I heard that Catholics...

[SwissGuard]

zzzimbob:

I believe that it is the individual parish community that is responsible for the size of a Catholic church. If that community is well-off, they will fund the building of a large and sometimes elaborate building - that is what I have observed when comparing poorer parishes to richer ones. I know of one parish in my town that has a very expensive tabernacle made of pure gold because a woman left the parish some money for that particular purpose in her will. On the other hand, the very biggest church structures in my town are not Catholic. There is one extremely large Fundamentalist/Evangelical church (whose outspoken pastor is a former Catholic and now anti-Catholic) that dwarfs all other churches in the area.

I agree with Zzzimbob. I would also add that the age of a church allows it more time and funding to grow (quite a few Catholic churches are historical landmarks). For example, my church was founded in 1901 and is the oldest in the area. The building has had plenty of time to grow since then.

Still, it probably can only hold about half the people of the stadium-sized “First Assembly of God” church across town!

 

[Anna_Elizabeth]

bengal_fan:

-the catholics i know (save a few) do not really know what they believe (improperly catechized) and no one (including the priests) seem to care

I am sorry to be getting to this thread so late in the discussion, but feel I must comment on this ever so frequent complaint about “Catholics who don’t know their religion.” I see an interesting parallel.

My major for my first degree was in American Institutions, a course that investigated the history of American political thought and how those ideals and intentions were and are currently manifested in the US.

Now then: almost all of my friends and acquaintances are citizens of the US. If asked, they would tell you that they consider themselves “good Americans.” They would take umbrage at the thought that they are anything less. Yet, few of them could intelligently discuss for even five minutes the content of the Constitution, the Bill of Rights, the Declaration, much less the Federalist Papers. Even Al Gore confused the significance of the latter during his campaign for the presidency.

This is not something of which to be proud, but, come now, Mr. Bengal, do you consider yourself a good American? Could you and your informed friends carry on such a conversation about institutions that REQUIRE your intelligent (name removed by moderator)ut? Or are you vis a vis your citizenship just about the same as the Catholics you “tsk tsk” about their religion, a religion they may very well accept as the “little children” whom they must emulate if they are to enter the Kingdon of Heaven?

Anna

 

[armywife]

Here here, Anna. That is such a great example and I too know because I was a PoliSci major in college. So many people have no even the slightest about how congress works or the electoral college.

What I have found is that there is a Catholic culture. We honor Mary and catholics know they are not praying or worshiping her or the saints. It’s not something that we’re taught persay because it is just something we know as catholics. There are so many things that are simply part of being catholic that we don’t think about. Then when we are confronted with questions, we don’t know what to say because it has always been a part of who we are and what we do. It wasn’t until I was in college that I was asked questions about my faith that I started learning exactly why we do the things we do. It simply takes being asked the question to think about why we do things.

 

[Peace-bwu]

-the catholics i know (save a few) do not really know what they believe (improperly catechized) and no one (including the priests) seem to care

-the argument that the protestant stance of “once saved always saved” lends credence to a lack of moral character seems to backfire on catholics as the most hypocritical people i know seem to be catholics. they are the ones in church on sundays after going to the strip bar saturday night. i’m not saying that protestants don’t do this also, it just seems that i have seen a higher degree of holiness in protestant churches than catholic.

-with all the talk about unity in the catholic church, i just don’t see it. there is no real community in the parishes i’ve seen. it is so individualistic. people want to come on sunday and leave and only interact with others when they offer the sign of peace. this doesn’t ring of acts chapter 2 to me.

-tithing. why do most catholics not tithe (again most of the hundreds that i know, you might tithe and know plenty who do and i will not dispute that). a little example would be when i was growing up, my family gave 3 dollars a week (my sister, my brother and i got to put it in the basket). most of my friends had the same experience.

-back to the unity, i started a thread about this but i will shortly put it here as well. the catholic church (at least in america) doesn’t seem that unified. each parish does something different. just look at all the catholics fighting with each other in these threads…and they say they are unified? this is a huge stumbling block for me.]

These are questions all Catholics should be asking themselves and trying to make changes to rectify the situation, they are problems within the commuinity, not necessarily with the sound doctrine and Tradition. These are problems the laity needs to take responsibility for and change ASAP. I believe the biggest problem stems from poor catechesis. Our youth is being sent out to carry on the Faith and keep 2000 yrs tradition without knowing it well enough. I am under 30 so one of those poor folks who discovered the Catechism as an adult. Many parish members simply don’t know they are being hypocritical because the were educated as children and have the knowledge of children. It is up to dedicated laity to teach CCD, set up sound Catechism and Bible studies, nurseries and parish functions. It’s a tall order but we have no choice, it is our responsibility! Ask not what your parish can do, ask what you can do for your parish. LOL

 

[ichabod]

bengal_fan:

my other qualm is with something that was said earlier. “the priests are too busy”. i just don’t understand how a man without a family or wife can be too busy. most protestant ministers i know (including myself) are married and still have time when their congregants need them. i have gotten calls at 3 in the morning and am never bitter about it. i am not trying to criticize the priests just that they could learn something from some (i say some because there are plenty of protestant ministers who are not good examples) of their protestant counterparts in how to minister to the individual and not just a parish.

I will only speak from my perspective. Our parish includes 5000 registered families (yes, I got the number of zeros right), and we only have one full-time priest. Our one deacon has a family and has a (more than) full-time job as director of public works of a neighboring city. There are neighboring parishes that have no pastor; just a pastoral administrator; the services are done by visiting priests and non-diocesan priests. We have 6 services every weekend.

A couple that I know held a meeting for parents preparing to baptize their children, held every other month; almost 100 people were there. Every night of the week, our church’s grounds are very busy.

I guess I see the other side of the coin. As a married man, I want to spend all of my time with my family. As a minister, what do you do when you get calls and your own family needs you? When your wife and children are sick?

I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of the Coming Home Network or not; it’s a ministry for ministers who convert/are converting to catholicism. Their stories are pretty revealing. The ministry is led by Marcus Grodi, a former minister himself. You migh appreciate his perspective.

 

[bengal_fan]

Anna Elizabeth:

This is not something of which to be proud, but, come now, Mr. Bengal, do you consider yourself a good American? Could you and your informed friends carry on such a conversation about institutions that REQUIRE your intelligent (name removed by moderator)ut? Or are you vis a vis your citizenship just about the same as the Catholics you “tsk tsk” about their religion, a religion they may very well accept as the “little children” whom they must emulate if they are to enter the Kingdon of Heaven?

Anna

actually anna,
i don’t know what a “good american” is but i could sit and discuss this country’s history as well as the relevant documents intelligently and at a fairly good length. that doesn’t mean that there aren’t others who are more informed, but i could adequately defend our constitution by using other sources and historical evidence. i could also talk about the federalist papers if you wish so i guess your argument wouldn’t pertain to me, but i understand your point. my purpose wasn’t to have this turned around on me and i think the agreement by most people’s responses shows that i have a valid point. especially when the things regarding the church and faith have a much larger impact on my life than what country i dwell in. the church’s teaching has an eternal impact whereas countries and empires come and go and we the people live on.

"These are questions all Catholics should be asking themselves and trying to make changes to rectify the situation, they are problems within the commuinity, not necessarily with the sound doctrine and Tradition. "

i agree, the problems i listed have nothing to do with doctrine and teaching. i don’t have a problem with the church in those regards (although i still have a few unanswered or not answered to my satisfaction of being a legitimate answer yet). truth is truth and the truth cannot be completely judged by the followers of that truth. BUT i think too many people are being turned off because of the church’s followers. my whole point is that if the people who claimed to know the truth actually knew and lived it, there would be more people flocking to the church.

 

[bengal_fan]

ichabod:

I will only speak from my perspective. Our parish includes 5000 registered families (yes, I got the number of zeros right), and we only have one full-time priest. Our one deacon has a family and has a (more than) full-time job as director of public works of a neighboring city. There are neighboring parishes that have no pastor; just a pastoral administrator; the services are done by visiting priests and non-diocesan priests. We have 6 services every weekend.

A couple that I know held a meeting for parents preparing to baptize their children, held every other month; almost 100 people were there. Every night of the week, our church’s grounds are very busy.

I guess I see the other side of the coin. As a married man, I want to spend all of my time with my family. As a minister, what do you do when you get calls and your own family needs you? When your wife and children are sick?

I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of the Coming Home Network or not; it’s a ministry for ministers who convert/are converting to catholicism. Their stories are pretty revealing. The ministry is led by Marcus Grodi, a former minister himself. You migh appreciate his perspective.

the priest situation doesn’t make sense. my mother’s parish has about 1000 members and they have 7 full-time priests and a number of deacons. they are also not too far from about 5 other parishes with the same number of priests. why doesn’t the catholic church transfer some of them to this 5000 person parish? what do i do when my family needs me? i assess the situation. it depends on the nature of the emergency. if some one is dying, i can leave a child or wife with a cold and go. if my child is dying, i minister to my congregation best by attending my family first (this is part of what paul talks about when saying a presbyter (elder) must have control of his house (children, wife, finances, etc.)). i understand you want to spend all of your time with your wife and family, but that doesn’t mean that you should. i think you serve them better sometimes by showing them you are willing to give of yourself for the benefit of some one else. this will teach them to be willing to give of themselves as well. this doesn’t mean neglect them, but it does mean put it in perspective. God is first and our mission on earth (matt. 28:19-20) is with that, the family will always come second to that and they need to know and experience that so that they can do the same thing. i have heard of the coming home network and marcus grodi thank you for the suggestion though.

 

[davy39]

I’ve heard that:: catholics are obligated to have large families—that they are encouraged to play bingo at a young age—they put the pope on the same level as Jesus—we worship statues—the pope is the anti-christ—they call us mackeral snappers—that the church is really a cult and not really christian–and the list goes on and on. I don’t reallythink most catholics are really ignorant of their faith, but we could sure some education from time to time.

 

[Shibboleth]

I am confused as to this concept of Sect that Catholics preach about. What is the difference between a Catholic Sect and a denomination?

Catholics attack Lutheran’s for having multiple denominations but we all are in union. The Greek “Synod” can mean many things within Christendom. The Eastern Orthodox have “synods” too; but theirs are meetings of the autonomous Orthodox churches for dialogue in attempt to keep in doctrinal unity. The “Great Synod” is a meeting of all of the Orthodox geographical overseers who are in agreement. Lutherans Synods serve the same function but; our “Synods” (walk together) are more of an organizational thing than a meeting.

A “synod” is not an attempt to divide those larger “denomination” looking camps of Lutherans, but more of a way for congregations to be in unity with others. In that way we become “churches” within the “Church.” The only thing that really binds all Lutherans world-wide is doctrine.

How is this different from Catholic Sects?

 

[beng]

Shibboleth:

I am confused as to this concept of Sect that Catholics preach about. What is the difference between a Catholic Sect and a denomination?

Catholics attack Lutheran’s for having multiple denominations but we all are in union.

In union about what?

There are group of Lutheran who denounce women pastors. And why the LCMS? Should it be wine or grape juice?

The Greek “Synod” can mean many things within Christendom. The Eastern Orthodox have “synods” too; but theirs are meetings of the autonomous Orthodox churches for dialogue in attempt to keep in doctrinal unity. The “Great Synod” is a meeting of all of the Orthodox geographical overseers who are in agreement. Lutherans Synods serve the same function but; our “Synods” (walk together) are more of an organizational thing than a meeting.

A “synod” is not an attempt to divide those larger “denomination” looking camps of Lutherans, but more of a way for congregations to be in unity with others. In that way we become “churches” within the “Church.” The only thing that really binds all Lutherans world-wide is doctrine.

How is this different from Catholic Sects?

Your synod doesn’t have any authoritative power.

If one stubborn member wants to ordain a lesbian, even if all opppose to it, she could still go on with her plan and there’s not much that other could do inside her diocese (which is her jurisdiction).

 

[Shibboleth]

beng:

In union about what?

There are group of Lutheran who denounce women pastors. And why the LCMS? Should it be wine or grape juice?

Your synod doesn’t have any authoritative power.

If one stubborn member wants to ordain a lesbian, even if all opppose to it, she could still go on with her plan and there’s not much that other could do inside her diocese (which is her jurisdiction).

Bing that wasn’t my question. If you want to bring your polemics up in a different thread please start one, I am here to learn about Catholicism not your angst towards Lutheranism.

I do not know how the Catholic Church defines their sects. What are they, and who are they. Do they all consider the Pope the fearless leader above all others?

 

[Shibboleth]

beng:

In union about what?

Doctrinal issues, the book of Concord, etc…

There are group of Lutheran who denounce women pastors. And why the LCMS? Should it be wine or grape juice?

Krol, President of the Conference of Bishops of the United States: For some time different Ordinaries have asked this Sacred Congregation for the permission to allow priests who are undergoing a treatment for alcoholism or who have undergone this treatment, to celebrate Mass with unfermented grape juice. With this situation in mind, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith authorizes the Ordinaries of the United States of America to grant to those priests who have made this request the permission either to concelebrate with one or more priests a normal Mass but without receiving communion under the species of wine or, when this is not possible, to celebrate Mass using unfermented grape juice and to use water alone for the ritual ablutions after Communion.

Your synod doesn’t have any authoritative power.

Who said I have a synod?

 

[Theodora]

bengal_fan:

i
my other qualm is with something that was said earlier. “the priests are too busy”. i just don’t understand how a man without a family or wife can be too busy. most protestant ministers i know (including myself) are married and still have time when their congregants need them. i have gotten calls at 3 in the morning and am never bitter about it. i am not trying to criticize the priests just that they could learn something from some (i say some because there are plenty of protestant ministers who are not good examples) of their protestant counterparts in how to minister to the individual and not just a parish.

Yes priests can get too busy. Many parishes in larger cities easily have 5000 - 8000 families (not members). I know of a priest who was so stressed out that he could not continue with a baptismal ceremony. Have you considered that Confession alone, even if it’s only done on Saturday, can take a lot of a priest’s time energy. Sitting for hours in a small, sometimes in a not too well-ventilated cubicle, can add to the stress. I have been to a baptism ceremony where 1/2 of the church was filled with familes with babies to be baptized. This ceremony took so long, that young children became restless and started to play games in the pews.

A priest is (of course) a human being and not a machine. I am pretty sure that there are occasions that he could feel under the weather, but forces himself to his call of duties.

We should pray for priests often that they become holy. In turn a holy priest in a parish will create holy laity. And isn’t that what’s all about: to “become holy like our heaveny Father is holy.”

 

[Becky]

kparlet:

For all the non-Catholics on the board, please enlighten me on some of the things that we Catholics do/believe that seem extremely odd/strange to you. Perhaps we can help clear up some of the misconceptions.

Well since you invited me to do so, Bob and Penny Lord had a program on Mary that aired on EWTN a few weeks back that shocked and saddened me. It was on La Conquistadora-if dressing up a statue of Mary with priceless jewels and expensive clothes, parading the statue through the streets of Santa Fe, and people kneeling before it while it passed them is not worship, then, honestly speaking, I don’t know what is.

I have seen similar scenes at places like Lourdes and Fatima.

Becky

 

[Dr.Colossus]

Becky:

if dressing up a statue of Mary with priceless jewels and expensive clothes, parading the statue through the streets of Santa Fe, and people kneeling before it while it passed them is not worship, then, honestly speaking, I don’t know what is.

I have seen similar scenes at places like Lourdes and Fatima.

Becky

If this scene had occured in, say, a monarchy in Europe, and instead of a statue sat a king, would you believe that the king were being worshipped? Honored, respected, even adored? Yes, but not worshipped. So it is not fair to assume that these people were worshipping Mary either. Also, I promise you that not a single person in attendance believed that the statue was Mary, or contained Mary, or had any power whatsoever. The statue was a representation, and those bowing before it recognized that fact.

 

[AngelicDoctor]

Regarding busy priests:

For one thing, the Catholic faith has far greater sacrametnal activity–and this makes quite a difference for the Catholic priest vs. the Protestant minister: baptisms, confessions (often in conjunction with preached retreats; and think of these during penitential seasons in Lent and Advent), daily Mass, perhaps 2-8 Masses on the weekend, weddings and marriage preparations, visiting/annointing the sick and dying, alongside possible teaching duties in the schools or catechetical instruction, administrative work, etc.
Factor all of this in with the fact that some priests are in charge of multiple parishes–some quite a distance apart.
I guess that my main point would be that you should not judge the busyness of the life of a Catholic priest without having walked in their shoes first. My impression (and I live in a rectory with 3 priests as a seminarian on pastoral internship) is that the summer months during Ordinary time are more laid back but once the school year kicks in and Advent/Christmas, and Lent/Easter come around, things get tight.

 

[Shibboleth]

Dr. Colossus:

If this scene had occured in, say, a monarchy in Europe, and instead of a statue sat a king, would you believe that the king were being worshipped? Honored, respected, even adored? Yes, but not worshipped. So it is not fair to assume that these people were worshipping Mary either. Also, I promise you that not a single person in attendance believed that the statue was Mary, or contained Mary, or had any power whatsoever. The statue was a representation, and those bowing before it recognized that fact.

What is the difference if I might ask. Seems to me it is close to the same as a golden calf. And yes if people did the same with a statue of a King I would consider it worship. Idol worship anyways.

 

[Becky]

Dr. Colossus:

If this scene had occured in, say, a monarchy in Europe, and instead of a statue sat a king, would you believe that the king were being worshipped? Honored, respected, even adored? Yes, but not worshipped. So it is not fair to assume that these people were worshipping Mary either. Also, I promise you that not a single person in attendance believed that the statue was Mary, or contained Mary, or had any power whatsoever. The statue was a representation, and those bowing before it recognized that fact.

Hi Colossus,

Thanks for the quick response. In my eyes there is a big difference between a living, breathing monarch such as QEII, and someone kneeling before her as a sign of respect towards her sovereignty, and someone kneeling before an inatimate object and dressing it up in expesive jewels and clothing. BTW, how do you know what people in attendance were thinking about that statue?

Good post Shibboleth

 

[1962Missal]

Becky:

Well since you invited me to do so, Bob and Penny Lord had a program on Mary that aired on EWTN a few weeks back that shocked and saddened me. It was on La Conquistadora-if dressing up a statue of Mary with priceless jewels and expensive clothes, parading the statue through the streets of Santa Fe, and people kneeling before it while it passed them is not worship, then, honestly speaking, I don’t know what is.

I have seen similar scenes at places like Lourdes and Fatima.

Becky

Hiya, Winnie, still beating a dead horse?

fresh-hope.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=17769&sid=cb0e169c17c1dc576e2ed6c94114e9b1

 

[Little_Mary]

Becky:

Well since you invited me to do so, Bob and Penny Lord had a program on Mary that aired on EWTN a few weeks back that shocked and saddened me. It was on La Conquistadora-if dressing up a statue of Mary with priceless jewels and expensive clothes, parading the statue through the streets of Santa Fe, and people kneeling before it while it passed them is not worship, then, honestly speaking, I don’t know what is.

I have seen similar scenes at places like Lourdes and Fatima.

Becky

I sense a bit of arrogance in this post.

I might patiently point out that different cultures show love and respect for Mary in different ways. What you saw and what you understand are very clearly two different things here.

Please take the time to find out how Catholics regard Mary before you criticize anymore. If you have already looked into it, then you have discovered that Catholics do not worship Mary, and that we do not think of her as God, and you have chosen to ignore it. :nope: