"I have no religion, I just follow Jesus and His Word"

[Philthy]

reen12:

quote: Philthy

Says who, Philthy?

Says the visible head of the church from the chair of Cephas.
I guess that would be those “led into all truth” by the holy Spirit as Christ promised. They are the ones of whom Christ said “he who listens to you listens to me”. And who he specifically told to “Make disciples of all nations baptizing…and teaching…”

]
The Jesus of the Gospels is unrecognizable, by the time

Saul finishes giving us his thoughts, IMHO.

Unrecognizable?! I see you have your own canoe as well, eh?!

reen12:
But then, Saul is considered a legitimate interpreter of
God’s word, right?

reen12
I guess I would describe him as a transmitter of God’s word, but I will agree with your characterization nonetheless. Could you give me one indication of what you mean by the Jesus of the Gospels is unrecognizable after Paul give his thoughts?

Phil

 

[Philthy]

ahimsaman72:

What you have shown is that the Bible in itself doesn’t answer all the questions about the Christian religion. It wasn’t meant to. It’s design was to spread the gospel of Jesus Christ. That’s my take on it.

Clearly. Clearly your take, that is.

ahimsaman72:

Christ never said - “write this down”.

You mean that’s not recorded in the bible, right?

ahimsaman72:

What He did say was, “Go ye into all the world…”. That was His last command (according to Scripture).

That’s right, he said go, baptize and TEACH everything I have commanded you, and I am with you always until the end of the age. Yup

ahimsaman72:

I don’t believe that gospel has anything to do with anything you wrote down here. I could add lists upon lists of questions that the Bible doesn’t elaborate on.

And your point would be…that the bible wasn’t meant to be our sole source of information on faith and morals? That it doesn’t pass the test of pragmatism? That was my point as well - to Amanda.

ahimsaman72:

Now, if you ask me (which you didn’t) if God wanted us to know all these things and be sure of them - then there’s no way He would leave it in the hands of mere mortals like us.

He doesn’t “leave it in the hands of mere mortals”, he performs through them instead.

ahimsaman72:

I know all the arguments for Christ working through Peter and his successors. It still doesn’t make sense.

It makes perfect sense to me, and its how things were handled in the Davidic kingdom.

ahimsaman72:

If those things you mentioned above were so important then Christ Himself would have spoken about them and made those points clear.

Perhaps he did, and perhaps he didn’t - we don’t know. It’s sophmoric to think Christ would have covered every moral topic ever to present to humanity during the time he was here - some topics would simply not be possible to discuss with the Apostles: like embryonic stem cell research, RU486 or whatever that pill is, etc. It makes much more sense that he would create a living authority to guide his people throughout time…

ahimsaman72:

If I were God I would not leave a man in charge (or a woman).

I guess if your opinion were significant that statement might carry some weight. Don’t feel bad, my opinion is no better…

ahimsaman72:

I might also add that sermons and words spoken by Christ are not at all clear sometimes - not the way they were collected and written down. I would imagine that many of Christ’s words and sermons were distorted or lost.

Peace…

I know they are not clear, that is why I told Amanda “following god’s word” doesn’t quite work and leads to people following their own interpretations of Gods word, which have proven to be contradictory. So you are, in effect agreeing with my original post, right?
All of which continues to support the need for an authoritative teaching body guided to the Truth by the Truth. What am I missing?

Phil

 

[Philthy]

amanda_nicole82:

There is only one way to get to Heaven, and it is not through religious effort.

This is a fantastically ambiguous statement within the broad context of the discussion at hand! I mean no insult - I am quite confident you are unaware of how many loose ends are dangling within it. Consider this analogy and see if it relates to your statement:
You have a pot, a watering can, a water supply and some dirt and you want to grow a flower.

You are hopeless without a seed. Nothing you do works. Your works do nothing!

God comes along and freely gives us a seed which begins to grow.Thank you God!

He also tells us - I’ll provide the Son, but you need to water the plant or it will die!

You don’t water the plant and it dies after a while.

Explanation:

The pot, can, water and dirt - everything we are - is us in our sinful state.
The desire for a flower is the desire for eternal life
The attempt to grow the flower without a seed is works without faith
The seed is God’s gift of Grace and without it there will be no “flower”
Jesus is the Sun - the metaphor was to good to pass up - also necessary
The statement by God is His Word - it tells us what we need to do.
Failing to water the plant is “faith without works” (religious effort in Amanda’s words?)
Watering the plant is the “works” part of eternal life - ignore them, and the plant dies. It grew for a while, but you chose to ignore it and it died.

Any thoughts?

Phil

 

[Philthy]

quote:** NOT** Philthy

Quote:

ITs niave to think by using only one’ own intelligence that you can entirely separate the wheat and chaff in your spare time reading the Bible

reen12:

quote:** Philthy**

Again, says who, Philthy?
You think it’s “niave”…I think it essential.

reen12

Just for the record, Reen, this wasn’t my post you responded to…
Someone else deserves the credit…

Phil

 

[reen12]

Dear Philthy,

quote: Philthy

Just for the record, Reen, this wasn’t my post you responded to…
Someone else deserves the credit…

Oooops
It was Macabees.
You have my abject apology, Philthy. I am usually most
careful with attributions.
Thanks for correcting the error on my part.

reen12

 

[ahimsaman72]

Philthy:

Clearly. Clearly your take, that is.

You mean that’s not recorded in the bible, right?

If I were a disciple and Christ did tell me to write it down, I would write it down and then claim He told me to do it. That’s only logical. Wouldn’t you? But, alas, we don’t see that written in the Bible, therefore it probably never happened. Yup.

That’s right, he said go, baptize and TEACH everything I have commanded you, and I am with you always until the end of the age. Yup

And your point would be…that the bible wasn’t meant to be our sole source of information on faith and morals? That it doesn’t pass the test of pragmatism? That was my point as well - to Amanda.

He doesn’t “leave it in the hands of mere mortals”, he performs through them instead.

And how does He go about doing this? Does He verbally and audibly speak what He wants? Does He transcend space and time and appear to someone? Does He perform magic tricks? Does He answer through divination? Please explain.

It makes perfect sense to me, and its how things were handled in the Davidic kingdom.

Sorry, there was no pope and no magisterium or infallible hieararchy in the Jewish faith. To equate secular appointments (as in the case of the Davidic kingdom) to the religious appointment of the pope is apples and oranges.

Perhaps he did, and perhaps he didn’t - we don’t know. It’s sophmoric to think Christ would have covered every moral topic ever to present to humanity during the time he was here - some topics would simply not be possible to discuss with the Apostles: like embryonic stem cell research, RU486 or whatever that pill is, etc. It makes much more sense that he would create a living authority to guide his people throughout time…

And since Christ did not cover them what makes you think it is okay for mortals to try to cover them all? It is not sophmoric. It is only right. If Krishna expects something from me or any other god then they better tell me. If not, it is not right to condemn me for doing something wrong. If my child does something wrong and I punish them for it yet I didn’t tell them before hand what I expect, then I am the one to blame, not them.

I guess if your opinion were significant that statement might carry some weight. Don’t feel bad, my opinion is no better…

Since God gave me an inquiring mind and definitive reason unlike any other creature on earth, then I suppose I should use it, no? I don’t like the ideology that would have people believe it is not right to question or use their God-given intelligence to come to conclusions. My opinion certainly matters and so does yours and everyone else’s. Opinions are a product of the boundless mind entrusted to us by the Creator. Don’t you think?

I know they are not clear, that is why I told Amanda “following god’s word” doesn’t quite work and leads to people following their own interpretations of Gods word, which have proven to be contradictory. So you are, in effect agreeing with my original post, right?
All of which continues to support the need for an authoritative teaching body guided to the Truth by the Truth. What am I missing?

Phil

If you are looking for absolute truth to answer questions, then Scripture is insufficient. But also is Tradition and reason alone. My point is that what we have in the world is relative (conventional) truth. Our senses deceive us into thinking wrong views. Absolute truth cannot be found by the methods described above: Scripture, Tradition, Reason.

Every person must find their own way in life. Religion is an expression of relative truth in a relative world by relative, mortal people. If such were not the case we would be all immortal people all expressing the SAME absolute truth in a perfect world. Last time I checked this was not the case.

Peace…

 

[oat_soda]

Absolute truth cannot be found by the methods described above: Scripture, Tradition, Reason.

Every person must find their own way in life. Religion is an expression of relative truth in a relative world by relative, mortal people. If such were not the case we would be all immortal people all expressing the SAME absolute truth in a perfect world. Last time I checked this was not the case.

this is something B16 or JPII of blessed memory has addressed considering it’s a very philosophical subject. JPII’s encyclical on moral theology -veritas splendor comes to mind, and so does dominus iesus.

i think the bottom line is that what makes us human or created in the image of God is that we have an intellect which allows our minds to be conformed with reality, which is truth itself. the source of this truth is God who’s essence is truth and reality. we can know something absolutely like the intentional killing of an innocent person always wrong and marriage is for one man and one women. our very existance and the cosmos bears witness to these laws of nature which are inscribed in our hearts because they are true, as is our longing for God.

to say every person must find their own way is true in as much as we are unique and God has a unique plan of salvation for all of us. but christianity is not relative, and neither is Jesus who is the truth and the life and the way. he is the focal point and origin of our existance and the creation of the universe.

only in the catholic faith can we fully answer questions like, why am i here or how do i live my life, or what does it mean to be a man or woman.

the problem is of concupiscience. we have this inhierent nature which can go against the natural law set forth by God. only in Christ’s death and resurection are we relased from this slavery to our darkened intellect and will. this is why there is division and evil in this world, not because absolute truth doesn’t exit.

 

[ahimsaman72]

oat soda:

this is something B16 or JPII of blessed memory has addressed considering it’s a very philosophical subject. JPII’s encyclical on moral theology -veritas splendor comes to mind, and so does dominus iesus.

i think the bottom line is that what makes us human or created in the image of God is that we have an intellect which allows our minds to be conformed with reality, which is truth itself. the source of this truth is God who’s essence is truth and reality. we can know something absolutely like the intentional killing of an innocent person always wrong and marriage is for one man and one women. our very existance and the cosmos bears witness to these laws of nature which are inscribed in our hearts because they are true, as is our longing for God.

to say every person must find their own way is true in as much as we are unique and God has a unique plan of salvation for all of us. but christianity is not relative, and neither is Jesus who is the truth and the life and the way. he is the focal point and origin of our existance and the creation of the universe.

only in the catholic faith can we fully answer questions like, why am i here or how do i live my life, or what does it mean to be a man or woman.

the problem is of concupiscience. we have this inhierent nature which can go against the natural law set forth by God. only in Christ’s death and resurection are we relased from this slavery to our darkened intellect and will. this is why there is division and evil in this world, not because absolute truth doesn’t exit.

While I disagree with you, this is the most sincere, thoughtful, deliberate, and congenial post I’ve ever seen from you.

Of course I see absolute reality as the uncreated, unborn ceasing - nirvana and the law of cause and effect with respect to this world and moral dilemmas. If I hit someone with a baseball bat I could cause damage or death to the individual - therefore it is wrong to hit someone with a baseball bat. If I do kill someone, then I have produced negative, damaging karma that I will have to pay for.

Peace…

 

[amanda_nicole82]

Philthy:

This is a fantastically ambiguous statement within the broad context of the discussion at hand! I mean no insult - I am quite confident you are unaware of how many loose ends are dangling within it. Consider this analogy and see if it relates to your statement:
You have a pot, a watering can, a water supply and some dirt and you want to grow a flower.

You are hopeless without a seed. Nothing you do works. Your works do nothing!

God comes along and freely gives us a seed which begins to grow.Thank you God!

He also tells us - I’ll provide the Son, but you need to water the plant or it will die!

You don’t water the plant and it dies after a while.

Explanation:

The pot, can, water and dirt - everything we are - is us in our sinful state.
The desire for a flower is the desire for eternal life
The attempt to grow the flower without a seed is works without faith
The seed is God’s gift of Grace and without it there will be no “flower”
Jesus is the Sun - the metaphor was to good to pass up - also necessary
The statement by God is His Word - it tells us what we need to do.
Failing to water the plant is “faith without works” (religious effort in Amanda’s words?)
Watering the plant is the “works” part of eternal life - ignore them, and the plant dies. It grew for a while, but you chose to ignore it and it died.

Any thoughts?

Phil

The fact is that you and I have different beliefs on many aspects of Christianity. I believe the Bible is sufficient and fully equipt (as you might say sol scriptura). I believe that religious effort (works) will not get you to Heaven while they may enhance one’s Christianity unless of course it takes the place of faith. I believe that it is not necessary to claim a particular religion to do works for the Lord, as He desires us to do. I believe in accepting Christ into your heart and recieving Him as your personal Lord and Savior, as I did when I was 16. I live for the Lord because He first loved me, and I live my life in fear of the Lord (fear = respect). Please respect that I am not going to discuss and debate my beliefs with you, as I have done that in other threads and it only ends with no one convincing anyone to believe otherwise, and that is not my intention anyway. The truth is, I prayed to the Lord for wisdom on how to reply to your posts and He convicted me right then. Because this is a Catholic forum website and should be a place for Catholics to discuss their beliefs in order to lift one another up through Christ’s love. I originally came here to try to understand my husband’s Catholic family because I respect them. It’s not my place to just come in here and start telling everyone they are wrong, as if I am holier than thou (which I am not I am just a humble servant of the Lord as most of you are I’m sure). So please accept my apology, it is only my desire to life up my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ (we are all part of one Christian family and like it or not I love all of you as my Christian family ). The truth is all that matters is Christ, believing in Him and accepting the sacrifice that God made for us, and then repenting and living our lives for Him. Who am I to say that someone is right or wrong. I can only pray to the Lord to give all of us wisdom to better understand Him and His desire for each of our lives.
Blessings in Christ,
Amanda

 

[E.E.N.S]

ahimsaman72:

When you speak of God - you are speaking of absolute truth (truth which doesn’t change). But when you speak of man - you must speak of relative truth (because man does change). Wouldn’t you agree that man and God are on different planes of existence? In Buddhism it is similar. There is phenomena and noumena. Different planes of existence.

I don’t know where you are coming from when you talk of God not being real and the Holy Spirit fantasy and what-not. I never said those things. I simply don’t view those things the way you do. I also never said the Holy Spirit couldn’t work through mankind. I said it doesn’t makes sense for Him to do that. He is immortal and unchanging, however, man by his own created nature is ever-changing and mortal. To entrust a human or human institution doesn’t make sense…

First off let me say that you seem to be a very intellegent person, and I believe that your post deserves a good response, probably better than my “distracted-with-work” mind can coherently give to you at this moment. Let me also say this; Buddhism would be relatively hard to disprove, while Christianity on the other hand would be relatively easy - all one would have to do is disprove Christ’s resurrection (though this part would actually be quite hard, but we’ll get to that another time.) Anyway, you present the common thought of the world, the idea of God becoming man, suffering and dying - then choosing that same very limited man (humans) to build His Church here on earth, etc. However, this ‘folly’ of the godman/cross/Church/etc is precisely the difference between the wisdom of the world, and the divine Wisdom (or you could even say Wisdom Incarnate), this ‘folly’ is actually the truest form a virtue to which the world is blinded by its own fallen nature…
Arg, I am not going the direction that I originally intended, and I have to go to a meeting in less than a minute - hope this all makes some sense…I’ll be back shortly.
God bless!

 

[reen12]

A most interesting discussion.

quote: oat soda
only in the catholic faith can we fully answer questions like, why am i here or how do i live my life, or what does it mean to be a man or woman.

This view will come as a surprise to Judaism.

Look at the Christian positions:

-Jesus was Messiah
-through his passion and death, He opened the gates of heaven
-we are justified in the sight of God, because He took our
sins on Himself

Judaism:

-waiting for a fully human Messiah, the building of the
3rd Temple, and the establisment of the Kingdom of God=all the nations will recognize the God of Israel

-God* already* forgives sins, and people of all nations who
follow the commandments for non-Jews, already go to
the World to Come. “There is a place in the World to
Come for the righeous of all nations.”

So, the gates were never “closed”, God forgives sin,
and men and women for 3500 years before Jesus knew
who God was, who they were, what was expected of
them, and where they were going…the World to Come.
[BTW, I noted the last time I went to Mass, recently,
that the expression “the World to Come” is part of the
Mass.]

So where was the “problem” that needed to be “solved”,
according to Christianity?

Many of the points made in this thread are moot, IMHO.
They discuss a problem that didn’t exist.
And, no, Judaism has no concept of Original Sin from
which we must be saved.

Wish I had known all of this when I was 12. I would
have hurried to the nearest synagogue.

reen12

 

[Philthy]

amanda_nicole82:

The fact is that you and I have different beliefs on many aspects of Christianity. I believe the Bible is sufficient and fully equipt (as you might say sol scriptura). I believe that religious effort (works) will not get you to Heaven while they may enhance one’s Christianity unless of course it takes the place of faith. I believe that it is not necessary to claim a particular religion to do works for the Lord, as He desires us to do. I believe in accepting Christ into your heart and recieving Him as your personal Lord and Savior, as I did when I was 16. I live for the Lord because He first loved me, and I live my life in fear of the Lord (fear = respect). Please respect that I am not going to discuss and debate my beliefs with you, as I have done that in other threads and it only ends with no one convincing anyone to believe otherwise, and that is not my intention anyway. The truth is, I prayed to the Lord for wisdom on how to reply to your posts and He convicted me right then. Because this is a Catholic forum website and should be a place for Catholics to discuss their beliefs in order to lift one another up through Christ’s love. I originally came here to try to understand my husband’s Catholic family because I respect them. It’s not my place to just come in here and start telling everyone they are wrong, as if I am holier than thou (which I am not I am just a humble servant of the Lord as most of you are I’m sure). So please accept my apology, it is only my desire to life up my fellow brothers and sisters in Christ (we are all part of one Christian family and like it or not I love all of you as my Christian family ). The truth is all that matters is Christ, believing in Him and accepting the sacrifice that God made for us, and then repenting and living our lives for Him. Who am I to say that someone is right or wrong. I can only pray to the Lord to give all of us wisdom to better understand Him and His desire for each of our lives.
Blessings in Christ,
Amanda

Hi Amanda! :yup:

You seem to have a beautiful, pure faith - God bless you. I don’t judge you at all, and I consider you a sister in Christ - it is my own worthiness that concerns me at times.
I didn’t really expect you to address my posts in the manner of exchange that I am accustomed to - Im pretty left brained (analytical) and you have a beautiful, personal, right brained approach to life. My guess is (and apparently God agrees with me!) that it simply is not your “cup of tea” to debate intellectually. It isn’t what God gave you to share/not your “talent” - you are meant to share your love of Christ and what He has done for you. That is beautiful. You should, however, recognize that there are times when questions of substance regarding faith and Chrisian conduct require concrete answers (remember the little list I gave you of questions?) which are not explicitly, unambiguously covered in the bible. This happened during biblical times when Paul (and Peter) would reprimand and shepard the churches and it has happened throughout the history of Christianity, and it is still happening today.

blessings,

Phil

 

[ahimsaman72]

E.E.N.S.:

First off let me say that you seem to be a very intellegent person, and I believe that your post deserves a good response, probably better than my “distracted-with-work” mind can coherently give to you at this moment. Let me also say this; Buddhism would be relatively hard to disprove, while Christianity on the other hand would be relatively easy - all one would have to do is disprove Christ’s resurrection (though this part would actually be quite hard, but we’ll get to that another time.) Anyway, you present the common thought of the world, the idea of God becoming man, suffering and dying - then choosing that same very limited man (humans) to build His Church here on earth, etc. However, this ‘folly’ of the godman/cross/Church/etc is precisely the difference between the wisdom of the world, and the divine Wisdom (or you could even say Wisdom Incarnate), this ‘folly’ is actually the truest form a virtue to which the world is blinded by its own fallen nature…
Arg, I am not going the direction that I originally intended, and I have to go to a meeting in less than a minute - hope this all makes some sense…I’ll be back shortly.
God bless!

Thank you for your kind words.

Yes, when you compare the validity of Buddhism and Christianity you could see easily the truths of Buddhism, but not easily those of Christianity. I suppose because Christianity deals with experiences (such as immaculate conception, God-man, resurrection, etc) that are not concrete. They are out of this world experiences.

However, in Buddhism the concepts are more practical - more believable, if you will. Mainly because Buddhism is about observing natural phenomenon - its causes and effects and striving for non-causes and non-effects. It is easy to see the suffering in the world and the impermanence of all things. It is also relatively easy to see the truth of dependent origination or interdependent life. This goes beyond the thread topic, but just wanted to elaborate on the direction you were going.

To be clear, I’m not comparing/contrasting the different religions to make one inferior and the other superior. They each are good in their own ways and have helped millions of people live good, holy lives full of compassion.

Peace to you…

 

[E.E.N.S]

ahimsaman72:

Thank you for your kind words.

Yes, when you compare the validity of Buddhism and Christianity you could see easily the truths of Buddhism, but not easily those of Christianity. I suppose because Christianity deals with experiences (such as immaculate conception, God-man, resurrection, etc) that are not concrete. They are out of this world experiences.

However, in Buddhism the concepts are more practical - more believable, if you will. Mainly because Buddhism is about observing natural phenomenon - its causes and effects and striving for non-causes and non-effects. It is easy to see the suffering in the world and the impermanence of all things. It is also relatively easy to see the truth of dependent origination or interdependent life. This goes beyond the thread topic, but just wanted to elaborate on the direction you were going.

To be clear, I’m not comparing/contrasting the different religions to make one inferior and the other superior. They each are good in their own ways and have helped millions of people live good, holy lives full of compassion.

Peace to you…

I know your intentions weren’t to compare/contrast the different religions for matters of superiority.
And to be clear on my behalf, I am a convert to Catholicism as of 2001. (Though my path of study and leadway into the Church probably started in 1999.) Do I believe it to be true? Yes, with every fiber of my being!

Ahimsaman, thank you for kind mannerism in your discussion with me…I wish that I currently had more time to discuss with you (and others) aside from my brief posts here and there, but unfortunately I actually have some work to do here at the office, imagine that! lol

 

[Philthy]

Hi ahimsaman!

First things first - I own the blue post, go find your own color.

ahimsaman72:

If I were a disciple and Christ did tell me to write it down, I would write it down and then claim He told me to do it. That’s only logical. Wouldn’t you? But, alas, we don’t see that written in the Bible, therefore it probably never happened. Yup.

You have reached attainment of “definite maybe”, nothing further. I have no idea what your point is, even if your contentions are true.

ahimsaman72:

And how does He go about doing this? Does He verbally and audibly speak what He wants?

I believe He has. He also operates within our consciences.

ahimsaman72:

Does He transcend space and time and appear to someone?

I believe He has

ahimsaman72:

Does He perform magic tricks?

No, but He does miracles

ahimsaman72:

Does He answer through divination? Please explain.

He is effective(as in “has an effect”) through ordinary events unbeknownst to you or me.

ahimsaman72:
Sorry, there was no pope and no magisterium or infallible hieararchy in the Jewish faith.
To equate secular appointments (as in the case of the Davidic kingdom) to the religious appointment of the pope is apples and oranges.

Are you certain the Davidic Kingdom was purely secular and not secular and religious simultaneously? What was the seat of Moses - secular or religious? And what was its function?

ahimsaman72:

And since Christ did not cover them what makes you think it is okay for mortals to try to cover them all? It is not sophomoric. It is only right.

Its only right that Christ should have covered all topics for all time during his earthly life?? If you say so. I don’t find that any more convincing than his establishing a Church to exist for all time; to be guided by his Spirit; operating in the time frame of the issues as they present themselves to mankind. That way the Church can speak on an issue like embryonic stem cell research during the time when it has meaning. How exactly are you proposing Christ would have covered this topic in the intertestamental period?

ahimsaman72:
If Krishna expects something from me or any other god then they better tell me. If not, it is not right to condemn me for doing something wrong. If my child does something wrong and I punish them for it yet I didn’t tell them before hand what I expect, then I am the one to blame, not them.

As I said, He speaks to your conscience.

ahimsaman72:
Since God gave me an inquiring mind and definitive reason unlike any other creature on earth, then I suppose I should use it, no? I don’t like the ideology that would have people believe it is not right to question or use their God-given intelligence to come to conclusions. My opinion certainly matters and so does yours and everyone else’s. Opinions are a product of the boundless mind entrusted to us by the Creator. Don’t you think?

Faith and reason should not contradict and you should use your reason - I didn’t claim otherwise. Your opinion, if unsupported by sound reason and/or experience, is limited in both its importance and accuracy.

ahimsaman72:

Absolute truth cannot be found by the methods described above: Scripture, Tradition, Reason.

Tradition is not used to “find” truth, it is meant to communicate it.

ahimsaman72:

Every person must find their own way in life. Religion is an expression of relative truth in a relative world by relative, mortal people.

Is this an absolute claim or a relative one?

ahimsaman72:
If such were not the case we would be all immortal people all expressing the SAME absolute truth in a perfect world. Last time I checked this was not the case.
Peace…
The scenario you describe above I call “heaven”: immortal, glorified, unequivocal, absolute, unified, perpetual Truth.

Peace to you also friend,

Phil

 

[ahimsaman72]

Philthy:

Hi ahimsaman!

First things first - I own the blue post, go find your own color.

You have reached attainment of “definite maybe”, nothing further. I have no idea what your point is, even if your contentions are true.

I believe He has. He also operates within our consciences.

I believe He has

No, but He does miracles

He is effective(as in “has an effect”) through ordinary events unbeknownst to you or me.

Are you certain the Davidic Kingdom was purely secular and not secular and religious simultaneously? What was the seat of Moses - secular or religious? And what was its function?

Its only right that Christ should have covered all topics for all time during his earthly life?? If you say so. I don’t find that any more convincing than his establishing a Church to exist for all time; to be guided by his Spirit; operating in the time frame of the issues as they present themselves to mankind. That way the Church can speak on an issue like embryonic stem cell research during the time when it has meaning. How exactly are you proposing Christ would have covered this topic in the intertestamental period?

As I said, He speaks to your conscience.

Faith and reason should not contradict and you should use your reason - I didn’t claim otherwise. Your opinion, if unsupported by sound reason and/or experience, is limited in both its importance and accuracy.

Tradition is not used to “find” truth, it is meant to communicate it.

Is this an absolute claim or a relative one?

The scenario you describe above I call “heaven”: immortal, glorified, unequivocal, absolute, unified, perpetual Truth.

Peace to you also friend,

Phil

Ha ha, okay the blue can be yours!

Thanks for your insightful post. I see your points, while still disagreeing with you. No matter, we can still be friends and carry on important, passionate responses to life’s ebbs and flows which winds its way through our respective religions. I found Christianity to be fulfilling and uplifting for many, many years and believe it will serve you well for many years also.

I rather agree with HH the 14th Dalai Lama when he says that all religions are profitable because all (the five major ones) turn bad people into good people (mostly). He has said that his religion is simple. His religion is kindness. I would like to be able to say the same with my life and philosophy - kindness, compassion and goodwill.

Peace to you…

 

[ahimsaman72]

E.E.N.S.:

I know your intentions weren’t to compare/contrast the different religions for matters of superiority.
And to be clear on my behalf, I am a convert to Catholicism as of 2001. (Though my path of study and leadway into the Church probably started in 1999.) Do I believe it to be true? Yes, with every fiber of my being!

Ahimsaman, thank you for kind mannerism in your discussion with me…I wish that I currently had more time to discuss with you (and others) aside from my brief posts here and there, but unfortunately I actually have some work to do here at the office, imagine that! lol

The pleasure is all mine. I hope to see you in future discussions. I believe you have much to contribute.

Peace…

 

[E.E.N.S]

ahimsaman72:

The pleasure is all mine. I hope to see you in future discussions. I believe you have much to contribute.

Peace…

The same goes for you!

Peace to you as well.

 

[stpaulphilip]

When I first became a Christian I was baptized in the Baptist church. I began reading the Scriptures and found that the Baptist church did not teach all of the truth. Slowly I was lead to the Catholic Church. I was CONVINCED I had found the true church, especially after having my feelings and Biblical findings confirmed by the coming home network and EWTN, etc… However, the Holy Spirit has prohibitted me from joining. A couple years later, and wondering why the delay, I have realized that the Roman Catholic Church and all the splinters of Christianity are silly. Roman Catholicism worships Mary, no matter how much they say. The doctrines of Rome teach that one can place one’s trust in THINGS like relics and scapulars and even the Eucharist for salvation. Burry a statue of St. Joseph in your yard and sell your home, pray for the intersession of a saint to help you find your keys or heal your loved one. Most Catholics follow these things and never change internally. You must be Born Again, a change from the inside out, a renewing of your mind. The only thing that saves in JESUS CHRIST. All you need to do it TRUST IN HIM. All you need to do is repent and turn to Christ and be born again. He had DONE IT ALL. Roman Catholicism is a new form of Judaism. A way to trap people in superstitions. I have respect for monks and nuns and celibate preists, but I could not become Roman Catholic because of these things. The only thing that matters is Faith working in love. Rituals won’t save. The truth is in the Holy Bible, that’s all. And it does NOT teach Apostolic succession and the Primacy of the Pope and the infalibility of the magisterium. No way. I have studied it thoroughly. Jesus Christ hears you, no matter who you are, no matter what you’ve done, no matter what Church you belong to.

 

[Genesis315]

stpaulphilip:

However, the Holy Spirit has prohibitted me from joining.

Or Jack Chick from reading the rest of your post. Let’s see if we can clear some things up for ya

Roman Catholicism worships Mary, no matter how much they say.

You need to learn the difference between “latria” and “dulia” and “hyperdulia.”
The worship due only to God is latria, and He’s the only one who gets it. We give Mary hyperdulia, the highest form of veneration due to created beings. Sure, do some Catholics worhip Mary as God? Probably, but they are heretics.

The doctrines of Rome teach that one can place one’s trust in THINGS like relics and scapulars and even the Eucharist for salvation.

This is false. Some Catholics are superstitious about scapulars, but they are heretics. No one says a relic can save you that I’ve ever heard. If they do, they are heretics. Now, relics can have graces and such attached to them. In Scripture we see a cloth from St. Paul healing people. The same with the bones of some OT prophet (Elisha I think, but I could be wrong). Likewise, in Numbers people look at a bronze snake and are protected.

As for the Eucharist, it is NOT a thing. It IS Christ. See John 6 to see how eating His flesh is related to salvation. As St. paul says, those who do not dsisecern the Body and Blood of Christ in the Eucharist, eat and drink condemnation on themselves.

Burry a statue of St. Joseph in your yard and sell your home, pray for the intersession of a saint to help you find your keys or heal your loved one.

Again, superstition. However, saints can intercede for anything. I don’t see what’s wrong to ask someone to pray that you find something you have lost.

You must be Born Again, a change from the inside out, a renewing of your mind.

Through water and Sprirt. The CA homepage has a good tract on this.

The only thing that saves in JESUS CHRIST.

Agreed.

All you need to do it TRUST IN HIM. All you need to do is repent and turn to Christ and be born again. He had DONE IT ALL.

You need to have faith in Him and obey His commands.

Roman Catholicism is a new form of Judaism.

Again, kind of. It is the fulfillment of the OT. Jesus did not abolish, the old religion, He fulfilled it. Christianity is the same religion as OT Judaism–same God, same prophets, same Messiah (except he’s come now). The modern Jews by rejecting Christ have strayed from the Truth.
Check out the Prophecy in Malachi 1:10-11. Is this a false prophecy? Of course not. So where is the pure oblation being offered up everywhere from sun up to sundown by Gentiles after the closing of the temple? Why, the Catholic Mass of course.

A way to trap people in superstitions. I have respect for monks and nuns and celibate preists, but I could not become Roman Catholic because of these things.

So, some heretical Catholics keep you from the true faith?? That’s weak.

The only thing that matters is Faith working in love. Rituals won’t save.

No rituals don’t. But loving Christ means obeying His commands and taking part in the Sacraments He Himself instituted.

The truth is in the Holy Bible, that’s all.

You’ll have a hard time proving this statement. It’s a doctrine of men invented in the 1500s. Scripture doesn’t even support “Bible only.”

And it does NOT teach Apostolic succession and the Primacy of the Pope and the infalibility of the magisterium.

Ummm, yeah it does. We see the Apostles quickly replacing Judas. Why bother if there was no succession?

Thou art Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church and the gates of Hell will not prevail.
The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth.
This is in Scripture.

No way. I have studied it thoroughly.

Obviously not thoroughly enough. You like the Eunach in Acts (and the rest of us) need a teacher to help explain it.

Jesus Christ hears you, no matter who you are, no matter what you’ve done, no matter what Church you belong to.

Oh, i definitely agree here.

If you have any more questions on specific doctrines, feel free to start some threads. People here can be great helps