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RosslynV
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Pope Benedicts resignation was unpresidented. (Sp?) IMO it wasn’t Christ’s intention to have a Pope emeritus and a reigning Pope.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
It was not unprecedented. In fact a saint did it as well. How is it that you can presume to know Christ’s intention with the Church and in specific the Chair of Peter? You claim a greater understanding of the papacy and Christ than HH Pope Emeritus BXVI?
You must have some fascinating books on the life of Christ that I need to read that are of greater understanding than BXVI’s theology.
Lets be careful what we say about the men and indeed the office of the Papacy. Those currently in it, and those who held it at one time.
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Hoosier_Daddy
Guest
Hmmmm you are not criticizing Saint John Paul the second are you? Turn the affairs of the Church BACK over? to the hierarchy to run as they see fit? When has this happened before?
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Exiled_Child
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To my ears, it sounded like he was nonchalantly joking around. I certainly pray so, at least! I know he’s 77, but he seems so vibrant and full of life to me. I particularly loved the part where he said he planned on drinking yerba mate every day for his nerves!
Jesuit tea is my favorite drink, too!
Our Father is from Argentina, after all!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerba_mate
Jesuit tea is my favorite drink, too!Our Father is from Argentina, after all!
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yerba_mate
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johnmann
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At the end of his trip to Korea, Pope Francis looked absolutely exhausted. Granted, even a young person would be but it must be especially tiring for someone in their 70’s.
I think that, so long as the resignation is due to the fact that they’re not longer physically able to meet the demands of the office and think someone else would do a better job, I don’t see it causing any problems at all. Some are concerned that resignation gives the impression that the office is a human one, not a divinely instituted one. Perhaps somewhat, but I think that concerned is outweighed by the fact that he thinks someone else would do a better job.
I think that, so long as the resignation is due to the fact that they’re not longer physically able to meet the demands of the office and think someone else would do a better job, I don’t see it causing any problems at all. Some are concerned that resignation gives the impression that the office is a human one, not a divinely instituted one. Perhaps somewhat, but I think that concerned is outweighed by the fact that he thinks someone else would do a better job.
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chero23
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Amen, although I understood why pope Benedict xvi resigned. Was it hurtful sure, but yet the man knew that new blood needed to take the post.I’m of the opinion that the Pope should serve for life. I can understand His Holiness Pope Francis wanting to resign in a few years but like some others on here I do not believe that resignation should be the norm. I would hope the successor to our current Pope will serve for life. Currently though, Pope Francis is doing a humble and great job guiding the church that Christ founded. God bless our Pope!
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robertericleech
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Older people often like to talk about how they won’t be around much longer. They’re usually the ones who live to be like 98.
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RosslynV
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Hoosier Daddy, thanks for the spelling correction…the purpose of an internet forum, for the most part, is to offer up an opinion. That’s my take on the situation and you are free to give a rebuttal. You didn’t mention much of substance to refute my opinion. I don’t know the exact numbers but I would guess that 95% of all popes have died during their respective papacies. So this would be the traditional and I dare say the normal way a pope passes on his reign. In scripture, Jesus said to Peter, and I’m paraphrasing, you are Peter and upon this rock I shall build my Church. Jesus used the singular. Moreover, Jesus didn’t say, you are peter, and you are john, and upon such rocks I build my church.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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I can’t respond until I know what it is you are saying. Are you saying that BXVI wen’t against the Will of God when he resigned? Are you claiming to be more in tune with theological issues such as this that you supplant your opinion over that of the Church? Because the Church, the Church of Christ disagrees with your assessment. It is not given to BXVI AND Francis, right now it is Just the successor to Peter, Francis. Or of you of the mind that there are two reigning Popes. That actually has happened more often than you think…
Either way I think you should clarify what it is you are trying to say because from where I sit it looks awful critical of some very very wise and Holy men. The leaders of your faith…
But you do have some company.
Dante, a theologian I respect and like very much put Celestine V in hell for abdicating the papacy. Our Church however has decided to declare him a saint. Hmmmmmm who was right? Dante, for anger and political reasons putting him in hell, or The Bride of Christ who infallibly made him a saint in heaven.
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Brandon_Cal
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Hoosier Daddy was correcting your assertion that papal resignation was unprecedented by providing an example of a prior Pope resigning. “Unprecedented” means that something has never been done before. Since Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI was not the first Pope to resign, your statement was incorrect.
Wouldn’t this just demonstrate that the Lord willed his Church to have a single, authoritative shepherd at any given time? Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI has resigned his office, and Pope Francis is the sole individual holding that office today. Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI retains the title “Pope” out of respect, but it carries with it zero doctrinal, dogmatic, or ecclesiastical privileges. Benedict XVI is simply a Bishop among Bishops (who just so happens to have at one time been the Bishop of Rome).
Having checked the Wikipedia article for “Papal Resignation”, I notice that the earliest such resignation was in 235 AD with the most recent being 1415 AD (keeping aside Benedict XVI’s resignation). To me that indicates there’s good, consistent precedent for the resignation of Popes (even if such is not normative). Furthermore, the same article cites both the 1917 and 1983 Codes of Canon Law where resignation of a Pope is mentioned. That such is mentioned at all in the Code of Canon Law, even long after Papal resignation became essentially a thing of the past leads me to believe that the Catholic Church has always understood that Popes can and do resign.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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I would agree that it is not and should not be the “norm” But is it acceptable, and permissible by Christ? I would say so! So would Saint Celestine. your 95 percent means nothing. ~ .5% 1/266 Popes are from the southern half of the world.
I am not sure that means that Jesus does not want an Argentinian Pope. There is much wrong with your logic here. But I would also like to note that many popes died young. Many were murdered or martyred, poisoned and stabbed. JPII was shot. 77- 100 year old popes have not been the norm. Rarely, especially in the early Church were popes ever even given the luxury of thinking about abdicating the Papacy. It is a different world now, but perhaps not so much different. I think Pope Francis stands as good a chance as any for being a martyr. He is in public often and lives in a time where Christians are being killed and chopped in half for being Christian…Perhaps we are entering a time where regardless of precedent, many popes will not have the luxury of making this decision.
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Hoosier_Daddy
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Yes, not only that but many diocese have a Bishop Emeritus residing in them right now. Mine does. And that Bishop is not -co Bishop with the current one. Much like the Bishop of Rome does not share the office with the Bishop Emeritus of Rome.
Precedent in deed! Why the Church actually requires Bishops to submit a resignation!
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Muzhik
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Well, the nice thing about predicting death, disaster, and catastrophe is that eventually you’ll be right!
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twf
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The Pope is a bishop. As the Holy Father himself points out, it was historically unheard of for bishops to resign. The institution of the “bishop emeritus” is relatively new. The fact that a reigning pope can resign, reminds us that while the Bishop of Rome holds a very special and privileged position within the Church Universal, as head of the College of Bishops, he is still ultimately a bishop. There is no fourth degree of holy orders.
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RosslynV
Guest
Hoosier daddy, that resignation should not be the norm is something we can agree upon.
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Tigg
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I recently read an article in which I wholeheartedly agree. Altho he has many duties and demands, the pope is by far more important in who he is, than in what he does. The symbol of his office is primary and as long as he is breathing, he fulfills that office in some capacity. Thou art Peter and upon this ROCK I will build my Church. Rock, symbolizing strength, unity, perpetuity and consistency. It would be disturbing to me if this would become the norm and more than slightly reminiscent of secular office when one grows too weak to do the job albeit without benefit of spiritual considerations.
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Joe_5859
Guest
Did everyone notice what Pope Francis says about papal resignation? He says that Pope Benedict’s action created an institution (of the pope emeritus) and is not simply an exception to the rule.
Now, this isn’t any infallible dogmatic statement from Francis, but I think it is telling that this is what Francis is thinking.
Personally, I don’t see this as that big of a deal and I think we do the faith a disservice by exaggerating the significance of it. At one point in time, my diocese had not just one but two living bishop emerituses (emeriti?
). No one was confused as to who the bishop of the diocese was.
I think we need to give people a little credit. Having retired popes is not going to weaken the hierarchy or lead to mass apostasy. It’s just going to give the current pope someone to talk to who understands what he is going through.
Remember, papal succession is not so strict that our theology cannot handle retired popes. We have had popes step down. We have had years go by in between popes (because they couldn’t decide on a new one). If we can reconcile those things with papal succession, then we can get used to the idea of having a pope emeritus.
Now, this isn’t any infallible dogmatic statement from Francis, but I think it is telling that this is what Francis is thinking.
Personally, I don’t see this as that big of a deal and I think we do the faith a disservice by exaggerating the significance of it. At one point in time, my diocese had not just one but two living bishop emerituses (emeriti?
). No one was confused as to who the bishop of the diocese was.I think we need to give people a little credit. Having retired popes is not going to weaken the hierarchy or lead to mass apostasy. It’s just going to give the current pope someone to talk to who understands what he is going through.
Remember, papal succession is not so strict that our theology cannot handle retired popes. We have had popes step down. We have had years go by in between popes (because they couldn’t decide on a new one). If we can reconcile those things with papal succession, then we can get used to the idea of having a pope emeritus.
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Holly3278
Guest
Oh wow. I hope he has much longer to live than that but then again, I am open to God’s holy will. When God decides to take him home then that is what God decides.
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pbmbfl
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I agree with this, i do not think it is horrible for a Pope to resign, it has happened before but just as the above mentions, it seems more like a secular thing for pope to resign one after the other, like they can simply just give up, keep in mind i am not criticizing any Bishop or the Pope, i just hope it doesn’t ever become the norm.
Its sort of an odd thing to say, but its a beautiful thing when a reigning pope passes, the way it all seems, i just remember Saint John Paul and his suffering and how he chose to let us know about it and see that he dealt with it and fought on, he didn’t resign.
I absolutely do hope that resignation does not become normal.
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bekalc
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People bring up JP II but I would point the Pope is more than a figure who gives Mass. It’s a real job that involves running a 1.2 billion member Church. One wonders how much Saint John Paul’s illness effected him in the last years and I have heard talk it did. Pope Benedict saw first hand. It’s a tough job that one should be able to do.
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