I have found the last straw

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Look I really think this just comes down to common sense. You seem to think the church is leaving the door open to use of the pill for a good reason. It’s not it can’t. But this poor op is going to get a ll kinds of frazzeled if we keep this up on her thread. If you want to continue this “is the pill ok in hard cases?” arguement why not open a different thread. I would be more comfortable with that. Best of luck to the op.
Once more, I am not advocating for the use of contraception in any case. I’m advocating for the use of a medical treatment which can have contraceptive side effects.

In the 5 C-sections scenario, contraception would be unacceptable. So would sterilization. If, however, mom did get pregnant and managed to carry to term, but started to hemorrhage uncontrollably at delivery, neither she nor her OB would be doing anything wrong if she needed a hysterectomy at that point. Her OB wouldn’t be performing the hysterectomy with the intention of sterilizing her; he would be performing the hysterectomy with the intention of removing an organ which is hemorrhaging blood and going to kill his patient if it’s not removed.

It’s all in the intent.

Similarly, a woman can have chemotherapy and radiation treatments even if they might render her sterile, not because the Church says “in that case, you can get sterilized,” but because the Church says, “In that case, you need to treat your cancer, and if you are sterilized as a result of the treatment, it’s a sad consequence, but an unintended one.”

Or, if you’d like, take another example. I see an 60ish-year-old woman grab her chest and keel over one day while I’m grocery shopping. I run to her side, and check for a pulse. Finding none, and realizing that she’s not breathing, I tell a store associate to call 911 immediately while I begin CPR. In the process of doing chest compressions, I break some of this poor woman’s ribs, as happens not infrequently in older patients.

If I walked up to her on the street and hit her in the chest with a baseball bat, I’d be guilty of assault both in the eyes of the law and in those of God. If I do so in the course of performing a life-saving action, neither the law nor God will consider me guilty of wrongdoing, even though her ribs being broken is an objectively bad thing. Similarly, if I were a medical professional, and I prescribed a contraceptive or abortifacient pill in order to prevent a woman from getting pregnant, even for a very good reason, I’d be wrong to do so. If I said “You have ovarian cancer and need radiation therapy/have stage IV endometriosis and need hormonal therapy/have brain tumors and need chemotherapy,” that woman might become sterile, temporarily or otherwise, as a result of the treatment, but neither I nor she would be guilty of wrongdoing because our intention was to treat the medical condition, and sterility was an unintended consequence. (Did you read my link to the principle of double effect?)

The pill has done great harm to our society, but it can also do some good. It itself is a tool, nothing more. A surgical vacuum can be used to tear an unborn child limb from limb, as can forceps. They can also be used to save a child’s life. The solution isn’t to ban people from using vacuums or forceps altogether, but to require people of good will to use them in a rightly-ordered manner. Ditto oral hormonal pills.

OP, if you would like me to back down on this thread, just say so either here or via PM and I will. 🙂 You know I have nothing but the utmost respect for you and the pain you’ve suffered. However–and I could be guessing incorrectly, and if so, my apologies!–I sense that it’s important to you to know that you are doing nothing wrong, and to hear so from a Catholic perspective, which is part of the reason I am posting so vehemently on this thread.
 
I did quote HV> having sex while on the pill could endanger a child’s life. You folks come back with “she can’t get pregnant any way, no chance” and “the pill doesn’t always cause abortion” and etc. Im saying look at it from a logical stand point. You don’t partake in activity that can effect a childs life. If she is determined to take the pill let her abstain. What is the problem with that?
UbiCaritas provided you some information about the traditional Catholic principle of double effect. I suggest you read up on it.

Also, did you actually quote HV as saying that sex while on the pill could endanger a child’s life and was therefore verboten? Because I don’t recall seeing any quotes from HV from you to that effect.
 
I…don’t…even…:dts:

First of all, I did. Did you not read anything I said??? :confused:

Second of all, these doctors aren’t everywhere, so not everyone will have this luxury. 🤷
Exactly. Convert, I’m so glad you aren’t taking of these nutty ideas to heart.

Hope your appointment goes well.
 
So could having sex while breastfeeding/spending time in a hot tub/taking ibuprofen. The church doesn’t forbid any of those activities, either, unless they’re directly intended to prevent implantation.

You quoted paragraph 14 of Humanae Vitae, which states that one cannot use contraception as contraception even for a good reason. An example of that would be a woman who’s had five C-sections, and whose doctor has told her that if she gets pregnant again, she and the baby will probably die. Avoiding pregnancy is probably a good idea in her situation, but that doesn’t mean she can use contraception in order to do so.

Paragraph 15, which I also quoted, says perfectly clearly that medical treatments which can have unintended, contraceptive side effects are acceptable under Catholic teaching.

Now, you and jmjzelie do bring up a good point: the pill, though rarely, due to its suppression of ovulation, can be abortifacient. The Church, however, leaves it entirely up to the couple whether or not they’ll abstain or not during use of the pill, and has no requirements in either direction on it, just like it doesn’t require breastfeeding or perimenopausal women to abstain from sex, even though it’s quite possible that they’ll have some early miscarriages as a result of the hormonal levels associated with both seasons of life. The Church does not require abstinence of a couple when the woman is taking a medical treatment that could potentially cause sterility or miscarriage–again, see the principle of double effect. Paragraph 15 explicitly states that some medical treatments have “contraceptive effect” but are still acceptable as long as their purpose is treatment of a medical condition, and not contraception. They’d hardly have a contraceptive effect if the couple wasn’t having sex in the first place!

As for the comments about the improbability of conception while on the pill, you’re the one who said that the pill causes miscarriages. Others stepped in and said that while that’s possible, it’s quite rare, as the primary mechanism of the pill is to prevent ovulation in the first place.
Right.

If we are dealing with a situation where:
  1. the woman is 90% infertile
and
  1. the pill almost always suppresses ovulation and only has an abortifacient effect once in a blue moon
the combination of those two unlikely factors make it even less likely that that particular woman will suffer a miscarriage caused by use of the pill.
 
Look I really think this just comes down to common sense. You seem to think the church is leaving the door open to use of the pill for a good reason. It’s not it can’t. But this poor op is going to get a ll kinds of frazzeled if we keep this up on her thread. If you want to continue this “is the pill ok in hard cases?” arguement why not open a different thread. I would be more comfortable with that. Best of luck to the op.
You’re wishing me the “best of luck” but are denying me Church allowed treatments for my medical condition. You’re saying “best of luck” but are denying the very treatment that could keep me from being practically home bound and bedridden. That’s like wishing someone who has cancer “best of luck” but you can’t take chemo because it might cause a miscarriage. :rolleyes:
 
Convert, I think its time to walk away from this thread. It’s run it’s course and the stress is not doing you any good. Suffice it to day that many are praying and you can update your friends via pm.
God bless.
PC
 
Convert, I think its time to walk away from this thread. It’s run it’s course and the stress is not doing you any good. Suffice it to day that many are praying and you can update your friends via pm.
God bless.
PC
Yes!

You know what the answer is. We all want you to be well and functional and have your heart’s desire.

Best wishes!
 
You’re wishing me the “best of luck” but are denying me Church allowed treatments for my medical condition. You’re saying “best of luck” but are denying the very treatment that could keep me from being practically home bound and bedridden. That’s like wishing someone who has cancer “best of luck” but you can’t take chemo because it might cause a miscarriage. :rolleyes:
Convert,

Sheri is not denying you anything. She is a layperson like us. The only people who could deny you medical treatment would be your doctors, if they felt it wasn’t in your best interest. Your priest can give you pastoral counsel. The NCBC can give you expert advice.

Sheri is obviously very concerned about the possibility that you might conceive and lose the baby. She is obviously prolife and that is a good thing. But this sort of situation is sensitive and requires dispassionate, calm thinking by people who are trained to navigate these difficult situations.
 
Convert, I think its time to walk away from this thread. It’s run it’s course and the stress is not doing you any good. Suffice it to day that many are praying and you can update your friends via pm.
God bless.
PC
I’ve been thinking the same thing for some time. It may be best you don’t post about your medical treatments for a while. You get a lot of support and prayers, but you also get a lot of grief. I have mixed feelings saying this because I would personally like to know how you are doing and stay updated on things. But I also think posting about it may do at least as much harm as good.

The decision is yours, of course. Best wishes and God bless.
 
Anyways, I saw the Nurse Practitioner at my new doctor’s office today. 🙂 I see the new doctor Wednesday, but was seeing if there was anything we could get started sooner. I did come out with medicine, but it is a specialty medicine and has to be pre-authorized by my insurance so I can’t start taking it yet. Glad I came a week early. Hopefully it will be approved by my appointment. They are going to suppress ovulation and periods for the next 3-6 months while they dicide on the best course of long term action. Why on earth didn’t NaPro try that? 🤷

They also said if this medicine works, and my pain decreases significantly, then I could likely benefit from a complete hysterectomy (removal of the ovaries too.) Since my Endometriosis is persistent and keeps returning after multiple surgeries, I may be a severe enough case to warrant this course of action. And honestly, I’ve had ten long years of grieving my lack of children, so believe it or not, I’m okay with the possibility. Now, of course, they have other options such as long term hormonal use, but this speciality medicine can only be used short term. If the medicine doesn’t work, then it is possible that my severe pain could in fact be caused by the bowel endometriosis. But I’m glad it is an absolute last resort, not just something else to try. 🤷

I am pretty comfortable with this new place! 🙂 They seem to really care about me and are concerned about the debilitating levels of pain I’m experiencing. AND they have more options! 👍
 
Anyways, I saw the Nurse Practitioner at my new doctor’s office today. 🙂 I see the new doctor Wednesday, but was seeing if there was anything we could get started sooner. I did come out with medicine, but it is a specialty medicine and has to be pre-authorized by my insurance so I can’t start taking it yet. Glad I came a week early. Hopefully it will be approved by my appointment. They are going to suppress ovulation and periods for the next 3-6 months while they dicide on the best course of long term action. Why on earth didn’t NaPro try that? 🤷

They also said if this medicine works, and my pain decreases significantly, then I could likely benefit from a complete hysterectomy (removal of the ovaries too.) Since my Endometriosis is persistent and keeps returning after multiple surgeries, I may be a severe enough case to warrant this course of action. And honestly, I’ve had ten long years of grieving my lack of children, so believe it or not, I’m okay with the possibility. Now, of course, they have other options such as long term hormonal use, but this speciality medicine can only be used short term. If the medicine doesn’t work, then it is possible that my severe pain could in fact be caused by the bowel endometriosis. But I’m glad it is an absolute last resort, not just something else to try. 🤷

I am pretty comfortable with this new place! 🙂 They seem to really care about me and are concerned about the debilitating levels of pain I’m experiencing. AND they have more options! 👍
That sounds like a very helpful and productive visit. This is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to hear from you! 🙂 I’m so glad you’ve found help.

Please consider keeping us updated, either here or, as someone upthread suggested, in a PM. We care, and really do want the best for you! :flowers:
 
Anyways, I saw the Nurse Practitioner at my new doctor’s office today. 🙂 I see the new doctor Wednesday, but was seeing if there was anything we could get started sooner. I did come out with medicine, but it is a specialty medicine and has to be pre-authorized by my insurance so I can’t start taking it yet. Glad I came a week early. Hopefully it will be approved by my appointment. They are going to suppress ovulation and periods for the next 3-6 months while they dicide on the best course of long term action. Why on earth didn’t NaPro try that? 🤷

They also said if this medicine works, and my pain decreases significantly, then I could likely benefit from a complete hysterectomy (removal of the ovaries too.) Since my Endometriosis is persistent and keeps returning after multiple surgeries, I may be a severe enough case to warrant this course of action. And honestly, I’ve had ten long years of grieving my lack of children, so believe it or not, I’m okay with the possibility. Now, of course, they have other options such as long term hormonal use, but this speciality medicine can only be used short term. If the medicine doesn’t work, then it is possible that my severe pain could in fact be caused by the bowel endometriosis. But I’m glad it is an absolute last resort, not just something else to try. 🤷

I am pretty comfortable with this new place! 🙂 They seem to really care about me and are concerned about the debilitating levels of pain I’m experiencing. AND they have more options! 👍
I hope things turn for the better.

Let’s all hope and pray for a light at the end of the tunnel.

:hug1:
 
Convert, I think its time to walk away from this thread. It’s run it’s course and the stress is not doing you any good. Suffice it to day that many are praying and you can update your friends via pm.
God bless.
PC
Yes!

You know what the answer is. We all want you to be well and functional and have your heart’s desire.
I’ve been thinking the same thing for some time. It may be best you don’t post about your medical treatments for a while. You get a lot of support and prayers, but you also get a lot of grief. I have mixed feelings saying this because I would personally like to know how you are doing and stay updated on things. But I also think posting about it may do at least as much harm as good.

The decision is yours, of course. Best wishes and God bless.
Yeah, maybe you’re right. I do benefit a lot from the prayers and support. I wouldn’t even have had the courage to try a secular doctor (or hormonal treatment options) if it weren’t for your encouragement and support that I wasn’t hurting my relationship with God by doing so. Thank you SO much! :grouphug: God bless you all! I will keep you updated some how. 😉
 
Anyways, I saw the Nurse Practitioner at my new doctor’s office today. 🙂 I see the new doctor Wednesday, but was seeing if there was anything we could get started sooner. I did come out with medicine, but it is a specialty medicine and has to be pre-authorized by my insurance so I can’t start taking it yet. Glad I came a week early. Hopefully it will be approved by my appointment. They are going to suppress ovulation and periods for the next 3-6 months while they dicide on the best course of long term action. Why on earth didn’t NaPro try that? 🤷

They also said if this medicine works, and my pain decreases significantly, then I could likely benefit from a complete hysterectomy (removal of the ovaries too.) Since my Endometriosis is persistent and keeps returning after multiple surgeries, I may be a severe enough case to warrant this course of action. And honestly, I’ve had ten long years of grieving my lack of children, so believe it or not, I’m okay with the possibility. Now, of course, they have other options such as long term hormonal use, but this speciality medicine can only be used short term. If the medicine doesn’t work, then it is possible that my severe pain could in fact be caused by the bowel endometriosis. But I’m glad it is an absolute last resort, not just something else to try. 🤷

I am pretty comfortable with this new place! 🙂 They seem to really care about me and are concerned about the debilitating levels of pain I’m experiencing. AND they have more options! 👍
The fact that they care about your pain is really important.
 
Yes, if you’re comfortable, please feel free to send out PM updates. Will he praying for your recovery and health!
 
I’m so happy you are finally going to be treated and hope that you will find some relief for your pain soon. I will pray for you!
 
That sounds like a very helpful and productive visit. This is exactly the sort of thing I was hoping to hear from you! 🙂 I’m so glad you’ve found help.

Please consider keeping us updated, either here or, as someone upthread suggested, in a PM. We care, and really do want the best for you! :flowers:
👍
 
Thank you all :grouphug:

I will post updates here as I have been. I’m not letting negative experiences drag me down and keep me away from CAF. 👍
 
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