I have true Peace

[javelin]

kaycee:

my explanation was not clear

John 6:37 “All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will certainly not cast out.”

John 6:39 “This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.”

All that the Father gives to the Son are raised up on the last day.

Again, you are missing the important distinction that Jesus is saying He will not lose them, He will not cast them out*. *He does not say that they will not leave of their own will, nor that after they initially come to Him, they will not later reject Him. Remember the seeds cast on rocky soil? They respond to the call with gladness (are called by God and come to Jesus), but are choked and killed by the world. Doesn’t sound like they were assured of anything.

kaycee:

John 6:44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

All that the Father draws are raised up on the last day.

No.
None come except those that are drawn. – yes, but this does NOT say that all who are drawn will come. Big difference.
All who come to Jesus will be raised on the last day. – yes, but “come” can also imply “arrival”. When you tell your dog to “come”, and he runs toward you, but then turns and runs a different direction, has he “come”?
**Synopsis:
Some of those drawn by the Father to the Son will come to the Son, and those who complete the journey of sanctification in Christ – the “race” as Paul calls it – will be raised on the last day.
**

kaycee:

All those given by the Father and drawn by the Father are raised up on the last day.

No one that is drawn by the Father rejects the Son.

Do not equate “those given by the Father” and “those drawn by the Father”. It is very possible that God has “hand selected” some that will be preserved and given to the Son directly. Those people are very special (Mary, the prophets, the Apostles). That is NOT everyone’s lot. The rest are “drawn” to the Father, not “given” by Him to the Son.

Those who are given, their role in God’s plan can be safely assumed to be sure, I think, but NONE OF THEM KNEW IT. They were all of such high humility that they assumed they were drawn and needed to respond in faith, which they did.

Your last statement does not follow from the others, then. How do you conclude that “No one that is drawn by the Father rejects the Son”?

Peace,
javelin

 

[Mickey]

kaycee:

Just pointing out that Paul was not concerned about being disqualified for Salvation, just gain and loss of rewards at the believers reward seen below

So you are saying that Paul was concerned about being disqualified from gaining rewards?

 

[javelin]

kaycee:

I would say the 1689 Westminster confession describes the vast majority of what I believe.

Peace! <><

RyanL didn’t ask that, he asked what parts of the Catechism’s description of justification you agreed/disagreed with. It would be very beneficial for all of us if you would consider answering, as it can clear up much misunderstanding if it is present.

Peace,
javelin

 

[DeFide]

kaycee:

Just pointing out that Paul was not concerned about being disqualified for Salvation, just gain and loss of rewards at the believers reward seen below

.

That idea conflicts with 2 Peter 2:18ff:

18 For when they speak great swelling words of vanity, they allure through the lusts of the flesh, through much wantonness, those that were clean escaped from them who live in error.
19 While they promise them liberty, they themselves are the servants of corruption: for of whom a man is overcome, of the same is he brought in bondage.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

 

[DeFide]

kaycee:

Just pointing out that Paul was not concerned about being disqualified for Salvation, just gain and loss of rewards at the believers reward…

And it conflicts with 1 Tim 5:8

8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an unbeliever.

(Notice that he cannot himself be an unbeliever, as he is worse… he is a believer who turns away.)

 

[reen12]

Oh, well said, Barbara Therese!

quote: Barbara Therese

My hope in Peace for all. My hope invests in what my Faith tells me …and both a leap into the dark, helplessness, trust and confidence.

What can I prove to you…nothing except my sinfulness!!!..and in this my weakness I find my greatest strength!!!

“…and both a leap into the dark, helplessness…”

Maybe that’s what I mean, without knowing it, by the “absurd.”

Maureen
[reen12]

 

[BarbaraTherese]

reen12:

Oh, well said, Barbara Therese!

quote: Barbara Therese

Maybe that’s what I mean, without knowing it, by the “absurd.”

Maureen
[reen12]

One of the effects of The Dark Night as I see it as an awakening to awareness which of course is God as Absolute Mystery…and perhpas moments of blazing light of the ‘totality’ of His Goodness, Love or Mercy etc…that cannot be explained only stated…this brings with it insight into the absurd too!..remember “they have persecuted me and the will p ersecute you” and those who most persecuted Jesus were his own…The Romans rather thought of Jesus as something of a flea in their side only.

Awareness also sees Reality as it is… also realitites…no rules anywhere that life must be fair or logica;l…oft tis not and right across the board. ie. absurd!!!
Laughable! Ridiculous!..sad and tragic too!

Great to catch up with you again Maureen, but as I float around the board I try to keep up with your Posts…always of interest and so very honest!!! AS far as I am concerned keep up the good work! Wish I could be as brutally honest as your are!

Regards Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/7/7_6_6v.gif how do you like my signature, Maureen…so very typically me!!!
Bethany smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/982v.gif South Australia Fri. l.705 2.57pm
By Your Cross and Resurrection you have set us free!!!

 

[BarbaraTherese]

…oh Dear St. Paul have patience with us!

…and our Pedantics.

Barb smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/26/26_11_7.gif

 

[BarbaraTherese]

Hi Maureen…my mouse is playing up…but somewhere along the line you stated that you felt bitterness…our feelings are completely amoral…no need to feel guilt about them. Its what we do with our feelings PROVIDED we have insight to recognize that feelings are only part of us. The totallity of the person in one sense is feelings and mind … and the real us is somewhere in the interplay between.

I once write a poem that feelings are like windmills…they shift in the slightest breeze…often our feelings are conditionings or programmings from the past over which we have no control. The important thing is that we know what we feel…and choose to act on reason and logic…not feelings. Yet we remain imperfect creatures in an imperfect life…dependant on one’s concept (relative matter!) of what perfection/imperfection is!!!

Man sees only the outside…God KNOWS our inner workings and is ABSOLUTE UNDERSTANDING AND LOVING MERCY … the latter to those who appeal to it…or deserve it according to God’s Idea I guess!!!

Regards Barb

 

[BarbaraTherese]

BarbaraTherese:

Hi Maureen… enjoyed your Post until I got down to the last sentence, that was sort of jarring…as yet dont know why…will come back to this if and when the penny drops.

Regards Barb
Bethany, South Australia
Wed. 29.6. 05 4.07pm

Hi again Maureen…still having trouble with my mouse…does its own thing and answering Posts etc. becomes very time consuming!..but my problem not yours. Reality to our logic is oft unfair, absurd, ridiculous! We cannot alter realities only accept them for what they are unless they decide to change or ask our help to change .
I am no philosopher…but to accept some realities as absurd…to me is not agnostic. Because I accept certain realities as absurd…my Faith intact. When Moses asks God Who He Is?..He simply replies “I Am Who Am”…as Reality, as reality is and you and I are…we simply are over and above the tags we or others may give us. I am simply a human being which is a tag society has created for we c reatures of so called logic and reason!!! I am!..if I write I Am…it is a statement that I am in the State of Grace…hence I Am in hope only! As St. Teresa of Avila wrote “there is always something of The Dark Night of The Soul”.

Hope that makes sense to you anyway Maureen!

Regards Barb

 

[reen12]

Hi, Barbara Therese!

You’ve given me so much to ponder.

35 years ago, I was* convinced* that life was absurb.
No meaning. [in philosophy the term would be “noetic”.]
so, my search has always been noetic in nature.
i.e., what does this mean?

I’ve taken “noetic” and turned it into the more familiar
term “nutty or nuttiness.” Do you understand that?

The *density *of the absurdity of life, on occassion, almost qualifies it as a “black hole” [astronomy.]

I have to trust that Christ meant it, when He said:
I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, or as you
noted: I AM WHO AM [which I often make reference
to as well.]

The topic of this thread is : I have peace.
A leap into the darkness and the “unknowability” of God
is also peace, isn’t it?

Best,
Maureen

 

[Writer]

kaycee:

Absolutely, all good things come from GOD! However to stay in a state of grace requires you to stay clear from mortal sin. That is work is it not?

If you’re saying that nothing you can do can be seen as a denial of Christ, then you’re disregarding free will. I also am at peace, although I know that I could potentially turn away from God in the future. It is this knowledge which encourages me to watch what I do.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

reen12:

Hi, Barbara Th erese!

You’ve given me so much to ponder.

35 years ago, I was* convinced* that life was absurb.
No meaning. [in philosophy the term would be “noetic”.]
so, my search has always been noetic in nature.
i.e., what does this mean?

I’ve taken “noetic” and turned it into the more familiar
term “nutty or nuttiness.” Do you understand that?

The *density *of the absurdity of life, on occassion, almost qualifies it as a “black hole” [astronomy.]

I have to trust that Christ meant it, when He said:
I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, or as you
noted: I AM WHO AM [which I often make reference
to as well.]

The topic of this thread is : I have peace.
A leap into the darkness and the “unknowability” of God
is also peace, isn’t it?

Best,
Maureen

Hi Maureen…all!

I read somewhere or other that no where is it written that life must be logical and make sense. For often it does not. This came home to me with the onset of my own Bipolar condition. We had a quite happy and aflluent life as a family…suddenly I become very mentally ill. My children were devestated and so was my then husband who floundered and could not handle me being ill and I too was devestated. Soon I was homeless and struck by dire poverty too ill to work. Nothing made sense to me and that was when I made my own leap into darkness after an extended period of problems with my own concepts of what God was all about. I decided to trust and have confidence that God as now Absolute Mystery knew what he was doing tho I most certainly could not see it.
Yes to leap into the absolute darkness of Faith and to Hope in what our Faith presents is Peace…the greatest Peace I
think imagineable! I turned to our spiritual theology which is exquis tely beatiful I turned to our spiritual theology which gave me answers where there was none… and also that I could never doubt The Real Presence in t he Blessed Eucharist. I could not doubt The Mass. I think for a long time I wanted to do so…to chuck away religion completely…but could not!!!..because of The Blessed Eucharist…t hough I felt not hing…I just seemed to know that Jesus was present. Present in Absolute Silence. I also derived great benefit and strength from pondering a reality of history…that Jesus was crucified. I pondered it as a reality…what really happened…of how devestated he would have felt as his own plans were reduced to nothing and he was abandoned … and in great physical pain, torment and agony and in total anguish of mind. His life it seemed had come to nothing and so had mine… …and I believed as an act of the will that as for Jesus…so somehow, somewhere along the line there would be a resurrection for me too. That I think was when I began to fight the illness…to believe that there would be a life for me after mental illness…somehow, somewhere. That belief was fulfilled…tho not as I would have anticipated.

At some stage I read about t he Via Negativa and also the Cloud of Unknowning which of course are part of our spiritual theology…where t here was no sense in a logical manner - I began to make sense for myself in a spiritual manner.

As for nutty…well sanity is an imaginar y line set by societ y to compartmentalize her ‘victims’…it is also an imaginary ever shifting line.

I hope, Maureen, that I have spoken to your points for I think you think far deeper than I do…intelligence can be a lonely hell…if we ar e so intelligent (as happens) that others cannot understand us. I have long thought the challenge to genius is to get the man int he street to comprehend.

Forgive my typing errors…besides my own limitations I have to get new batteries for my mouse today…and my mouse itself is tired and worn out…as is this tired keyboard…but Poverty is superior to need and twere it a real need…then I would have new mouse and keyboard. And thats just the way I look on matters. Life is all about attitude to!

Barb

Bethany South Australia
Sat. 2.7.05 9.30am
smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_16.gifThis symbol means Jesus Saviour of The World…to me it also means: In His Service…not because I feel anything…because I have chosen to be so. With my sinfulness and imperfects daily intact…trustful in His Mercy and His Grace…in His Time for “My ways are not your ways” T hat is an incredible statement. Attitude.
Hail Mary!..Mother of Mercies!

 

[rubycanoe]

hello kaycee,
been there done that
Please read Genesis
God made man and women in His image and he made them Good.!!!
think about that for awhile please and God Bless you , I hope you are like me and will find out the truth, keep looking, and dont think you know it all, and dig deeper.
The Catholic Church is the pillar of truth, read Timothy.
Amen Alleluia

 

[reen12]

Hi, Barb,

I’m going to reply to your post above over on the thread
I started on Loss and the Absurd, OK?

Best,
reen12

 

[BarbaraTherese]

reen12:

Hi, Barb,

I’m going to reply to your post above over on the thread
I started on Loss and the Absurd, OK?

Best,
reen12

…sounds ok to me Maureen…I always was best at following leadership!..cacha then on Loss & The Absurd…

Barb
Bethany Sth. Aust Sat. 2.7.05 6.18pm Hail Mary!

 

[reggie]

reen12:

Hi, Mickey,

Good grief. You’ve served it up on a platter:

**

“…our first confidence firm to the end.” [con-fide, “with faith**”]

In Him -not works, not dogmas, not credal statements - Him.

We share in Christ, if only we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

IMHO it is you who have served it up on a platter.

That if only would seem to indicate that holding firm is something we must do in order to share in Christ.

Our confidence is in Christ, that He died so that we may be saved.
We express our confidence in Christ by doing those things He commanded us to do.

Your very next post seals the Catholic position. You say God will not be mocked by pretend Christians who proclaim faith but have not mercy or kindness in their hearts for others.

So, then, is it your position that to be a true Christian one must not only have faith but must also follow Jesus’s commandments, showing charity and love for others? Isn’t that what we have been expousing as the Catholic view of faith? So if one’s faith is “pretend” and “faith only” and does not include good works, does that mean that they cannot share in Christ? Does that mean they have no salvation?

You say that the church needs an outward presence. Why? If these creeds, dogmas, sacraments are unnecessary, why would the church need an outward presence? Why do you need to drop off your clothes at a church, help at a mission etc… why can’t you just go directly to those who need your help? In the parable of the barren fig tree, Lk 13:6-9, the gardener asks to help the tree bear fruit in the hopes of saving it. The church is like the gardener, the sacraments fertilizer for our hearts and souls nourishing us with the grace we need to bear good fruit. You’ll notice that the last of the parable says that if it bears fruit that is well and good, but if not, it can be cut down.

Side note regarding our last dialogue…

Yes, Jesus did rebuke the pharisees and saducees because they burdened the people with laws. These laws were not the commandments though, they were superflous rules to give them power. It is noteworthy that while Jesus rebuked them, He also told the Apostles to do as they say not as they do. And Jesus did not rebuke their authority but the manner in which they abused it. Now some may say that the church does the same. I don’t see that since we the laity are not held to a stricter standard than the clergy. But there are those who reject all authority and all rules. The church mission is to proclaim the good news and instruct the faithful. The sacraments are for the building up of the faith of the church and the individual. As stated before, the church is not perfect, not the institution nor the people who are its living stones. But, it is what Jesus left us and we trust that the church has His blessing to carry out its mission as best as mere humans can.

reen, you seem to be a mass of contradiction and confusion. Is there peace in that?

 

[kaycee]

rubycanoe:

hello kaycee,
been there done that
Please read Genesis
God made man and women in His image and he made them Good.!!!

His creation was good, then the fall.

Luke 18:19 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call Me good? No one is good except God alone.”

Rom 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin; 10 as it is written, “THERE IS NONE RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE; 11 THERE IS NONE WHO UNDERSTANDS, THERE IS NONE WHO SEEKS FOR GOD; 12 ALL HAVE TURNED ASIDE, TOGETHER THEY HAVE BECOME USELESS; THERE IS NONE WHO DOES GOOD, THERE IS NOT EVEN ONE.” 13 “THEIR THROAT IS AN OPEN GRAVE, WITH THEIR TONGUES THEY KEEP DECEIVING,” “THE POISON OF ASPS IS UNDER THEIR LIPS”; 14 “WHOSE MOUTH IS FULL OF CURSING AND BITTERNESS”; 15 “THEIR FEET ARE SWIFT TO SHED BLOOD, 16 DESTRUCTION AND MISERY ARE IN THEIR PATHS, 17 AND THE PATH OF PEACE THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN.” 18 "THERE IS NO FEAR OF GOD BEFORE THEIR EYES

The Catholic Church is the pillar of truth, read Timothy.
Amen Alleluia

Eph 2:20 - having been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus Himself being the corner stone"

The church is certainly the pillar and upholder of truth. Church = Body of believers.

 

[BarbaraTherese]

reggie:

reen12:

Hi, Mickey,

Good grief. You’ve served it up on a platter:

---

"…our first confidence firm to the end." [con-fide, "with faith"]

In Him -not works, not dogmas, not credal statements - Him.

**We share in Christ, if only **we hold our first confidence firm to the end.

**IMHO it is you who have served it up on a platter. **

That if only would seem to indicate that holding firm is something we must do in order to share in Christ.

Our confidence is in Christ, that He died so that we may be saved.
We express our c onfidence in Christ by doing those things He commanded us to do.

Your very next post seals the Catholic position. You say God will not be mocked by pretend Christians who proclaim faith but have not mercy or kindness in their hearts for others.

So, then, is it your position that to be a true Christian one must not only have faith but must also follow Jesus’s commandments, showing charity and love for others? Isn’t that what we have been expousing as the Catholic view of faith? So if one’s faith is “pretend” and “faith only” and does not include good works, does that mean that they cannot share in Christ? Does that mean they have no salvation?

You say that the church needs an outward presence. Why? If these creeds, dogmas, sacraments are unnecessary, why would the church need an outward presence? Why do you need to drop off your clothes at a church, help at a mission etc… why can’t you just go directly to those who need your help? In the parable of the barren fig tree, Lk 13:6-9, the gardener asks to help the tree bear fruit in the hopes of saving it. The church is like the gardener, the sacraments fertilizer for our hearts and souls nourishing us with the grace we need to bear good fruit. You’ll notice that the last of the parable says that if it bears fruit that is well and good, but if not, it can be cut down.

Side note regarding our last dialogue…

Yes, Jesus did rebuke the pharisees and saducees because they burdened the people with laws. These laws were not the commandments though, they were superflous rules to give them power. It is noteworthy that while Jesus rebuked them, He also told the Apostles to do as they say not as they do. And Jesus did not rebuke their authority but the manner in which they abused it. Now some may say that the church does the same. I don’t see that since we the laity are not held to a stricter standard than the clergy. But there are those who reject all authority and all rules. The church mission is to proclaim the good news and instruct the faithful. The sacraments are for the building up of the faith of the church and the individual. As stated before, the church is not perfect, not the institution nor the people who are its living stones. But, it is what Jesus left us and we trust that the church has His blessing to carry out its mission as best as mere humans can.

reen, you seem to be a mass of contradiction and confusion. Is there peace in that?

Yes…there is a Peace t hat can exist in a mass of contradictions and confusions…“My Peace I give to you BUT NOT AS THE WORLD GIVES IT”…worldly peace asks lack of any anxieties etc…The Peace of Christ is feely given to whom He wills who is not bound by law as miracles prove!!! “The Spirit blows where He will” …and Peace is granted even to me miserable creature that I am!..who then indeed could be excluded?..None!

If a person states they are in Peace…t hen let us rejoice and be glad…give praise and thanks… smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/17/17_1_15.gif

Barb

 

[reggie]

creation was good and then the fall…

it suggests that God didn’t know that man would fall into sin. That God made creation good and then it became bad. This is erroneous thinking at best. God was, is and ever shall be. He is the creator and author of life. He knew even before He created the world what would happen then and until the end of ages. And yet, when He saw what He had created, He saw good. Why do you call me good? There is no one good except God. True. No one is all that is good, from whom all goods things come except God. On our own we are none of us good, none of us righteous. But through the sacrifice and grace of Jesus we share in His righteousness and goodness. For His sake and our own, we do good. But it is not ours to boast, all belongs to God and is made good and righteous by Him. This is what happens by faith and through grace, we are called, we respond, we rejoice in Him and our eternal life in Him.

As to peace, the peace of this world is the absence of wars. The peace Jesus spoke of is the freedom of useless anxiety. Peace be with you, My peace I give you. Once again, confusion.