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Christine85
Guest
Thank you for your great advice, perhaps its a good idea for me to get one of these books.
I heard someone say Christ was not crucified on a cross but an upright stake
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mackbrislawn
Guest
Jehovah’s Witnesses teach that Jesus died on an upright stake instrument and I call this a “wedge” doctrine. It is used to wedge, or pry Christians away from their previous religion to the Watchtower religion. That is, if Christendom is wrong about what Jesus died on, what else are they wrong about? JW’s use of the word “Jehovah” for God’s name is another wedge doctrine. Seventh Day Adventists use Saturday worship as a wedge doctrine.
What I find of interest is the JW’s claim that Jesus died on a cross is not a biblical doctrine. Well, if the Greek word stauros does not mean cross, then they are right! This means if you go by sola scriptura, then you cannot maintain Jesus died on a cross! After all, the bible does not say so. So, how do we know Jesus died on a cross if the bible does not say so? Tradition, of course. And that Jesus died on a cross is well attested to by history and the early Christian authors.
Ironically then, sola scripturists rely unknowingly on tradition for many of their beliefs.
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st_julie
Guest
Also consider that Jesus was crucified by Romans not Greeks and their word was crux
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johnnyjones
Guest
I have wrestled with many a JW over scripture. Once they leave Kingdom Hall (after massive indoctrination) they are programmed to “teach”, not to learn. When you have given a reasonable answer to their peculiar doctrines, most often they run back to an 'elder" who re -programs them with some Watchtower material.I wrote this in the middle of the night. Should have highlighted the verse differently.
Hands…nails…plural. Has nothing to do with the feet..
Fr. Mitch Pacwa used this verse as a defense to the death being on a cross (EWTN open radio show)
When you say hands and nails (plural), it does not move them because even in their artwork, Jesus is on a torture stake with his hands over his head. So, the plural issue to a JW just makes their point if anything. We really do not know for sure if it was a typical cross as we know it today or some other upright wooden torture device. However, centuries art have been helpful. And even if the art is incorrect, oh well ,it’s too late, we have already adopted the cross as a powerful symbol of salvation.
There are many events that took place during the time of Jesus that many of us have, in our minds eye, visualized in a particular way, that may never have been.
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mackbrislawn
Guest
Which brings up how did the Old Latin translations render the Greek word stauros.
Although the JW’s have an answer to that which satisfies them.
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QuickCat
Guest
The word “cross” is found 28 times in the N.T., in the Koine it is always:
Strong’s Greek Dictionary
4716. σταυρος stauros
Search for G4716 in KJVSL
σταυρος stauros stow-ros’
from the base of 2476; a stake or post (as set upright), i.e. (specially), a pole or cross (as an instrument of capital punishment); figuratively, exposure to death, i.e. self-denial; by implication, the atonement of Christ:—cross.
See Greek 2476
Interesting that Paul uses the word “tree” in Gal. 3:13.
BTW, I am not a JW.
Grace and Peace,
QC
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homesower
Guest
“Cursed is everyone that hangs on a tree.” is one source for this, but since a stake isn’t any closer to a tree than is a cross that is a weak argument.
I think one reason to consider a stake has to do with the fate of the passover lamb, which was stretched out over a stake after it was killed. I could be wrong on this, but I heard this somewhere. Perhaps someone could chime in with a more authoritative voice.
However, Christ clearly foretold his death with “take up your cross and follow me”. And crosses were certainly used for crucifixions. Even the “crucify” language stems from the word for cross.
I think one reason to consider a stake has to do with the fate of the passover lamb, which was stretched out over a stake after it was killed. I could be wrong on this, but I heard this somewhere. Perhaps someone could chime in with a more authoritative voice.
However, Christ clearly foretold his death with “take up your cross and follow me”. And crosses were certainly used for crucifixions. Even the “crucify” language stems from the word for cross.
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Agape_et_Shalom
Guest
Get your facts together but having a discussion with a JW is a lot of fun. They always try to turn you around, like the stake/cross issue but their source is so weak. They are so friendly and ambitious you have to love them. I feel bad bursting their bubble. I always feel like if I can convert them what a great Catholic they would be. They have been very successful at converting people.
Ask them to read John 8 58 from their bible and then compare any other bible. That frustrates them because their bible does not translate to “I AM” and they don’t believe in the trinity or Jesus is God. The will tell you because our translations are wrong, but then of course ask them why were they going to stone Him in the next verse 59.
They will usually then invite you to one of their services, I counter with “sure but you have to attend Mass with me.” They usually leave but my son had a JW thinking about it. He also had one of them as a boss and he fired him, so be gracious.
Ask them to read John 8 58 from their bible and then compare any other bible. That frustrates them because their bible does not translate to “I AM” and they don’t believe in the trinity or Jesus is God. The will tell you because our translations are wrong, but then of course ask them why were they going to stone Him in the next verse 59.
They will usually then invite you to one of their services, I counter with “sure but you have to attend Mass with me.” They usually leave but my son had a JW thinking about it. He also had one of them as a boss and he fired him, so be gracious.
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QuickCat
Guest
More importantly is what the Lord Jesus Christ accomplished on the cross. He paid your and my sin debt in full.
Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. (KJV)
What a Savior!
Grace and Peace,
QC
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pollylodges
Guest
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee.
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
†
Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
†
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb Jesus.
Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death.
Amen.
†
Our Father who art in Heaven, hallowed be thy name.
Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread.
And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.
And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.
Amen.
†
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