peter would deny Him three times, Christ chose to ask him if he loved Him and instructed him to feed His sheep three times. Note the first time He asked Peter if he loved Him. ‘Lovest thou me more than these?’ Do you Peter love me more than the others?

Peter’s lesson in humility had been learned and he expressed it when he said, ‘Lord, thou knowest all things: thou knowest that I love thee.’

No one else was placed in the position of tending to His ‘lambs/sheep’, just as no one else was told they would receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven.

Before continuing, do you doubt that Christ knew that Peter would deny Him 3 times when He told him He would give him the keys? Christ knew all things to come and He knew all men.

Joh 2:24 But Jesus did not trust himself unto them: for that he knew all men,
Joh 2:25 And because he needed not that any should give testimony of man: for he knew what was in man.

Out of all the keys you bring up, there is only one mention of the keys to the kingdom of heaven and it was in the plural, giving Peter authority to make decisions on doctrines, or the ways to heaven. Note I said, decisions, doctrines and ways, ALL also in the plural.

Yes, you’re right, there is not a specific time stated as to when the keys passed, but they have already passed. Could it have been when Christ told Peter to feed His lambs three times? He followed it up with the last words that John shared with us from the Lord.

Joh 21:22 Jesus saith to him: So I will have him to remain till I come, what is it to thee? Follow thou me.

Leave the fishing and follow me as I command you, and Peter did. He did not disown Peter, nor was it believed that Peter had not been singled out.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter, rising up, said to them: Men, brethren, you know that in former days God made choice among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe.

 

[JRKH]

(
(snip)
Some may have missed my points - The reason I got started on all the different keys mentioned in the Bible is because of the realization of the multiple things taking place in Matthew 16 - the giving of Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven, the binding and loosing and the building of the church- *"on this rock I will build my ekklesia, “the community called out.”] *are 3 different things. It is also interesting to note that the other Keys are singular except when it comes to the Keys of the Kingdom of Heaven.

I think that this is an interesting line of study and I commend you in following it. The fact that we differ on some of the conclusions only provides each of us an opprotunity to grow into deeper understanding.

1st thing being discussed- binding and loosing- Jesus mentions the binding and loosing in Matthew 16 and then after Jesus was talking about the sinning brother:
Matthew 18
18"I tell you the truth, whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.

I beg you to remember that, preaching a false Gospel is, in fact, sinning against your brother.

The reference in Mt 18 is about “Asking” for things in prayer, not “binding and loosing”.- no it is not simply praying for things. The teachers of the law and the Pharisees could bind and loose and they could do so falsely:

And yet Jesus tells the disciples to obey what the Scribes and Pharasees teach. There is noting in this passage that says those being taught are allowed to decide which of the teachings are true of false.
If a Jew is taught that he should do this or that and sees the teacher NOT doing it, he must still obey the teaching, regardless of the actions (failings) of the teacher.
If the teacher teaches falsely, it will be up to God, not you or me, to deal with such a false teacher.

Matthew 23
2"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4They tie up heavy loads and put them on men’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

There are rules to follow in binding and loosing- it has to be ratified by GOD, follow the rules of GOD. The disciples have the ability to bind and loose right then when 2 of them are together.

Not so - For if two or three together is sufficient for binding and loosing, then there is no need for Jesus to have put in a third step in Mt 18:15-18. The requirement would be fulfilled in the second step where two or three witnesses are brought forward. Yet you see that He did add a third step. A step that brings the sinner before “The Church”, which would mean beforen not just the whole community as if a majority vote will determine doctrine, but rather before the leadership of the Church who will decide with authority. This is what happened in Acts 15.

Keep studying my friend

Peace
James

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Jesus was specifically speaking to Peter when He said He would give the keys to the kingdom of heaven to him.

**Mat 16:17 ** And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven. ****

 

[JRKH]

It’s interesting that God reveals who Jesus is to Simon (Peter) before the passion, and then after the resurrection; God reveals to Peter in Acts 10 after the resurrection, that He “Peter” (Kephas) will excercise his Keys to the Kingdom, and loose the Gentiles into the Church as Jesus will do in heaven.

 

[schaick]

A Key to The Kingdom
If you want to know about keys,kneel at the feet of The Chief Locksmith Jesus ;who gave all the Keys to St.Peter"the Rock"where he hides them in a" Safe"place in the Vatican City.One Pope after another has been entrusted as a keep of the Gate.He opens and shuts this gate as the Holy Spirit blows His breath and sets the Kingdom on fire with His Love.Pope Benedict is now an expert lockmith who teaches and upholds all the treasures,which will be secure until the end of time.Entrust the wealth of your soul to this secure fortress and invest everything you have, to have a “Share"when the Heavenly Gates are open to reveal the " Will” or plan of The Chief Locksmith in the Light of Eternal Glory.

Is the Catholic Church clutching with whitened knuckles onto something that was not theirs to deny to another?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Is the Catholic Church clutching with whitened knuckles onto something that was not theirs to deny to another?

According to your interpretation…

Really, your comment is not part of the discussion, but more an opinion worded to ‘jab’ or ‘inflame’. For example, do you expect a response like, is that why Protestants wear ‘blinders’ because if the Catholic Church is right on this, their whole premise starts to crumble?

Points have been raised, but not responded too. Questions raised, but not responded too. What we have in response is what you posted.

Tell me the exact wording in your Bible and provide what version of the Bible you use. As I’ve pointed out it was an ongoing statement from Christ, while He was speaking to Peter.

Mat 16:17 And Jesus answering said to him: Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-Jona: because flesh and blood hath not revealed it to thee, but my Father who is in heaven.
Mat 16:18 And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.
Mat 16:19 And I will give to thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven. And whatsoever thou shalt bind upon earth, it shall be bound also in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth, it shall be loosed also in heaven.

As I’ve stated, this is how it’s worded in two King James Versions, the Douay-Rheims, and the Greek Interlinear. Do you think it was just poor wording on Christ’s part?

None of the Apostles knew the answer to Christ’s question and who gave Peter the answer?

 

[schaick]

Just as you seek to use ‘will give’ as to a future event, it is now long passed and has already happened, you should pay close attention to all the words spoken.

Not sure you want to use that as an argument - The crucifixion is long pass why dwell on that? I am paying close attention to all the words and that is how I noticed the “I will”

Now as for your thoughts on Christ taking His keys back when Simon Peter denied Him. Where in scriptures is this view written? Christ knew he was going to deny Him, but He didn’t say, ‘because you will deny me, I take back the keys.’.

NO, I am not saying that Jesus gave the Keys and then took them back. I am saying that the Keys had not yet been given to anyone until sometime after the denial, even after Jesus’ crucifixion.

Out of all the keys you bring up, there is only one mention of the keys to the kingdom of heaven and it was in the plural, giving Peter authority to make decisions on doctrines, or the ways to heaven. Note I said, decisions, doctrines and ways, ALL also in the plural.

Let’s not lump all the actions together so quickly. Today every Trinitarian Christian knows the way to salvation, even if no one held the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, we would still know.

HOW? How do we know, because we have the TRUTH- GOD’s Word- the Key of Knowledge. Back in Jesus’ time it was only those that could read and had studied- today we are doing that right now!!

Look at the power of GOD’s WORD- created the world, became flesh in Jesus and now we have GOD’s WORD revealed through Scripture, through which we find the plan for our salvation.

Who held the knowledge of GOD’s WORD, TRUTH and made sure it came down to us - the early church - the catholic church – and yes the Catholic Church.

Whether people believe Peter was the first Pope or not. The Catholic Church most assuredly held the Keys of Knowledge, GOD’s WORD for a very long time, until it could be distributed out to all people.

The Catholic Church has done it’s job and done it well- keeping the Scriptures, GOD’s written WORD from being destroyed.

Yes, you’re right, there is not a specific time stated as to when the keys passed, but they have already passed. Could it have been when Christ told Peter to feed His lambs three times? He followed it up with the last words that John shared with us from the Lord.

I am thinking the Holy Spirit had to be involved too.

Don’t want to go off topic here but there are differing views of what binding and loosing is. There is the Jewish- authority, apostolic power of binding and loosing and then the forgiving of sins. But even the following seems to say you binding and loosing the sin, the *“whatever”*and not the person:

John 20
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

AND is this an example of binding and loosing “whatever”?:

Matthew 17
18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

Binding the demon- is that a “whatever”?

Notice the disciples still didn’t get it, this is after Jesus mentioned “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven”. They did not have the luxury of knowing the whole story the way we do today.

 

[schaick]

According to your interpretation…

Really, your comment is not part of the discussion, but more an opinion worded to ‘jab’ or ‘inflame’. For example, do you expect a response like, is that why Protestants wear ‘blinders’ because if the Catholic Church is right on this, their whole premise starts to crumble?

Points have been raised, but not responded too. Questions raised, but not responded too. What we have in response is what you posted.

Tell me the exact wording in your Bible and provide what version of the Bible you use. As I’ve pointed out it was an ongoing statement from Christ, while He was speaking to Peter.

As I’ve stated, this is how it’s worded in two King James Versions, the Douay-Rheims, and the Greek Interlinear. Do you think it was just poor wording on Christ’s part?

None of the Apostles knew the answer to Christ’s question and who gave Peter the answer?

I was taught to get to the full meaning of Bible verses you must use all kinds of translations, study the original interlineal, and know the prejudice behind why and how that translation was written.

Even these but you have to realize we are not sure if the Gospel was written first in Greek or Aramaic:

aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Peshittainterlinear/1_Matthew/Mattich16.pdf

aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Lamsa/1_Matthew/Matthew16.htmaramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Lamsa/1_Matthew/Matthew16.htm

You are seeing it as a jab- I believe it is because you are so wound up in trying to defend Peter as Pope that you see it as a jab. My point in asking the question is whether Peter was the first or only receipient or not- how do you know that the Catholic Church is the only one holding the Keys today?

**Nothing is said about hiding the Keys in a secret place! ** That post immediately brought to mind this verse:

Matthew 23
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Nothing is said about how the Keys would be passed off or if they would be passed on.

This is a discussion not so much of who was given the Keys but what did Jesus mean by the keys, by the church and binding and loosing?

For example we know that a church is not a building but ekklesia “the community called out.”. Jesus said I will build my ekklesia “the community called out.”

Look at all the words carefully- Jesus did not say Peter I will let you build my church. Jesus is remaing as builder. Jesus is saying “my church” ownership is not being given to Peter or the disciples.

Were Peter and the disciples to be simply the maintenance men? Maintenace men hold a lot of keys!! They do not change anything in a building- just keep it clean-keep out false doctrine and repair things that have been broken-misunderstandings between churches?

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Not sure you want to use that as an argument - The crucifixion is long pass why dwell on that? I am paying close attention to all the words and that is how I noticed the “I will”

Then let’s assume you’re correct. Christ said He would, but He never did. Now what are we saying? Just as Christ told the Apostles He would suffer, He did. Just as Christ told Peter He would give him the keys, He did.

NO, I am not saying that Jesus gave the Keys and then took them back. I am saying that the Keys had not yet been given to anyone until sometime after the denial, even after Jesus’ crucifixion.

Maybe when He singled Peter out among the Apostles again. When He told Peter three times to feed His lambs and follow Him. Again, Christ did not say He would do something and then didn’t do it.

Let’s not lump all the actions together so quickly. Today every Trinitarian Christian knows the way to salvation, even if no one held the Keys to the Kingdom of Heaven, we would still know.

If no one held the keys, that Christ said He would give, but didn’t give?

HOW? How do we know, because we have the TRUTH- GOD’s Word- the Key of Knowledge. Back in Jesus’ time it was only those that could read and had studied- today we are doing that right now!!

Yet we find warnings about the dangers of ‘interpretations’ in scriptures. Every Christian claims to know truth. Do they all agree? If they do not, someone has wrested the scriptures; the unlearned, the unstable or the unwise.

Look at the power of GOD’s WORD- created the world, became flesh in Jesus and now we have GOD’s WORD revealed through Scripture, through which we find the plan for our salvation.

Who held the knowledge of GOD’s WORD, TRUTH and made sure it came down to us - the early church - the catholic church – and yes the Catholic Church.

Whether people believe Peter was the first Pope or not. The Catholic Church most assuredly held the Keys of Knowledge, GOD’s WORD for a very long time, until it could be distributed out to all people.

The Catholic Church has done it’s job and done it well- keeping the Scriptures, GOD’s written WORD from being destroyed.

I am thinking the Holy Spirit had to be involved too.

Let’s slow the roll here just a second and reflect on what’s been said. The men of the Church wrote the scriptures and gave them to other men of the Church, men that they had spoken with or, as some writings state, would be speaking too at a later time. They communicated the interpretation directly to those people, people that they themselves had appointed or knew who had appointed them. Those people appointed others and shared the scriptures with them, along with the interpretation. This process continued from one to the next.

Yes, the Holy Spirit was involved. This was another thing Christ said would be.

Now, Protestants have the Bible, yet they claim to know the interpretation better than those they got it from. Does this make any sense at all?

(CONTINUED)

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

Don’t want to go off topic here but there are differing views of what binding and loosing is. There is the Jewish- authority, apostolic power of binding and loosing and then the forgiving of sins. But even the following seems to say you binding and loosing the sin, the *“whatever”*and not the person:

John 20
19On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.
21Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

AND is this an example of binding and loosing “whatever”?:

Matthew 17
18Jesus rebuked the demon, and it came out of the boy, and he was healed from that moment.

19Then the disciples came to Jesus in private and asked, “Why couldn’t we drive it out?”

20He replied, “Because you have so little faith. I tell you the truth, if you have faith as small as a mustard seed, you can say to this mountain, ‘Move from here to there’ and it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you.”

Binding the demon- is that a “whatever”?

Notice the disciples still didn’t get it, this is after Jesus mentioned “I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven”. They did not have the luxury of knowing the whole story the way we do today.

Jesus’ ministry with the Apostles was a ongoing teaching process. Another thing that Christ told the Apostles:

**Joh 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you. **

Again, was Christ wrong? You, yourself, have provided John 20 telling us they received the Holy Ghost.

Peter received the keys and the authority to bind and loose. Yes, bind and loose is similar to forgive sins and retain sins, if not the same. With the keys, the decision was broadened. Peter had the authority to set doctrines, has he learned directly from Christ.

Binding and loosing/forgiving sins and retaining sins applied to all the men of the Church. But who held the keys to set the guidelines as to what sins would be bound and what sins would be loosed, or how those sins would be loosed? Peter did, as demonstrated in Christ’s choice of words when He spoke His ongoing statement to Peter by continously using the word ‘AND’. Peter did, as He learned directly from Christ, the cornerstone, the head of the body.

Just as we discussed God’s power to inspire His word be written, defined, preserved through the ages, God also had the power to protect the Church that He built, the Church that wrote, defined and preserved the word of God through the ages. The two go together and are one, in that we have a pillar and ground of truth to help us so we don’t go different ways through our own interpretations, preaching different Christs, or different truths.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in all things he may hold the primacy:

 

[Prodigal_Son1]

I was taught to get to the full meaning of Bible verses you must use all kinds of translations, study the original interlineal, and know the prejudice behind why and how that translation was written.

Even these but you have to realize we are not sure if the Gospel was written first in Greek or Aramaic:

aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Peshittainterlinear/1_Matthew/Mattich16.pdf

aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Lamsa/1_Matthew/Matthew16.htmaramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Lamsa/1_Matthew/Matthew16.htm

You are seeing it as a jab- I believe it is because you are so wound up in trying to defend Peter as Pope that you see it as a jab. My point in asking the question is whether Peter was the first or only receipient or not- how do you know that the Catholic Church is the only one holding the Keys today?

**Nothing is said about hiding the Keys in a secret place! ** That post immediately brought to mind this verse:

Matthew 23
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Nothing is said about how the Keys would be passed off or if they would be passed on.

This is a discussion not so much of who was given the Keys but what did Jesus mean by the keys, by the church and binding and loosing?

For example we know that a church is not a building but ekklesia “the community called out.”. Jesus said I will build my ekklesia “the community called out.”

Look at all the words carefully- Jesus did not say Peter I will let you build my church. Jesus is remaing as builder. Jesus is saying “my church” ownership is not being given to Peter or the disciples.

Were Peter and the disciples to be simply the maintenance men? Maintenace men hold a lot of keys!! They do not change anything in a building- just keep it clean-keep out false doctrine and repair things that have been broken-misunderstandings between churches?

The New Testament was written in the common language of the times, Greek. Even with the Greek, we see the authors used some Aramaic mixed in, primarily things that Christ spoke or taught.

Let’s go back to where the Bible came from. Do you really think they held the scriptures, received directly from the authors and did not understand the interpretations? Do you think that authors wrote and didn’t explain certain things about what they had written?

The secret place? The keys are metaphorical in that there were no physical keys. It was authority given by Him who received all authority from above. The Apostles understood that.

Christ said, and I say to you, you are Peter (Petros, Kephas) and upon this rock I will built my Church. It is Christ’s Church. He is the cornerstone and the Apostles are the foundation. The Apostles understood this. Then Christ said, AND I will give you the keys AND the authority to bind and loose.

The ekklesia is an assembly, the Church.

G1577
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
ek-klay-see’-ah
From a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564; a calling out, that is, (concretely) a popular meeting, especially a religious congregation (Jewish synagogue, or Christian community of members on earth or saints in heaven or both): - assembly, church.

They are one and the same. You cannot divide the body of Christ.

**1Co 1:12 Now this I say, that every one of you saith: I indeed am of Paul; and I am of Apollo; and I of Cephas; and I of Christ.
1Co 1:13 Is Christ divided? Was Paul then crucified for you? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul? **

Does the above seem to say that the Apostles took on more than the authority given them? With that authority, we see in scriptures Apostolic succession.

**Act 1:20 For it is written in the book of Psalms: Let their habitation become desolate, and let there be none to dwell therein. And his bishopric let another take. **

Christ taught the Apostles the scriptures and they understood that a vacated bishopric was to be filled. When that office/title was filled the replacement received the authorities that went with it. That is common sense, even today. These men knew how to pass the ‘keys’.

You have an objection because the Bible doesn’t tell us ‘how the keys were to be passed’, yet you have no objections to accepting the Bible as the ONLY authority, even though scriptures do not tell us that. Scriptures do not tell us to interpret scriptures for ourselves and then claim all others are incorrect.

God is not a God of chaos or confusion.

 

[JRKH]

For example we know that a church is not a building but ekklesia “the community called out.”. Jesus said I will build my ekklesia “the community called out.”

Look at all the words carefully- Jesus did not say Peter I will let you build my church. Jesus is remaing as builder. Jesus is saying “my church” ownership is not being given to Peter or the disciples.

Yes the term Church/ecclesia does mean a community. However please do remember that in any community of size, there will be a heirarchy, some from of governance, those with more authority and those with less. Paul even talks about this when he talks of people having different gifts. In fact I would assert that, without such hierarchial authority, without such governance, the community would soon disolve and cease to exist. You allude to theis very thing below.

Were Peter and the disciples to be simply the maintenance men? Maintenace men hold a lot of keys!! They do not change anything in a building- just keep it clean-keep out false doctrine and repair things that have been broken-misunderstandings between churches?

In a very real sense this is exactly what the magisterium of the Church is. It maintains the Truth of Christ’s teaching by “clean(ing)-keep(ing) out false doctrine and repair(ing) things that have been broken-misunderstandings between churches”
This the Church has done. Fighting against heresies inside the Church and outside, from that day to this. And as they have cleaned, and as they have repaired, they have documented what they have seen and done so that these problems do not reoccur, or if they do, the “maintenance men” who follow them will know how to handle the problem and make the necessary corrections.
The problem is not that the “maintenance men” of the Church have not been dilligent, but that others have rejected their attempts at cleaning and repairing.

Peace
James

 

[rinnie]

Easy Amswer! The Pope. The Pope hold the keys to the kingdom!!!

 

[wisdomseeker]

I was taught to get to the full meaning of Bible verses you must use all kinds of translations, study the original interlineal, and know the prejudice behind why and how that translation was written.

Even these but you have to realize we are not sure if the Gospel was written first in Greek or Aramaic:

aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Peshittainterlinear/1_Matthew/Mattich16.pdf

aramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Lamsa/1_Matthew/Matthew16.htmaramaicpeshitta.com/AramaicNTtools/Lamsa/1_Matthew/Matthew16.htm

You are seeing it as a jab- I believe it is because you are so wound up in trying to defend Peter as Pope that you see it as a jab. My point in asking the question is whether Peter was the first or only receipient or not- how do you know that the Catholic Church is the only one holding the Keys today?

**Nothing is said about hiding the Keys in a secret place! ** That post immediately brought to mind this verse:

Matthew 23
13"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to.

Nothing is said about how the Keys would be passed off or if they would be passed on.

This is a discussion not so much of who was given the Keys but what did Jesus mean by the keys, by the church and binding and loosing?

For example we know that a church is not a building but ekklesia “the community called out.”. Jesus said I will build my ekklesia “the community called out.”

Look at all the words carefully- Jesus did not say Peter I will let you build my church. Jesus is remaing as builder. Jesus is saying “my church” ownership is not being given to Peter or the disciples.

Were Peter and the disciples to be simply the maintenance men? Maintenace men hold a lot of keys!! They do not change anything in a building- just keep it clean-keep out false doctrine and repair things that have been broken-misunderstandings between churches?

why go through the trouble? did not Jesus give us a Teaching Church?

we know that the Church is not a building? no, you think that.

the Church is an institution and also a building. the House of God where we go to Worship God and where His presense is assured.

just go back to the OT and see how important the Temple was to God. it is a Sacred Place. it is where the Church offers Sacrifice to God.