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Ann_Cheryl
Guest
Sound like work to me.
- Status
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Eden
Guest
Kaycee -
Could you please tell me the differences between someone who has “peace” and someone who has “true peace”?
Could you please tell me the differences between someone who has “peace” and someone who has “true peace”?
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DeFide
Guest
I’m glad that you’ll at least admit that man can reject God and his graces. I’ll leave the other stuff aside for now.
So then, how do you know that you personally can never reject God or his graces? Did you receive an unmistakeable supernatural revelation?
Shouldn’t you work out [by not rejecting graces] your salvation in fear and trembling? (Phil 2:12) And if not, who is this verse intended for?
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michaelgazin
Guest
So do you recognize however, the way in which someone becomes grafted in? Through faith. In this way, a gentile can be radically grafted into Christ Himself. Quite amazing. What is even more amazing, is that Paul is quick to note that *even those *who become radically grafted into Christ can be cut off!
This is not eternal security that Paul speaks of. Christ will never leave us, but we can leave Christ because we are sinful humans with free will. At best, we can have a moral assurance that we will not stray from Christ, but only God, in His omniscience, has absolute assurance as to our salvation.
You mention presumption. This is exactly what eternal security is, it is the act of presuming that we know our own future and God’s judgement for us. Paul specifically says that unbelief results in separation from Christ, *even if *they believed in Him before. We all, at any moment, can choose to disbelieve, which would result in our loss of salvation. While this is highly unlikely for most people here, it is a choice we can make, which renders eternal security meaningless. Only God can know with absolution if we will stand firm in the faith until the end. No human has absolute assurance.
Amen!
R
reggie
Guest
Jesus “My sheep hear My voice, I know them and they follow me, and I give them eternal life and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them from My hand.”
Why do all who believe in faith alone always quote this passage and emphasize the “they will never perish” and ignore the “they will follow me” before it. They will follow me would seem to indicate an action by the sheep who hear His voice. To follow Christ is to imitate Him. What did Christ do? He forgave sins, he comforted the afflicted, healed the sick etc… Why is it so hard to accept that when we hear Christ’s voice, we are moved to faith, filled with the Spirit and then do as Christ did? Not only must we suffer, we must try to alleviate the suffering of others. We do not boast of our good works as if they came from our own grace, we boast of Jesus from whom all good things come.
As for losing your salvation because you did not follow Christ by doing good works…I reiterate the post above which cites Mt 10:37-42, which ends with the line"and whoever gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones in the name of a disciple truly I tell you, none of these will lose their reward.
So I ask you, what reward would one lose if one did not do so small a deed as give a cup of cold water? What is the reward that would be lost?
Further, I ask you, if we are not to respond in any way to Jesus except to declare our faith in Him, what is the point of prayer, reading Scripture, confessing sin, or anything that strengthens our faith and makes us holier? Why not just say, "Wow, cool, I don’t have to do anything. Jesus has done it all and my only obligation is to say thanks and carry on as usual. "
What doesn’t make sense usually isn’t true." (Judge Judy)
Why do all who believe in faith alone always quote this passage and emphasize the “they will never perish” and ignore the “they will follow me” before it. They will follow me would seem to indicate an action by the sheep who hear His voice. To follow Christ is to imitate Him. What did Christ do? He forgave sins, he comforted the afflicted, healed the sick etc… Why is it so hard to accept that when we hear Christ’s voice, we are moved to faith, filled with the Spirit and then do as Christ did? Not only must we suffer, we must try to alleviate the suffering of others. We do not boast of our good works as if they came from our own grace, we boast of Jesus from whom all good things come.
As for losing your salvation because you did not follow Christ by doing good works…I reiterate the post above which cites Mt 10:37-42, which ends with the line"and whoever gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones in the name of a disciple truly I tell you, none of these will lose their reward.
So I ask you, what reward would one lose if one did not do so small a deed as give a cup of cold water? What is the reward that would be lost?
Further, I ask you, if we are not to respond in any way to Jesus except to declare our faith in Him, what is the point of prayer, reading Scripture, confessing sin, or anything that strengthens our faith and makes us holier? Why not just say, "Wow, cool, I don’t have to do anything. Jesus has done it all and my only obligation is to say thanks and carry on as usual. "
What doesn’t make sense usually isn’t true." (Judge Judy)
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reggie
Guest
I have to also state that I have a real problem with the man is inherently bad attitude. I don’t believe that that is a Catholic teaching. I believe that is Manicheism or Gnosticism. Please, someone more knowledgeable of the CCC correct me if I am wrong.
Man was created by God in His own Image to know Him, serve Him and love Him. God saw what He had created and it was good.
Only good can come from God. It is due to free will that Adam and Eve sinned. God knew that when He gave us free will, sin would come, but in His great wisdom and goodness, even before He formed the heavens and the earth, the plants, animals and man, He planned for our salvation in the person of Jesus. We may sin but we are destined for glory through faith in Jesus, by the grace of God. We, however must cooperate, we must turn our hearts, minds, bodies and souls to Him. We must love Him in all we do, think and say. That would indicate that our actions, once we have received the gift of faith and grace should be all for the glory of God. Being man though, we all fall short and must continually seek His grace and forgiveness. Let us not forget also, that we must open our heart to this gift(another action on our part) God does not force Himself on anyone.
Man was created by God in His own Image to know Him, serve Him and love Him. God saw what He had created and it was good.
Only good can come from God. It is due to free will that Adam and Eve sinned. God knew that when He gave us free will, sin would come, but in His great wisdom and goodness, even before He formed the heavens and the earth, the plants, animals and man, He planned for our salvation in the person of Jesus. We may sin but we are destined for glory through faith in Jesus, by the grace of God. We, however must cooperate, we must turn our hearts, minds, bodies and souls to Him. We must love Him in all we do, think and say. That would indicate that our actions, once we have received the gift of faith and grace should be all for the glory of God. Being man though, we all fall short and must continually seek His grace and forgiveness. Let us not forget also, that we must open our heart to this gift(another action on our part) God does not force Himself on anyone.
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reggie
Guest
Sorry, don’t mean to hijack this thread but…
It is in man’s nature to seek God. His law is written on the hearts of all men. That is why throughout the history, all people have sought for Truth and the “meaning of life”. Man is not born the enemy of God. Sin is the enemy of God and man. And while no one seeks God, no one is righteous and no one does good seems to say that man is bad, it is more a passage saying God is good. For it is His law written on the heart of man that causes man to seek Him. It is His love and grace that causes man to do good. But that doesn’t mean that man is bad, it means that God is good for He created us for Himself and has given us the gift to overcome our sinful nature and seek Him.
It is in man’s nature to seek God. His law is written on the hearts of all men. That is why throughout the history, all people have sought for Truth and the “meaning of life”. Man is not born the enemy of God. Sin is the enemy of God and man. And while no one seeks God, no one is righteous and no one does good seems to say that man is bad, it is more a passage saying God is good. For it is His law written on the heart of man that causes man to seek Him. It is His love and grace that causes man to do good. But that doesn’t mean that man is bad, it means that God is good for He created us for Himself and has given us the gift to overcome our sinful nature and seek Him.
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Eden
Guest
From the CCC:
Providence in a Fallen World
The Church believes that God cares for all, wishes all to be saved, invites all to holiness, and would have His kingdom and His peace present even now on earth. The world, however, is deeply flawed. There has been no failure on the part of God. Men and women are made in the image of God, but they are not God. The freedom God gives them is not the perfect freedom of God; it is a freedom which can be abused, a freedom in which love of God and one another can be brushed aside by pride. Though all have sinned, time and again, God in his mercy still calls them to inherit a blessing, and indeed He makes the occurrence of sin the occasion for even greater gifts. The world then, has a double aspect. In its sin and sorrow it mirrors the frailty and malice of creatures who resist their Creator God. In its grandeur and in the grace that yet penetrates it, however, the world continues to show the boundless bounty of God. This goodness we often see too dimly. To grasp reality in truth, we need most of all to see in the light of Christ.
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Superstar905
Guest
Kaycee…I don’t think you want to start playing the scripture game with Catholics. You must recognize all these with your Faith Alone belief.
Scripture
I. Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification
James 2:24 - the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.” Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by “faith alone.” To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).
Heb. 11:6 - faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.
Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.
Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 - the faith we have must be a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God. Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.
Psalm 51:17 – this means we need a “broken and contrite heart,” not just an intellectual assent of faith. Faith in God is only the beginning.
John 3:36; Rom. 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Thess. 1:3; 2 Thess. 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb. 5:9; cf. Rev. 3:10; Ex. 19:5 – this faith must also be an “obedient faith” and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.
2 Cor. 10:15 – this faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works.
2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. This examination of conscience is a pious Catholic practice. Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.
Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.
James 1:22-25 - it’s the “doers” who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.
James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.
James 2:19 - even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.
James 2:20 - do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Good works in God’s grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.”
James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.
Scripture
I. Faith Justifies Initially, but Works Perfect and Complete Justification
James 2:24 - the phrase “faith alone” (the Greek “pisteos monon”) only occurs once in the Bible. “Man is justified by works and NOT faith alone.” Unlike what many Protestant churches teach, no where in Scripture does it say that man is justified or saved by “faith alone.” To the contrary, man is not justified by faith alone. In Catholic theology, a person is justified by faith and works acting together, which comes solely from God’s divine grace. Faith alone never obtains the grace of justification (Council of Trent, chapter 8, canon 9). Also, the word “justified” (dikaiow) is the same word Paul uses for justification in Rom. 4:3 in regard to Abraham (so Protestants cannot argue James is not referring to “justification” in James 2:24 unless they argue Paul wasn’t in Rom. 4:3 either).
Heb. 11:6 - faith is indeed the minimum requirement without which we cannot please God. But this is just the beginning of the process leading toward justification. Faith alone does not justify a person. Justification is only achieved by faith and works, as we see below. Also, this gratuitous gift of faith from God also includes the grace of hope and love the moment the person is justified.
Eph. 2:8-9 – Paul teaches us that faith is the root of justification, and that faith excludes “works of law.” But Paul does not teach that faith excludes other kinds of works, as we will see below. The verse also does not say we are justified by “faith alone.” It only indicates that faith comes first. This, of course, must be true, because those who do works outside of faith are in a system of debt, not of grace (more on that later). But faith alone does not justify. A man is justified by works, and not by faith alone. James 2:24.
Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38, 3:19, 17:30 - the faith we have must be a repentant faith, not just an intellectual faith that believes in God. Repentance is not just a thought process (faith), but an act (work) by which we ask God for His mercy and forgiveness.
Psalm 51:17 – this means we need a “broken and contrite heart,” not just an intellectual assent of faith. Faith in God is only the beginning.
John 3:36; Rom. 1:5, 6:17; 15:18; 16:26; 2 Cor. 9:13; 1 Thess. 1:3; 2 Thess. 1:11; 1 Peter 2:7-8; Heb. 5:9; cf. Rev. 3:10; Ex. 19:5 – this faith must also be an “obedient faith” and a “work of faith.” Obedience means persevering in good works to the end.
2 Cor. 10:15 – this faith must also increase as a result of our obedience, as Paul hopes for in this verse. Obedience is achieved not by faith alone, but by doing good works.
2 Cor. 13:5 – Paul also admonishes us to examine ourselves, to see whether we are holding to our faith. This examination of conscience is a pious Catholic practice. Our faith, which is a gift from God, must be nurtured. Faith is not a one-time event that God bestows upon us.
Gal. 5:6 – thus, the faith that justifies us is “faith working through love,” not faith alone. This is one of the best summaries of Catholic teaching. Faith and love (manifested by works) are always connected. Faith (a process of thought) and love (an action) are never separated in the Scriptures. Cf. Eph. 3:17; 1 Thess. 3:6,12-13; 2 Thess. 1:3; 1 John 3:23; Rev. 2:4-5,19. Further, all faith (initial and perfected) are gratuitous gifts from God, and not earned or merited by any human action. God effects everything, both the willing and the achievement. But God also requires human action, which is necessary to perfect our faith.
James 1:22-25 - it’s the “doers” who are justified, not the hearers. Justification is based on what we do, which means “works.” Notice that there is nothing about “false faith.” The hearers may have faith, but they need to accompany their faith by works, or they will not be justified. See also Rom. 2:13.
James 2:17,26 - James clearly teaches that faith by itself, if it has no works, is dead. Works are a cause, not just an effect, of our justification because good works achieve and increase our justification before God. Scripture never says anything about “saving faith.” Protestants cannot show us from the Scriptures that “works” qualify the “faith” into saving faith. Instead, here and elsewhere, the Scriptures teach that justification is achieved only when “faith and works” act together. Scripture puts no qualifier on faith. Scripture also never says that faith “leads to works.” Faith is faith and works are works (James 2:18). They are distinct (mind and action), and yet must act together in order to receive God’s unmerited gift of justification.
James 2:19 - even the demons believe that Jesus is Lord. But they tremble. Faith is not enough. Works are also required.
James 2:20 - do you want to be shown, you shallow man, that faith apart from works is barren? Good works in God’s grace are required for justification. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about “saving faith.”
James 2:22 - faith is active with works and is completed by works. It does not stand alone. Faith needs works to effect our justification.
S
Superstar905
Guest
James 4:17 - in fact, James writes that the failure to do works is a sin! So works are absolutely necessary for our justification.
James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the “works” to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).
James 1:27 - another example of “works” is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.
James 2:25 - another example of “works” is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.
Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab’s fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22-25, Rahab alone acted and was saved. This is faith in action.
James 2:18 - to avoid the truth of the Catholic position that we are justified by both faith and works, Protestants argue the justification that James is referring to in James 2 is “before men” and not “before God.” Scripture disproves their claim.
James 2:14 - James asks, “Can faith save him?” Salvation comes from God. This proves the justification James is referring to is before God, not men.
James 2:19 - also, James reminds us that even the demons believe and tremble. This refers to our relationship with God, not with men. Thus, our justification that requires works and not faith alone relates to our status before God, not men.
James 2:21 - James also appeals to the example of Abraham. Abraham’s justification refers to his position before God, not men. This proves justification is before God, not men.
Acts. 10:35 – Peter teaches that anyone who fears the Lord and does what is right is acceptable to Him. It is both fear and works, not fear alone.
Rom. 2:7,10 - to those who by patience and good works will be granted glory and honor and peace from the Lord.
Rom. 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).
Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.
Rom. 6:16 - obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good “work,” an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.
2 Cor. 9:8 - Paul teaches that God will bless us so that we may provide in abundance for “every good work.” Good works are encouraged to complete our faith.
Eph. 6:8 - whatever good anyone does will receive the same again from the Lord. God rewards good works done in grace.
Phil. 4:17 – Paul says “I seek the fruit which increases to your credit.” Fruits (good works) increase our justification. Paul says these works increase our “credit,” which is also called “merit.” These merits bring forth more graces from God, furthering increasing our justification as we are so disposed. But the fruits, works, and merits are all borne from God’s unmerited and undeserved mercy won for us by Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:8 - good deeds are excellent and profitable to men (just like the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Tim. 3:16). Good deeds further justify us before God. This verse should be contrasted with Titus 3:5, where we are not saved by works of righteousness “we have done.” As further discussed below, in this verse what “we have done” refers to a work of law or obligation for which we seek payment. But verse 5 also says the “washing of regeneration” in reference to baptism saves, which is a work of grace, for which we are rewarded by God in Christ. There is a distinction between “works of law or obligation” and “works of grace.” 1 Peter 2:7-8; John 3:36 - shows that belief in Jesus means obeying Jesus. Having faith means being faithful, which requires good works as well. Hence, obeying Jesus means doing works of love, not just having faith alone.
James 2:15-17 - here are the examples of the “works” to which James is referring - corporal works of mercy (giving food and shelter to those in need).
James 1:27 - another example of “works” is visiting orphans and widows in their affliction. Otherwise, if they do not perform these good works, their religion is in vain.
James 2:25 - another example of “works” is when Rahab assisted the spies in their escape. Good works increase our justification and perfect our faith.
Joshua 2:9-11 - Rahab’s fellow citizens had faith in God, but in Joshua 6:22-25, Rahab alone acted and was saved. This is faith in action.
James 2:18 - to avoid the truth of the Catholic position that we are justified by both faith and works, Protestants argue the justification that James is referring to in James 2 is “before men” and not “before God.” Scripture disproves their claim.
James 2:14 - James asks, “Can faith save him?” Salvation comes from God. This proves the justification James is referring to is before God, not men.
James 2:19 - also, James reminds us that even the demons believe and tremble. This refers to our relationship with God, not with men. Thus, our justification that requires works and not faith alone relates to our status before God, not men.
James 2:21 - James also appeals to the example of Abraham. Abraham’s justification refers to his position before God, not men. This proves justification is before God, not men.
Acts. 10:35 – Peter teaches that anyone who fears the Lord and does what is right is acceptable to Him. It is both fear and works, not fear alone.
Rom. 2:7,10 - to those who by patience and good works will be granted glory and honor and peace from the Lord.
Rom. 2:13 – for it is not the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law who will be justified. Paul is referring to the “law of Christ” in Gal.6:2, not “works of the law” in Rom. 3:20,28; Gal. 2:16; 3:2,5,10; and Eph. 2:8-9. The “law of Christ” is faith in Christ and works based on grace (God owes us nothing) and “works of the law” mean no faith in Christ, and legal works based on debt (God owes us something).
Rom. 4:5-6 – to him who does not work but believes, his faith is accounted to him as righteousness, like David, who was righteous apart from works. Here, Paul is emphasizing that works must be done in faith, not outside of faith. If they are done outside of faith, we are in a system of debt (God owes us). If they are done in faith (as James requires), we are in a system of grace (God rewards us). Hence, Paul accepts the works performed under God’s forbearance (grace) in Rom. 2:7,10,13 (see also Rom. 14:10-12; 1 Cor. 3:12-17; and 2 Corinthians 5:10) which lead to justification and eternal life. These verses have nothing to do with “faith alone.” Paul uses the word “alone” three times in Rom. 4:12,16,23, but never uses it with “faith.” Certainly, if he wanted to teach “faith alone,” he would have done so.
Rom. 6:16 - obedience leads to righteousness. Obedience is a good “work,” an act of the will, which leads to righteousness before God.
2 Cor. 9:8 - Paul teaches that God will bless us so that we may provide in abundance for “every good work.” Good works are encouraged to complete our faith.
Eph. 6:8 - whatever good anyone does will receive the same again from the Lord. God rewards good works done in grace.
Phil. 4:17 – Paul says “I seek the fruit which increases to your credit.” Fruits (good works) increase our justification. Paul says these works increase our “credit,” which is also called “merit.” These merits bring forth more graces from God, furthering increasing our justification as we are so disposed. But the fruits, works, and merits are all borne from God’s unmerited and undeserved mercy won for us by Jesus Christ.
Titus 3:8 - good deeds are excellent and profitable to men (just like the Old Testament Scriptures in 2 Tim. 3:16). Good deeds further justify us before God. This verse should be contrasted with Titus 3:5, where we are not saved by works of righteousness “we have done.” As further discussed below, in this verse what “we have done” refers to a work of law or obligation for which we seek payment. But verse 5 also says the “washing of regeneration” in reference to baptism saves, which is a work of grace, for which we are rewarded by God in Christ. There is a distinction between “works of law or obligation” and “works of grace.” 1 Peter 2:7-8; John 3:36 - shows that belief in Jesus means obeying Jesus. Having faith means being faithful, which requires good works as well. Hence, obeying Jesus means doing works of love, not just having faith alone.
S
Superstar905
Guest
How then do you reconcile these Kaycee???
V. Jesus and Apostles Teach that Works are Necessary for Justification
Matt. 5:2-11 - Jesus’ teaching of the beatitudes goes beyond faith - being pure, merciful, and peacemakers are all good works. They are acts of the will that are necessary for a right relationship with God.
Matt. 5:16 - Jesus confirms this by teaching, “let your light shine before men that they may see your ‘good works’ and give glory to God.” Good works glorify God and increase our justification before the Father.
Matt. 5:39-42 - give your striker the other cheek, give away your cloak, and go with him two miles. This faith in action, not faith alone.
Matt. 5:44-47 - this means even loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us. Love is a good work, an act of the will.
Matt. 6:12 - forgive us our sins, not by how much faith we have, but as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Matt. 7:19-23 - just saying “Lord, Lord” and accepting Jesus as personal Savior is not enough. We must also bear the fruit of good works.
Matt. 19:16-22 - Jesus teaches the man to sell all he has and give it to the poor. It is not just about accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We also need good works by keeping Jesus’ commandments.
Matt. 22:39; Mark 12:31 - Jesus says You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love is a good work - an act of the intellect and will.
Mark 9:39 - Jesus said no one who does good works in His name will be able to soon after speak evil of Him. Good works justify us before God.
Luke 6:46-47 - the Lord asks us to do what he tells us, and that is to keep His commandments, not just “accept” Him as personal Lord and Savior.
Luke 6:20-38 - again, beatitudes, the love of enemies, giving to the needy, forgiving, bearing fruit - all these good works justify a man before God.
Luke 8:21 - Jesus says that His mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.
John 5:24 - note that “eternal life” here means sanctifying grace (the life of God within us). We can choose to fall from this grace.
John 5:36, 10:37-38 - Jesus emphasizes that His works testify to who He is. We must imitate Christ’s works to be more fully united with Him.
John 5:39-42 - knowing the Scriptures is not enough if you do not have love in your heart.
John 8:31-32 - Jesus requires works even from those who believe in Him. Mere belief is not enough.
John 13:34-35 - Jesus gives us a new commandment, that we love one another as He loves us. He commands love which is an act of our will.
John 14:15 - Jesus says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” This requires works, not just faith (and not faith alone).
John 14:21 – he who hears my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. This is doing good works for others.
John 15:8 – Jesus requires us to bear the good fruit of works if we are to be His disciples. These fruits are merits in Catholic teaching, all borne from God’s unmerited gift of grace.
John 15:10 - if you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, as I have kept the Father’s commandments.
John 15:12 - this is My commandment that you love one another as I have loved you. Love is both a cause and the fruit of our justification.
Rom. 12:10 - Paul commands us to love one another. Love is a good work, an act of the intellect and will, not just a feeling.
1 Cor. 3:8 – Paul teaches that he who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor.
1 Cor. 13:2 – Paul teaches that if our faith moves mountains, but we have not the works of love, we are nothing indeed.
1 Cor. 13:13 - abide in faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Love is the greatest work which justifies us (not faith, and most importantly, not faith alone!)
1 Tim. 6:18-19 - we are to do good and be rich in good works thus laying up a good foundation for a chance at eternal life.
Titus 1:16 - people claim to know God, but their deeds deny Him. Like Jesus, it is our works that testify to our faith in Christ.
1 John 2:3-5 - and by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. This requires good works, not faith alone.
1 John 3:23 - God’s commandment is to believe in His Son Jesus and love one another. Belief is not enough, but good works to perfect that belief.
1 John 4:7-21 - and this commandment we have from Him, that he who loves God should love his brother also. John gives us repeated exhortations to love one another.
1 John 5:2-3 - we know we love God and God’s children when we keep His commandments. We need to love which is manifested in good works and not faith alone. 2 John 6 - we must love one another and keep Jesus’ commandments. We must cooperate with Christ’s grace.
(all the above can be found at www.scripturecatholic.com )
V. Jesus and Apostles Teach that Works are Necessary for Justification
Matt. 5:2-11 - Jesus’ teaching of the beatitudes goes beyond faith - being pure, merciful, and peacemakers are all good works. They are acts of the will that are necessary for a right relationship with God.
Matt. 5:16 - Jesus confirms this by teaching, “let your light shine before men that they may see your ‘good works’ and give glory to God.” Good works glorify God and increase our justification before the Father.
Matt. 5:39-42 - give your striker the other cheek, give away your cloak, and go with him two miles. This faith in action, not faith alone.
Matt. 5:44-47 - this means even loving our enemies and praying for those who persecute us. Love is a good work, an act of the will.
Matt. 6:12 - forgive us our sins, not by how much faith we have, but as we forgive those who trespass against us.
Matt. 7:19-23 - just saying “Lord, Lord” and accepting Jesus as personal Savior is not enough. We must also bear the fruit of good works.
Matt. 19:16-22 - Jesus teaches the man to sell all he has and give it to the poor. It is not just about accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We also need good works by keeping Jesus’ commandments.
Matt. 22:39; Mark 12:31 - Jesus says You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love is a good work - an act of the intellect and will.
Mark 9:39 - Jesus said no one who does good works in His name will be able to soon after speak evil of Him. Good works justify us before God.
Luke 6:46-47 - the Lord asks us to do what he tells us, and that is to keep His commandments, not just “accept” Him as personal Lord and Savior.
Luke 6:20-38 - again, beatitudes, the love of enemies, giving to the needy, forgiving, bearing fruit - all these good works justify a man before God.
Luke 8:21 - Jesus says that His mother and brothers are those who hear the word of God and do it.
John 5:24 - note that “eternal life” here means sanctifying grace (the life of God within us). We can choose to fall from this grace.
John 5:36, 10:37-38 - Jesus emphasizes that His works testify to who He is. We must imitate Christ’s works to be more fully united with Him.
John 5:39-42 - knowing the Scriptures is not enough if you do not have love in your heart.
John 8:31-32 - Jesus requires works even from those who believe in Him. Mere belief is not enough.
John 13:34-35 - Jesus gives us a new commandment, that we love one another as He loves us. He commands love which is an act of our will.
John 14:15 - Jesus says, “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.” This requires works, not just faith (and not faith alone).
John 14:21 – he who hears my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. This is doing good works for others.
John 15:8 – Jesus requires us to bear the good fruit of works if we are to be His disciples. These fruits are merits in Catholic teaching, all borne from God’s unmerited gift of grace.
John 15:10 - if you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, as I have kept the Father’s commandments.
John 15:12 - this is My commandment that you love one another as I have loved you. Love is both a cause and the fruit of our justification.
Rom. 12:10 - Paul commands us to love one another. Love is a good work, an act of the intellect and will, not just a feeling.
1 Cor. 3:8 – Paul teaches that he who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor.
1 Cor. 13:2 – Paul teaches that if our faith moves mountains, but we have not the works of love, we are nothing indeed.
1 Cor. 13:13 - abide in faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love. Love is the greatest work which justifies us (not faith, and most importantly, not faith alone!)
1 Tim. 6:18-19 - we are to do good and be rich in good works thus laying up a good foundation for a chance at eternal life.
Titus 1:16 - people claim to know God, but their deeds deny Him. Like Jesus, it is our works that testify to our faith in Christ.
1 John 2:3-5 - and by this we may be sure that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. This requires good works, not faith alone.
1 John 3:23 - God’s commandment is to believe in His Son Jesus and love one another. Belief is not enough, but good works to perfect that belief.
1 John 4:7-21 - and this commandment we have from Him, that he who loves God should love his brother also. John gives us repeated exhortations to love one another.
1 John 5:2-3 - we know we love God and God’s children when we keep His commandments. We need to love which is manifested in good works and not faith alone. 2 John 6 - we must love one another and keep Jesus’ commandments. We must cooperate with Christ’s grace.
(all the above can be found at www.scripturecatholic.com )
R
reen12
Guest
Hi, kaycee,
For what it’s worth, I sure understand what you’re saying.
See, I think that some of those who do not hold your postition, zero in on thinking that faith = belief that Jesus saved me,
but that my “works” are somehow necessary, with
“mortal sin” waving over our heads, a constant trap
set before our feet etc.
I think they fail to understand that faith generates good
works, out of gratitude, heightens avoidance of sin…and
that, if the worst befalls, and we’ve sinned mortally, sacramental confession, rather than making the turn back to Jesus in a
single prayer for forgiveness and mercy, is what’s required.
More like a legal brief than a personal realtionship to me.
So, yes, kaycee, apologetics aside, I do understand
what you’re saying.
Sometimes I get so fed up with the legalism, I turn
to Judaism for a while, to rest my head.
reen12
For what it’s worth, I sure understand what you’re saying.
See, I think that some of those who do not hold your postition, zero in on thinking that faith = belief that Jesus saved me,
but that my “works” are somehow necessary, with
“mortal sin” waving over our heads, a constant trap
set before our feet etc.
I think they fail to understand that faith generates good
works, out of gratitude, heightens avoidance of sin…and
that, if the worst befalls, and we’ve sinned mortally, sacramental confession, rather than making the turn back to Jesus in a
single prayer for forgiveness and mercy, is what’s required.
More like a legal brief than a personal realtionship to me.
So, yes, kaycee, apologetics aside, I do understand
what you’re saying.
Sometimes I get so fed up with the legalism, I turn
to Judaism for a while, to rest my head.
reen12
K
kaycee
Guest
Yes, the fall of Adam is our problem. Gods opinion of us is not very high.
Luke 18:19 “Why do you call Me good?” Jesus asked him. "No one is good but One–God.
Eph 2:1 And you were dead in your trespasses and sins,
Eph 2:3 - Among them** we too all ** formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
Eph 4:17 So this I say, and affirm together with the Lord, that **you walk no longer just as the Gentiles also walk, in the futility of their mind, **18 being darkened in their understanding, excluded from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardness of their heart; 19 and they, having become callous, have given themselves over to sensuality for the practice of every kind of impurity with greediness.
Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, "THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE."
Eph 5:8 - for you were formerly darkness, but now you are Light in the Lord; walk as children of Light
Rom 5:10 For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
M
Mickey
Guest
God made us in His own image. I doubt that He doesn’t have a very high opinion of us.
T
TOP
Guest
My dad was baptist, my mom is roman catholic, my wife is byzantine. Im saddened by this bickering. My dad was wise, my mom endures, and my wife has faith. The Lord transends the bounderies man makes. Tim
D
deb1
Guest
Actually, I think that this debate is interesting. Kaycee is polite and hasn’t been rude and I don’t think that anyone has been rude to him. Because you are on the apologetics portion of these forums you are going to come across some debate. If it bothers you then just hang out in the other forums. Every body is pretty laid back in the water cooler or family forum, you might be more comfortable there.
B
BarbaraTherese
Guest
Hi smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/11/11_12_2.gif out there in our Cyberspace Community…
I think there is an awareness that breaks through in to consciousness and a work of Grace…an awareness of just how sinful I am in essence and just how Merciful God is…this leads to wanting to Love God more and the seeking and striving of ways to try to please Him and a realization that naught is quite good enought…it moves one to want to thank and praise God all the more and not quite knowing how to do this in accordance with the depths of what one feels. This is often a completely ‘dark’ contemplative ‘sudden’ awareness that one does not know from whence came…except that it must surely have come from God because of its fruits…certainly this type of awareness brings with it a measure of pain at one’s sinfulness but also an enlarging of the heart as it were in longing to be more and more pleasing to God -hence experienced as ‘painful longing’…an increase of Love and Great Peace of soul. T he soul under stands that only God’s Gratuitious Mercy and which is freely now and abundantly revealed to the soul can rescue it from its sinfulness, which is surely why the saints were all almost so much at pains to state how sinful they were. This longing is not legalistic though it may indeed strive hard very hard to never consciously offend God and certainly not in a serious way…it is the longing of Love … gift of The Holy Spirit. Such a soul is never surprised at its own sinfulness…rather and to the contrary overwhelmed by God’s Mercy…and true Peace of Soul in the midst of its own poverty. Perhaps this type of experience Kaycee has had and perhaps, perhaps, without the words to describe it as oft can be the case with great simplicity of soul.
This can also be accompanied by great growth in detachment as the soul longs to cling to God and Him alone and sees with great clarity how much in need of God he/she and all are and moreover the longing of the Heart of God to grant all Mercy. Often too a great growth in humility as the soul seems to realize with clarity its sinfulness and undeserving as ‘geatest of all’…“what can save me, nothing but The Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ”.
Something like that…
Barb
Bethany South Australia
Monday 27.6.05 2.19pm
St Cyril of Alexandria PFU
I think there is an awareness that breaks through in to consciousness and a work of Grace…an awareness of just how sinful I am in essence and just how Merciful God is…this leads to wanting to Love God more and the seeking and striving of ways to try to please Him and a realization that naught is quite good enought…it moves one to want to thank and praise God all the more and not quite knowing how to do this in accordance with the depths of what one feels. This is often a completely ‘dark’ contemplative ‘sudden’ awareness that one does not know from whence came…except that it must surely have come from God because of its fruits…certainly this type of awareness brings with it a measure of pain at one’s sinfulness but also an enlarging of the heart as it were in longing to be more and more pleasing to God -hence experienced as ‘painful longing’…an increase of Love and Great Peace of soul. T he soul under stands that only God’s Gratuitious Mercy and which is freely now and abundantly revealed to the soul can rescue it from its sinfulness, which is surely why the saints were all almost so much at pains to state how sinful they were. This longing is not legalistic though it may indeed strive hard very hard to never consciously offend God and certainly not in a serious way…it is the longing of Love … gift of The Holy Spirit. Such a soul is never surprised at its own sinfulness…rather and to the contrary overwhelmed by God’s Mercy…and true Peace of Soul in the midst of its own poverty. Perhaps this type of experience Kaycee has had and perhaps, perhaps, without the words to describe it as oft can be the case with great simplicity of soul.
This can also be accompanied by great growth in detachment as the soul longs to cling to God and Him alone and sees with great clarity how much in need of God he/she and all are and moreover the longing of the Heart of God to grant all Mercy. Often too a great growth in humility as the soul seems to realize with clarity its sinfulness and undeserving as ‘geatest of all’…“what can save me, nothing but The Grace of Our Lord Jesus Christ”.
Something like that…
Barb
Bethany South Australia
Monday 27.6.05 2.19pm
St Cyril of Alexandria PFU
R
reggie
Guest
Superstar905 — Just have to commend you for your post. It was detailed, precise and well thought out. It is hard to refute it.
I notice that as yet, no one has tried. Kaycee immediately fell back on the man is bad, no one is good except God etc…
Kaycee, Catholics do not believe that they can “buy” their way into eternal life with good works. Good works are the natural result of faith and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. John says that faith without works is dead and that work without faith is dead. It is simple, we do good deeds in Jesus’s name, out of love for Him, to the praise and glory of God. It is not enough just to do good, it is not enough just to have faith.
Catholicism is not legalistic. It holds to the truth, a definite and absolute truth. The charge of legalism is always raised by those who are threatened by absolutes. It is not enough to just accept the grace that Jesus made possible. We must take up our cross, we must follow Him, we must be like Him. We must lose ourselves and put on Christ. The belief that the truth is what makes one feel good, or in Kaycee’s case “true peace” is religious relativism. Religious truth is not subject to each individual’s “feel good” meter. It has never been easy to be a Christian. I don’t know who said it but there is a quote that goes something like this “It is hard to believe because it is hard to obey”. Jesus has never asked us to do what He has not done Himself.
I notice that as yet, no one has tried. Kaycee immediately fell back on the man is bad, no one is good except God etc…
Kaycee, Catholics do not believe that they can “buy” their way into eternal life with good works. Good works are the natural result of faith and the gifts of the Holy Spirit. John says that faith without works is dead and that work without faith is dead. It is simple, we do good deeds in Jesus’s name, out of love for Him, to the praise and glory of God. It is not enough just to do good, it is not enough just to have faith.
Catholicism is not legalistic. It holds to the truth, a definite and absolute truth. The charge of legalism is always raised by those who are threatened by absolutes. It is not enough to just accept the grace that Jesus made possible. We must take up our cross, we must follow Him, we must be like Him. We must lose ourselves and put on Christ. The belief that the truth is what makes one feel good, or in Kaycee’s case “true peace” is religious relativism. Religious truth is not subject to each individual’s “feel good” meter. It has never been easy to be a Christian. I don’t know who said it but there is a quote that goes something like this “It is hard to believe because it is hard to obey”. Jesus has never asked us to do what He has not done Himself.
E
E.E.N.S
Guest
I agree, that was a great post Superstar905 - I was going to post something similar to that! Thanks for saving me the typing!
R
reggie
Guest
After rereading your post, I have to add to my last post. I ask you to explain what the difference between your beliefs and mine.
I believe that faith is a gift, unmerited. I believe that faith compels me to follow Jesus and thus do good out of love for Him and love for others. I believe that when I faithfully attend Mass and receive the Sacraments, I am given grace that helps me to avoid sin. When I sin, I do turn to Jesus, in the Sacrament of reconciliation. I do say a prayer for mercy and forgiveness, we call it penance. Mortal sin is not a trap always ready to be sprung, we are not at its mercy, one must choose to commit a mortal sin. But the road is narrow and it is difficult to stay on it without the light of Jesus and following His footsteps.
I find it ironic that you then say you must turn to Judaism, which was extremely legalistic. Also in your signature, you claim it is our behavior and attitude that helps them decide if our beliefs are the truth. So, it is not your faith that helps determine if your belief is the truth, it is your Behavior and attitude. How ironic is that?
- Status