I have no relgion left

[Galnextdoor]

where to begin… 1) if the church cannot keep its own house in order who is it to be telling people what to do.
The church is full of human beings with freewill. Intelligence and the capability to exercise freewill are symbiotic. Just like God does not force us to love Him and do the right the thing, the Catholic Church cannot force people to behave in a proper manner. If a particular person knows what is right and continues to go against the doctrine of the church they are ex-communicated. The Church, however, wants to give people every opportunity to repent.
2) obeying a man would be a lot different to obeying God. My experience of ‘papal obedience’ recently has been groups of people attempting to lawyer their way into getting latin masses and telling people of ‘the popes intentions’ Last time I checked* il papa *was a highly intelligent, articulate man, fluent in several languages.
]I’m sorry you feel that people should not question a practice that is not based on doctrine. The Pope has spoken and said it was okay to have Latin Masses. In some parishes, there aren’t any priests who speak Latin. People are human and some times become impatient. Since the Pope is the visual head of the church, we are required to obey him in matters of faith and doctrine. Some proud people, however, feel that the church would be better if it conformed to their desires.

Desires that became disordered from the fall of Adam and Eve. The first sins in the universe were pride and acting on unhealthy desire. I know that you feel that God should have created us perfect and not allowed us to hurt ourselves through sin. But God gave us a freewill instead. Baptism is a way of creating us all over again, wiping away the stain of Original Sin. Unfortunately, we live in a world that refuses to live the way God intended for us to live so we are tempted and give in to sin all over again. Adam and Eve didn’t understand what death was and felt that God was trying to hide knowledge that would keep them from being like Him. They desired to be another god, which was, on their part, a denial of the God’s greatness. It was a refusal to be humble and to appreciate life that God had given them. They chose death by eating from the tree life, the tree of good and evil. Their desires became more disordered so that they thought of each other in terms of what pleasure the other might provide them. Thus the fig leaves were put into place.

God told them that they would die, but they refuse to believe Him. We hurt God over and over. We are so sinful that we, who are simply created beings, could never make reparation for all we do to God. So, He sent us another Being who has always existed and created a body for Him. Jesus suffered to make up for our sin. We should add our suffering to Jesus’ sufferings to help make up for the transgressions against God. Jesus showed us that when you love someone, you make sacrifices for them. If you don’t make sacrifices, then you end up seeking only what pleases you and have no care for anything but self-gratification. Jesus died and came back to life to show us, that even though our forefathers chose death, God will bring us back to life at the end of time. God is a merciful God.
3) I would have to belive in chirst to pray to him and I dont see how kneeling is a requirement for prayer.

Kneeling in front of someone is a humbling position. It shows a desire to make sacrifices for that person. Standing in front of someone is a symbol of equality. That is why kneeling before God is encouraged.
4) Again to obtain confession I would have to express a genuine disire to be forgiven and actually belvie in the sarcarament which considering how I am questioning of the church I dont think I do.

To go to confession, you would have to acknowledge that you have sinned and you are sorry for those sins. Then God will forgive you. Confessing sins out loud to the priest, gives the priest an opportunity to determine if your sorrow is genuine and to give you a penance to partially make up for your sins. There is still a stain that remains and will be removed in purgatory. (You can do plenerary indulgences to have this stain removed, but you can not be attached to sin or sinful habits.) Going to confession also tends to keep you on the right path. It’s humiliating to have to confess a particularly vile sin.

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Ok – so you will die soon. What then, when you wake up and see God?! You’ll be ever so healthy then and alive. What will you say to God?
“Oh – sorry – I didn’t believe in you” ?! “Now I see you are – let’s forget my mistake” ?!

You put away all religious things. So what? Nobody needs “things”. Its your soul you need and you have. You want to put that away too? If if you want to – you can’t for you have been found worthy to live. Then do so. To live without believe is a slow dying – not life.

In the end it’s not you that counts – it won’t be “the others” either, nor would it be your relation to the world as it is.
All that counts for you then at the moment of truth, is GOD AND YOU.
Yes, GOD AND I and nothing else will be the question at that point of mere truth.

That truth you don’t care about, will reach you and ourrun you.

Your opinion won’t count then. Things you red, heard, think etc. are inexistent then. God and you will be on the agenda – nothing else.

If you then exist of nothing but despair and present a heap of disbelieve and wondering about if there actually is no God, you will condemn yourself for not even having lived.

Oh – I agree to some extend, that e.g. the catechism isn’t exactly explanatory but a lot of statements. True. But it’s statements, people have earned across centuries out of their believe.

Believe and understanding will remain a closed door to you, as long as you don’t really WANT to believe and prefer to blame God and all there is, for your misery.
Well, the world doesn’t turn around you. It’s you who has this chance to find God. Take it or leave it. Its your ETERNAL life.
Nothing and nobody will really bother, for all is a matter

BETWEEN GOD AND YOU
alone!
**

 

[CatsAndDogs]

I realise I am very confused and this mightn’t make much sense but has anyone else been here and if so would they have advice?

I would appreciate if people didn’t say ‘just go to mass it will all come back’ as that is essentially saying ‘just accept it and dont worry about all these issues that are clearly important to you’ equally I have been attempting to pray a little but to no avail.

Do you actually WANT to have a religion?

It sounds like what you want is “relief”, and not “religion”.

Until you figure out, basically for yourself, that there actually IS relief in true religion (the only true religion being the Church [Catholic]) you won’t even WANT to have anything to do with (true) religion because your want (need!) for relief will mask all other wants and needs.

You don’t believe in purgatory because you want your suffering instantly relieved, now.

You don’t believe in original sin, because you can’t accept that undeserved suffering should be allowed to happen.

You don’t believe in the immaculate conception of Mary because it assumes original sin.

You don’t believe in transubstantiation, because you see no hope of a glorified meaning to suffering.

Until you can relax enough to become truly docile to the basic dogmas of the Church, the “illusion” that is being presented to you, which is that God is either evil or nonexistent because He allows suffering, especially undeserved suffering, such as yours, will “mask” the actual God and force you into the circular amplifying-feedback-loop-of-despair that you seem to be in.

That is one of satan’s most successful and powerful maneuvers.

You CAN choose to not fall for it. I would suggest that you choose not to fall for it.

Best to 'ya. Gabhaimid buíochas leis an Tiarna Dia, is ceart agus is cóir sin.

Go raibh maith agat.

:shamrock2:

 

[IrishJoe]

God told them that they would die, but they refuse to believe Him.

he lied

Kneeling in front of someone is a humbling position. It shows a desire to make sacrifices for that pers

on.

again sacrifices for a person you dont belive in.

To go to confession, you would have to acknowledge that you have sinned and you are sorry for those sins. Then God will forgive you. Confessing sins out loud to the priest, gives the priest an opportunity to determine if your sorrow is genuine and to give you a penance to partially make up for your sins. There is still a stain that remains and will be removed in purgatory. (You can do plenerary indulgences to have

You don’t believe in original sin, because you can’t accept that undeserved suffering should be allowed to happen.

No, I do not think that people are ‘stained’ for some eejit eating an apple some Xthousand years ago

You don’t believe in the immaculate conception of Mary because it assumes original sin.

Correct but also as it is unnecessary, as there is no basis for it just theory.

You don’t believe in transubstantiation, because you see no hope of a glorified meaning to suffering.

Suffering isn’t glorious, also to say that bread becomes flesh and water becomes wine when they are quite clearly not, stretches it a bit for me.

Until you can relax enough to become truly docile to the basic dogmas of the Church, the “illusion” that is being presented to you, which is that God is either evil or nonexistent because He allows suffering, especially undeserved suffering, such as yours, will “mask” the actual God and force you into the circular amplifying-feedback-loop-of-despair that you seem to be in.

I do not wish to be docile to the Church without good reason. I cannot find those reasons despite looking. Also from the last few posts it seems that the better choice would indeed be to give up for attempting to seek answers only brings more obfuscation, less understanding and a very dogmatic, rules based approach to things

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Dear Irish Joe,
If you are so happy and content with your disbelief – why then do you put yourself out on account of something you don’t believe, with all that energy?

My friends and I for instance, don’t believe in further life in outer space. Would I quarrel with people that believe in intelligent life on other planets? Oh, there are plenty of them. Also lots of other forums and convictions about things I couldn’t care less about, as I don’t believe in it; like witches, esoteric, people walking through walls, disaster when a cat walks across your way from left to right or vice versa, an other superstition lots believe in - and I call humbug.

Ok – you don’t believe in God. So what? The world will go on spinning with or without your opinion and there’s hardly anyone who’d care.

So why on earth are not just you, but in fact all disbelievers in God, so exited about believe in God. They fight with such an energy and sometimes even money (like Richard Dawkins and others do) against believe in God.

But why ??? It doesn’t make any sense.

Can you tell us dear Irish Joe, why you do so? What drives you. Do you know?

Well, St. Katharina of Genoa (*1447, :latin_cross:1510) knew. She said to that matter: “Who disunited with God, will never find his peace.”
Think about it – if that might be true for you too…

Otherwise – just live and be happy – it’s all you’ve got (as you are convinced). We in the meanwhile, live in thankfulness of being united in God, and never are alone. You can have that too – or leave it. Do as you please
**

 

[po18guy]

I do not mean to be rude, but one of your posts spoke to the non-judgemental nature of the Anglican church of your gf and how attractive that is to you. From your attitude towards all those around you who are not behaving the way you want them to behave, I am not sure that’s the place for you.

Then again, I have never understood the concept of ‘non-judgemental’ as I have never met any human being who is non-judgemental.

I don’t know; you sound so much like me ‘back in the day’ I suspect there is more going on here than we will ever really know.

You are in my prayers.

Caused by the very “non-judgmentalism” that the OP favors, the Anglican communion is dissolving like an Alka-Seltzer tablet in water. The profound disagreements over practice have lead many to seek refuge in the very rock, the Catholic Church, that the OP seems to detest.

Yes, prayers are certainly appropriate here.

 

[IrishJoe]

If you are so happy and content with your disbelief – why then do you put yourself out on account of something you don’t believe, with all that energy?

I was raised catholic, I believe in God, the creator. Protestantism on the surface has seemed to lack some of the depth but in a way is better for it I have realised. It doesnt get caught up in the rules but focuses on being a good person. I came to try to give Catholicism one last go, I find certain non essential parts of it interesting.

Desire for what is true is what drives me to answer my question.
Am I disunited with God or rather disunited against a belief system to which I was indoctrinated?

I may just do as I please then as you and a priest have suggested.

The profound disagreements over practice have lead many to seek refuge in the very rock, the Catholic Church, that the OP seems to detest.

Yes I am aware of those issues. Individual Anglican Churches vary immensely. They dont claim to be as right as the RCC who in my experience, are overly obsessed with ‘what the pope really means’ in the motu propium or how xyz is wrong and the mass is irreverant. Catholicism has just seem to have utterly lost the point.

 

[po18guy]

Yes I am aware of those issues. Individual Anglican Churches vary immensely. They dont claim to be as right as the RCC who in my experience, are overly obsessed with ‘what the pope really means’ in the motu propium or how xyz is wrong and the mass is irreverant. Catholicism has just seem to have utterly lost the point.

Consider that we are called to be docile to the Spirit and to submit wholly to God. Well, unfortunately for us mortals, this means we must deny ourselves and search for the truth, no matter how distasteful it seems to us.

Christ founded a Church (first recorded use of the word in Matthew 16) and left Peter in charge. Peter laid hands on and left others to take charge once he was gone. Since the pope sits in Peter’s place, we are called to listen to him.

You think Catholicism has rules? Just try for one week to be an Orthodox Jew! You’ll never complain again. It boils down to this: we must seek the truth and submit to it. If you can find a better source of unchaging truth, investigate it. I believe that you will be back when other faith traditions leave you flat, or empty feeling.

The CC and Orthodox Church are the ONLY Churches with the true presence of Christ. And, He is the very reason for any Church to exist. I have found him in the Catholic Church and have nowhere else to go. My two cents.

Always seek the truth.

 

[beach_walker]

Hey Joe!
First let me apologize, because I can’t read all the comments here, so I am imploring the H.S. to speak through me.
First, been there, done that. What God showed me was the tremendous suffering of John Paul and his great wisdom, He showed me St Augustine and his 2500 books written on the faith. He showed me Mother Teresa, and St. Therese of Lisieux. Try as I could there really was no models of holiness for me to look upon or imitate in any other denomination.
I have a suggestion, the most powerful place to be on this earth, is in the attendance of Holy Mass. Best, is being in a quiet monastery during one of their Masses, or at a religious retreat where the people who attend WANT to be there; thus you will find true piety–I think this is what you are searching. When you are surrounded with true holiness, it is Jesus all around you!! The Spirit of God is overwhelming. Healing happens, Joy comes in, Peace floods your body and soul. Perhaps you are under a spiritual attack of some kind. But, we all are at one time or another. I would like to suggest one more thing, if I may: Get on your knees before the crucifix, preferably in your own private space. Do this several times a day, pouring out your thoughts and concerns. After a bit, a week or so, you will be a different person.
Finally, if noone has recommeded Rome Sweet Home, please get it and read it. The author is Scott Hahn.

God so loves you Joe! He doesn’t want to see you struggle. Yes, suffering and pain is part of our existence, but we can be at a peace-- the peace that only God the Creator of the Universe can give. Consider also, finally again(!) our dear loving Mother, and her tears while she stared into the face of her Son, as he hung on the cross. With her sorrows in mind, ask her Son to enlighten you.

Joe! God loves you! Let go and let Him.

 

[IrishJoe]

You think Catholicism has rules? Just try for one week to be an Orthodox Jew! You’ll never complain again. It boils down to this: we must seek the truth and submit to it. If you can find a better source of unchaging truth, investigate it. I believe that you will be back when other faith traditions leave you flat, or empty feeling.

The CC and Orthodox Church are the ONLY Churches with the true presence of Christ. And, He is the very reason for any Church to exist. I have found him in the Catholic Church and have nowhere else to go. My two cents.

Always seek the truth.

the truth could be that Dawkins and co are right? Has anyone considered that?
In addition I dont belive in the true presence so I guess that means the RCC doesnt have a particular appeal to me.
‘No where else to go’ seems pretty negative.

First, been there, done that. What God showed me was the tremendous suffering of John Paul and his great wisdom, He showed me St Augustine and his 2500 books written on the faith. He showed me Mother Teresa, and St. Therese of Lisieux.

It is unfortunate that you suggest St Therese and Augustine - I have a particular dislike of them, especially Therese.

I have a suggestion, the most powerful place to be on this earth, is in the attendance of Holy Mass. Best, is being in a quiet monastery during one of their Masses, or at a religious retreat where the people who attend WANT to be there; thus you will find true piety–I think this is what you are searching. When you are surrounded with true holiness, it is Jesus all around you!! The Spirit of God is overwhelming. Healing happens, Joy comes in, Peace floods your body and soul.

The last Mass that I was Christmas which I hated. Its all empty ritual to me at the moment. I dont see what difference being in a quiet religious retreat makes aside from the physical and interpersonal atmosphere. If God is supposed to be everywhere that is.

Perhaps you are under a spiritual attack of some kind. But, we all are at one time or another.

Not ruled out, I get quite physically stressed at mass. But unlikely I’m sure the forces of evil have the pope, obama and other people to work on.

I would like to suggest one more thing, if I may: Get on your knees before the crucifix, preferably in your own private space. Do this several times a day, pouring out your thoughts and concerns. After a bit, a week or so, you will be a different person.

Why? A bit of wood with a dead man (Caucasian for that matter) only serves to irritate me. There is no point having it if I dont believe in Jesus. I dont see how supplicating myself to a cross will be useful. And yes after a week I will be different - I will have sore knees and me more idiotic.

God so loves you Joe! He doesn’t want to see you struggle.

I disagree.

Consider also, finally again(!) our dear loving Mother, and her tears while she stared into the face of her Son, as he hung on the cross. With her sorrows in mind, ask her Son to enlighten you.

I’m not considering her.

Let go and let Him.

I’m not preventing him.

 

[IrishDude45]

IrishJoe,

First off, I don't think what you need at the moment are people giving you arguments for things you don't want to believe in. My question for you is there a priest that you feel comfortable with and would be able to just spend a few hours getting this whole lot off your chest? He might be able to give you good, practical advice. You are in my prayers.

Pax

 

[Maedar]

“No, I do not think that people are ‘stained’ for some eejit eating an apple some Xthousand years ago”

Why not?

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

**Just “eating an apple”.
Oh Dear!
Even children in ground knowledge about their religion Jewism, Islam or Christianity – (they all believe in the one and only God of Abraham, Jacob and Isaac) do know, that the event you mention in a what seems to me rather provoking way (sorry), has little up to nothing to do with an apple. (Most likely at the time, apples as we know them, didn’t grow anyway.) The bible often speaks in symbols, as we do too. When you say e.g. “it rains cats and dogs”, you’d never believe these animals fall at you – would you?! Nor would you think, that New Yorkers live in a Big Apple.

No. this “apple” (apple-tree in the middle of this Garden Eden) is as we know, the symbol of disobeying God’s law.

The devil (symbolized by “the old snake”) named it as the longing of “to be like God”. The devils old desire – he transferred upon mankind just created by God. This “Apple” absolutely is he greatest sin one might think of – the same evil doing as Satan himself did, when he was an Angel.

Dear Maedar, - as I recommended my sons when they where small children in the 70ties: “read the bible with your heart”. Then “funny” misunderstandings like:
“I do not think that people are ‘stained’ for some eejit eating an apple some Xthousand years ago”
would never happen

Oh no – first people – symbolized by Adam and Eva, have not at all been idiots “eejit” but people like you and I, who simply couldn’t resist the ever so intelligent threaded or arranged sore temptation of Satan the mightiest of all Daemons, even the Arch Angel Michael awes.
**

 

[Bruno_Schulz]

Hi John the Irishman
might be that tells you something
youtube.com/watch?v=mhAyEZR4gUk
if that too you think is just rubbish
than some of those who care about you, might answer with Luke 9,5:
If they don’t want to hear, shake the dust off your feet when you leave them, as a testimony against them.
Than that was it.

 

[fhansen]

“God told them that they would die, but they refuse to believe Him.”

he lied

Every human being we meet on this planet is slotted for physical death-all die- every moment of this life is a moment closer to that certainty – a situation we believe not originally intended for man but one brought on the day he sinned by rejecting God as his God. And this present world of living death-this highway to the grave- parallels spiritual death-the death of the soul- a state we’re in already because the God man rejected-whom he’s not born in communion with- is the God who gives and sustains life. But the life of the God-created soul or nature within us is not the life allowed expression because another nature dominates us which is ashamed of God and His creation and of our own innocence in general. It’s the part of us that told Adam & Eve they were naked and it’s that part of us that maintains control by keeping it’s distance from God. This holds true even for believers in Him, because the choosing of life, the turning back to God and innocence, is a process.

You’ll not understand Catholic thought unless you understand the concept of original sin- this loss of original innocence- and how it tears us apart and destroys mans true peace. The ugliness of man, the pettiness, gossip, selfishness, murder, back-biting, greed, lying are all signs of a lack of love and of the domination of a nature different or altered from the one God gave us. Man’s dead already-he gets to either finalize it by confirming the rejection of God instituted by Adam & Eve, i.e. by maintaining this separation and finally choosing this death-or he can choose life.
This is why from death we must be reborn.

All that being said, the main obstacle to faith in God lies within us. It’s not logic or Richard Dawkins’ arguments or even suffering. What separates man from God is our own pride-which is really little more than fear of what others think.

 

[Galnextdoor]

Hi IrishJoe,

I just wanted to let you know that no matter how stubborn you become, God loves you. He created you unique and beautiful, regardless of how you feel about Him. He gave you great talents and great gifts. I remembered you during Eucharist Adoration and I’ve been praying for your enlightenment during mass. I get the feeling that you don’t like laws and rules. Every society and institution has laws and rules. The punishment for breaking the rules varies according which rule or law you might have broken. The Irish government instituted laws so that you will live a somewhat peaceful and free life. Some of these laws are based on the ten commandments. Thou shall not kill. Thou shall not steal. Thou shall not bear false witnesses against thy neighbor, etc. Every school has rules that must be obeyed for the school to operate in a smooth and peaceful manner. In any workplace there are a set of rules and laws that must be obeyed if you wish to continue to work there. Because we have a freewill, and some people choose to do the wrong thing, we all have rules that we must live by. The church has rules that are based on what is morally good and the right thing to do. If you follow the rules, you live in freedom and peace, thus attaining heaven at some point. If you don’t follow the rules, you end up miserable for all eternity. Let’s face it, Joe. You have made it clear that you don’t follow the rules, and I can tell that you aren’t at peace. Open your heart and let the Holy Spirit inside. Experience the peace that God has waiting for you. I’ll continue praying for you.

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
You don’t believe in original sin, because you can’t accept that undeserved suffering should be allowed to happen.

No, I do not think that people are ‘stained’ for some eejit eating an apple some Xthousand years ago

We aren’t “stained” by the act of some ancient ancestor eating some fruit. We, both individually and as “humankind”, get to be educated in the consequences of disobedience to the only One worthy of being utterly obeyed (regardless of whether we understand why) because that is the “path” that our ancestors decided to put us on.

Just as you have to deal with your “placement” in the world (your physical location and your other “inherited life circumstances”) by your parents, which you had no say in determining, we have to deal with the “position” that we were put in by our “parents”. “Original sin” is simply this weird position that we’ve each been put in where we are “tasked” to learn from the mistakes of not only ourselves but also from those of our predecessors, many of whom (our predecessors) were “clever” enough to make “mistakes” look like “advantageous behaviors”.

The “stain” referred to is only that which we are trying to “clean” off ourselves, as we have an inherent need (as humans) to be “clean”. We (each) either try to clean our “soiled shirt” (or pants, if you prefer) the correct way, or some incorrect way.

To sin is to try to do so in some incorrect way.

Quote:
You don’t believe in the immaculate conception of Mary because it assumes original sin.

Correct but also as it is unnecessary, as there is no basis for it just theory.

You don’t accept the reasoning of the Church, which does actually prove that it is necessary, only because, once again, to accept the actual reason that it is necessary means an acceptance that original sin exists, which you can’t abide.

Quote:
You don’t believe in transubstantiation, because you see no hope of a glorified meaning to suffering.

Suffering isn’t glorious, also to say that bread becomes flesh and water becomes wine when they are quite clearly not, stretches it a bit for me.

Suffering isn’t glorious, I agree. But the result of suffering, if one understands what suffering is and what it is for, is always glorious.

Actually it’s bread and WINE (plus a bit of water) becomes the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of You-know-Who, and your inability to separate “accidental appearance” from “actual substance” is merely a matter of education (on your part), pointing only to the rather poor catechesis inflicted on you.

Quote:
Until you can relax enough to become truly docile to the basic dogmas of the Church, the “illusion” that is being presented to you, which is that God is either evil or nonexistent because He allows suffering, especially undeserved suffering, such as yours, will “mask” the actual God and force you into the circular amplifying-feedback-loop-of-despair that you seem to be in.

I do not wish to be docile to the Church without good reason.

Of course you don’t! Neither do I. Neither does anyone. I’m no going to be docile to anyone (or any thing) that doesn’t deserve my docile acquiescence. That’s why I’m only docile to the Magisterium of the Church. Only that is worthy of my docility.

The question is: Why is it not worthy of yours, in your opinion?

I cannot find those reasons despite looking. Also from the last few posts it seems that the better choice would indeed be to give up for attempting to seek answers only brings more obfuscation, less understanding and a very dogmatic, rules based approach to things

Why do you have a problem with rules? Do you really know what the rules are (as to matters of faith and morals as given us by the Magisterium), and how much freedom they allow you? Also, do you see that any so-called “freedom” (to act) that is disallowed by “the rules” (according to the Magisterium) is in fact not a “freedom” at all, but an enslavement to some addictive behavior?

Dogmas are just authoritative statements of truth. If you “dislike” dogma, you most likely have a problem with why it’s proclamation is “authoritative” and/or whether it’s “truth” is actually truth.

So, why do you question the authority of the Magisterium, and how do you determine the “truthfulness” of something that others call a “truth”?

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

Quote:
If you are so happy and content with your disbelief – why then do you put yourself out on account of something you don’t believe, with all that energy?

I was raised catholic, I believe in God, the creator.

I’d really like to know what this “I was raised Catholic” means. I was not raised a Catholic, and the more that I here people use the phrase, the more I appreciate not being able to use it myself.

Quite obviously, being “raised Catholic” seems to predispose one to feeling that they were “oppressively victimized by forced indoctrination”. Especially if they were (later) “University Educated”. Perhaps I’m wrong. Actually, obviously I’m wrong, as one can’t very well be “oppressively victimized by forced indoctrination” if one wasn’t forcefully indoctrinated!

Perhaps someone did the “indoctrination/education” in a “bad way” so as to allow the indoctrinee/student to see it that way? Perhaps. But does a bad education of a true doctrine set make truthfulness untrue?

I do wish that those having been “raised Catholic” would simply state what it is that they object to about actually PRESENTLY BEING Catholic, and be more helpful to those desiring to be helpful to them by refraining from using vague “dislikes” such as “I don’t like the rules”, and “I don’t like this dogma and that dogma.”

WHY? Which rules? What ABOUT any particular dogma makes it “unlikable”?

Protestantism on the surface has seemed to lack some of the depth but in a way is better for it I have realised. It doesnt get caught up in the rules but focuses on being a good person. I came to try to give Catholicism one last go, I find certain non essential parts of it interesting.

You probably don’t find it “a bad thing” to be a heretic. Would I be correct in stating that?

Did you REALLY “come to give Catholicism one last go”, or are you simply hoping to be “annoyed” by “those evil/delusional Catholics” so as to have an excuse to “shake the dust from your sandals” and move on to being a protestant?

You will do as you wish, quite obviously. You know full well what your real motivations are in “moving on”, and both you and I are agreed that God will do for you what is best for you, regardless of your choice.

Desire for what is true is what drives me to answer my question.
Am I disunited with God or rather disunited against a belief system to which I was indoctrinated?

Are you looking for what is most true, or what is minimally true?

Are you in search of answers, or efficiency? I understand that stress exhausts people, and that being able to expend the absolute minimum amount of energy to “sufficiently” accomplish a goal seems like a good idea, but in the area of faith and morals that rule (desire for efficiency) doesn’t apply.

I may just do as I please then as you and a priest have suggested.

Of course you will. We all do. And our choices always bring about a greater good, one way or another, even if our choices eventually drag us to hell.

Not that I think you’re heading for hell. That was just a general statement of fact. A greater and more voluminous good will always result from any circumstance, be it good or evil.

:shamrock2:

 

[CatsAndDogs]

the truth could be that Dawkins and co are right? Has anyone considered that?
In addition I dont belive in the true presence so I guess that means the RCC doesnt have a particular appeal to me.
‘No where else to go’ seems pretty negative.

It is unfortunate that you suggest St Therese and Augustine - I have a particular dislike of them, especially Therese.

The last Mass that I was Christmas which I hated. Its all empty ritual to me at the moment. I dont see what difference being in a quiet religious retreat makes aside from the physical and interpersonal atmosphere. If God is supposed to be everywhere that is.

Not ruled out, I get quite physically stressed at mass. But unlikely I’m sure the forces of evil have the pope, obama and other people to work on.

Why? A bit of wood with a dead man (Caucasian for that matter) only serves to irritate me. There is no point having it if I dont believe in Jesus. I dont see how supplicating myself to a cross will be useful. And yes after a week I will be different - I will have sore knees and me more idiotic.

I disagree.

I’m not considering her.

I’m not preventing him.

Do you realize that you’re not being so much un-Catholic today, as anti-Catholic? Consider why you would spend the energy to come here to be anti-Catholic, knowing the reaction that that would get you.

Best to you, welcome to a rather high place in my prayers for others, and expect no more 'harassment" from this, your ineffective educational servant.

:shamrock2:

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**Hi Irish Joe,

I have read every one of your posts.

I have some advise for you. Listen carefully…

Pray! Prayer is the answer to every question. Pray for understanding . Pray for answers. Pray for wisdom. When you are tired, Pray, When you are tempted Pray, When you are angry Pray. Pray …Pray… Pray…

“Seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand” -. Saint Augustine

Do not read the bible: “When the Devil quotes Scriptures, it’s not, really, to deceive, but simply that the masses are so ignorant of theology that somebody has to teach them the elementary texts before he can seduce them.” - Paul Goodman

Trust me, When you have prayed enough you will not have any more questions. They will have all been answered.

And when things happen that you think are a sign of bad things to come remember this:

“A black cat crossing your path signifies that the animal is going somewhere.” – Groucho Marx

I am an old man, I still have questions. So I pray! I question why you have so little faith, so I will pray for you!

My friend Bruno sent me over here.

God Bless**