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mercygate
Guest
Whoa! FCEGM. Are these your own words (I’m impressed!)? If not, whose are they?
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Mickey
Guest
Wow! That was wonderfully articulated. I loved the summary!
As a protestant who converted to Catholicism once told me: “Protesantism was grades K-12 for me–and Catholicism is my undergraduate degree, masters, doctorate and beyond”!
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scylla
Guest
If then you are saying that salvation is a gift, we believe the same, it is a gift.
I was using Jack Chick as an example, we can say Dave Hunt if you want, I am not sure which interpretation you agree with. My point is that, it is easy to reject, debate or just pigeon hole beliefs. I ask you to outline which salvation interpretation of the Bible you agree with so we can better understand you.
Please show how historically consistant your beliefs are and how this was understood by early Christians. A truth should be consistantly supported which I see in Catholicism. If I am missing something then feel free to assert your position and explain the passages that we have presented that seem contrary to your point of view.
Are you saying that mortal sin doesn’t matter? Or that God wont allow us to commit mortal sin, (we are puppets) if we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.
God Bless
Scylla
I was using Jack Chick as an example, we can say Dave Hunt if you want, I am not sure which interpretation you agree with. My point is that, it is easy to reject, debate or just pigeon hole beliefs. I ask you to outline which salvation interpretation of the Bible you agree with so we can better understand you.
Please show how historically consistant your beliefs are and how this was understood by early Christians. A truth should be consistantly supported which I see in Catholicism. If I am missing something then feel free to assert your position and explain the passages that we have presented that seem contrary to your point of view.
Are you saying that mortal sin doesn’t matter? Or that God wont allow us to commit mortal sin, (we are puppets) if we accept Jesus as our Lord and Saviour.
God Bless
Scylla
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LSK
Guest
And faith without works is dead. works alone do not guarantee salvation, but faith alone does not either. Not everyone who says 'Lord Lord" will enter into the kingdom of heaven.
Mt 7:21 - nor lord lord but he who does the will of father
Mt 19:16-17 to have life, keep the commandments
Jn 14:21 - he who keeps my commandments loves me.
The Catholic Church is not in conflict with Holy Scripture. Remember, as a fallen- away Catholic (you were baptized, you remain a Catholic), you were taught that we are people of the WORD and not people of the Book. As it says in 1 Cor.10:11-12, those thinking they are secure, may fall. That is why we have Tradition, Holy Scripture and the obligation to work to remain in a State of Grace.
Hope you come home soon. You are missing out of the fullness of Christian faith by remaining away from the banquet table.
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Mijoy2
Guest
Hi Kaycee,
When pressed on this I have found evangelical preachers such as Hank Hannegraff will state that if a Christian repeadily performs some grievious sin – adultry / murder/ violence against others…etc, they have what Hannk refers to as a “said faith” as opposed to a “true faith”. I’ve heard Hannk say htis time and time again. Therefore the self-defined Christian may in fact not be saved because his faith is not true (according to Hank).
To this I counter; isn’t the Catholic perspective much the same? Any Christian, regardless they be Protestant or Catholic, if they truly love God they will not commit “mortal” sin. Or, if they do, will feel badly and repent.
If the Protestant commits grevious sin he is said to have a “said faith” therefore is possibly not really saved. If the Catholic commits a grevious sin he is said to have lost his sanctified grace. In both cases why would someone who truly loves God commit such a sin without repenting?
To me, and I know many disagree, it’s a case of you say to-may-to and I say to-mart-o.
–Mike
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Mijoy2
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michaelgazin
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If you are going to say that faith is a gift and not an action, then I will say the same thing. A “living faith” one that produces works of love Gal 5:6, is a gift to me, not a work of my own at all.
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kaycee
Guest
Actually Eph 2:8-9 Faith is also part of the gift
Phil 1:29 For to you it has been granted on behalf of Christ, not only **to believe ** in Him, but also to suffer for His sake
People are free to choose anything within the realm of their nature.
Can a hippo choose to fly? Can someone “dead in trespasses and sin” choose anything to please GOD? Mans sin nature will not allow him to choose God.
1 Cor 2:14
“But the natural man **does not receive ** the things of the Spirit of God, for **they are foolishness to him: nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. **”
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E.E.N.S
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“you are saved by works, and not by faith alone…” “…faith without works is dead.” James 2:14-26
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deb1
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YOu are going to have to explain sloo…oowly to me.
We have all agreed that it is grace that first bring us to God. Correct? But does this mean that you see faith as not being an act? Do you believe that we have the choice to accept or reject God’s grace?
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E.E.N.S
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Um, to use your own quote (read it again…)
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DeFide
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Can man’s fallen/sinful nature allow him to **reject **God? That is the key question.
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FCEGM
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Benedicite and Mickey (sounds like an upscale Irish Pub 
) -
Thank you. It would be nice to be able to claim such an intellect as formed that presentation, but I happily give sole credit to my spiritual director whom I think you can tell was well-trained by the Dominicans.
God bless!
Frances
) -Thank you. It would be nice to be able to claim such an intellect as formed that presentation, but I happily give sole credit to my spiritual director whom I think you can tell was well-trained by the Dominicans.
God bless!
Frances
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kaycee
Guest
I believe salvation and true saving Faith are given as gifts to the believer.YOu are going to have to explain sloo…oowly to me.
EPH 2:8-9 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
If we have the ability to choose Gods salvation we boast about our choice! “I was able to choose GOD.” “I Chose Jesus” “I am more spiritual than those that are not Christians” “I was able to judge the right way” "I figured it out by myself’ etc…
Paul says we dont understand and None seek God. If none seek God, who can say that they did seek and chose correctly?
Rom 3:9
What then? **Are we better ** than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.”
Eph 2:1-7 "1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, " Can those that were dead(spiritually) make correct spiritual judgements?
Rom 5:6
“For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly.” Can spiritually helpless people make correct spiritual choices?
Rom 5:10
“For if while **we were enemies ** we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.”
Enemies of God dont choose to love God on their own without Gods call.
Eph 2:1-7 “1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked … 3 Among them **we too all ** formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.”
Do children of wrath choose to love God? Can the Dead choose to do anything?
Phil 1:29
"For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake, " Our belief has been granted!
1 Cor. 1:23-24
“but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.”
Why is Christ wisdom to some, but foolishness to others? The effective call of God! That is why this chapter will end with, "But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, so that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord.” “Who became to us.” To who? The elect! Not those who were wiser, or smarter, or more spiritually sensitive! To God’s elect!
John 5:37 "“All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”
John 5:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45 "It is written in the prophets, `AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
- No one comes to the Son unless he is drawn by the Father
- All that are drawn have heard and learned from the Father
- Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father come to the Son
- All that the Father gives to the Son will come to the Son.
Colossians 3:12 “So, as those who have been chosen of God, holy and beloved, put on a heart of compassion, kindness, humility, gentleness and patience;”
2 Thes. 2:13 God hath from the beginning **chosen ** you to salvation, through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth, whereunto he called you by our gospel.
Rom 8:33
"Who can bring an accusation against God’s elect? God is the One who justifies. "
John 15:16
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you. I appointed you that you should go out and produce fruit, and that your fruit should remain, so that whatever you ask the Father in My name, He will give you.”
John 15:19
“If you were of the world, the world would love you as its own. However, because you are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, this is why the world hates you.”
Rom 11:7
What then? What Israel is seeking, it has not obtained, but those who were chosen obtained it, and the rest were hardened;
Sorry, for the length. But I LOVE GODS WORD! Praise HIM forever!
My Peace with GOD is in HIS hands!John 27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.”
Peace
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michaelgazin
Guest
This is pretty flawed reasoning. No one *can *seek God apart from His grace. No one can do anything period, apart from His Grace.
We indeed have a choice, and that choice is a verb, it is something we must do.
Romans 11:22-23
22 Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness; otherwise you too will be cut off. 23 And even the others, if they do not persist in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again.
Faith is a work. Faith is a gift. It isn’t either/or. It is both/and.
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Kay_Cee
Guest
Just coming into this thread to point out that although kaycee and I have similar user names, we are not the same person, so please do not confuse us.
I am a practicing Roman Catholic woman. And, BTW, I have true peace. I found it in the grace Jesus grants us in the Church.
I am a practicing Roman Catholic woman. And, BTW, I have true peace. I found it in the grace Jesus grants us in the Church.
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BarbaraTherese
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Hi Michael. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_4_14.gif …indeed 1 Cor. 10:12 "Therefore let any one who thinks that he stands take heed lest he fall." (taken from your Post) and quoting St. Paul yet again … " “be humble to one another…” Phillipians2 Verse 3…and I certainly found kaycee’s Post anyway as very humble!..which this my Post lacks!!! We all seem to think we are standing…and we all ought to beware of spiritual pride and falling!!!
We are all sinners…and as St. Paul says yet again “…and what can save me, nothing but the Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ”.
I have told The Lord that if I am in Heaven then he better not let me know a single soul at all is in Hell for it would surely not then be Heaven to me!!!..our way, Michael, is not of knowledge, but of love and loving attitudes towards each other and all. And may The Lord pardon me in my own vanity and pride !!!
I rejoice kaycee that you find inner Peace…The Peace of Christ…may it remain with you and descend upon all His creatures in His Abundant and Loving Mercy for all creation for whom He was Incarnated, lived and died and then rose again! …Let us pray…
Regards Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/36/36_1_67.gif
Bethany Sth. Aust.
Sunday 26.6.05 5.50am
" He is Risen!..and goes before you INTO GALILEE"
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kaycee
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Without being regenerated that is the only choice he will make!
Man is born an enemy of God and is not neutral to start.
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RyanL
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If I understand what you’re saying, you’re completely wrong. We are made in the image and likeness of God, but we are wounded by Original Sin such that we have the concupiscience by which we will invarriably choose the wrong path when presented with a moral choice. We are, by nature, good. We are, by Sin, fallen. Fallen does not mean bad! We are worth saving - if we are completely worthless, base, or sinful (completely at enmity with God), God could not love us.
God bless,
RyanL
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kaycee
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The clause “who thinks he stands” looks at the problem of presumptive self-confidence or over-confidence. Not over-confidence in the Lord, but in ourselves: presumption.
I pray I am being seen to give GOD all the GLORY! If salvation is 100% of GOD how can i boast? I am dependent totally on GOD for all things! Without God, what can I offer? Rom 7:18
“For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.”
1 Cor 1:29-31 "so that no man may boast before God. 30 But **by His doing ** you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption, 31 so that, just as it is written, “LET HIM WHO BOASTS, BOAST IN THE LORD.”
Rom 11:19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in. Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. " The branch is cut off because of **unbelief ** not haughtyness or self-confidence.
Let me ever Boast in CHRIST!
2 Cor 3:4-5 "Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, "
Eph 4:14-22 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, so that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace,
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