I just can't believe in god

[Cairone]

I need to be able to verify it with at least one of the five senses that god supposedly blessed us with and/or indisputable archeological/historical evidence.

This statement should be very enlightening of what your problem is. I suspect, though granted I have no evidence, that in truth you’re not looking for reasons to believe in God, but in reasons to disbelieve. Otherwise, why limit yourself to the five senses and/or indisputable historical evidence? Especially given that the Christian God is a spiritual being, where spirit isn’t perceivable by the five sense. Also, the indisputable historical evidence part should also lend strength to the reasons for your disbelief: what is indisputable? Almost always, someone asking for “indisputable” evidence has a priori decided that there is no such thing, and thus cannot be swayed by any argument.

I don’t mean to sound harsh or condescending here, and I apologize immediately if I have offended. I make these statements not only because I’ve encountered numerous apologists who will say the same thing, but because I was also there myself, at one point in time. I wanted to be able to prove the existence of God beyond a shadow of a doubt. In fact, I thought I could, given time and learning, eventually learn everything about everything. In this, I tipped towards agnosticism and even at time outright atheism because over time it seemed increasingly impossible to make that proof. And if I couldn’t make that proof, the certainly that should have been sufficient cause to disbelieve in God.

The problem? Pride was in the way. In order for me to accept the existence of God, I had to swallow my pride accept that there were some things that simply could not be proved. Now, that does not mean that there aren’t very reasonable and very persuasive arguments for the existence of God, and some that come very close to concrete proofs, though there are holes. But that’s besides the point. Pride lay between me and God.

If you truly wish for help in finding faith in God, then the first thing you need to do is identify exactly what is at stake. Find out what you think you lose if you have faith in God. Meditate on this. Take your time. Are there things God calls you to do that you don’t want to do? For example, does God want you to be chaste, but you don’t want to be? (This was another stumbling block for me, a very significant one, but one I couldn’t even acknowledge until pride had been humbled. Quite forcibly, actually.) Do all the devotions seem like a hassle? Do you have peers whose respect you fear you’ll lose by proclaiming faith in God? It doesn’t have to be any of these, but I think there’s a reason there, a significant one.

Don’t content yourself with falling back on: “If I accept God, I’m accepting something on blind faith, completely without evidence.” The reason there seems to be no evidence is not because there isn’t any, but because you a priori reject any evidence there is.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence and that is completely lacking in my opinion.

That’s quite an extraordinary claim, claiming that extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence. Where’s your extraordinary evidence of that? Of course, what even qualifies as an extraordinary claim, or extraordinary evidence?

I don’t mean to be flip here. I’m simply pointing out one major flaw in your argument. (cf Extraordinary Evidence Fallacy by Jimmy Akin.) But the key thing to realize is that in your first post alone you:

1. Posit that belief in God requires extraordinary evidence
2. Deny that any evidence but ordinary sensory or indisputable historical evidence will suffice.

Do you realize how you’ve set yourself up here? I suppose you could try to argue that sensory evidence or historical evidence could potentially be extraordinary, but you’ll have a very difficult time reconciling those notions.

Please. Take my recommendation and meditate on exactly what you stand to lose if you believe in God. Only once you realize what stands in your way will you be capable of making an honest assessment of evidence and reason.

I will add my prayers for you, as well.

Cairone

 

[Aleii]

Boy, I feel like I wrote the OP. Retreats, adoration, prayer, study, counsel with priests, etc, over a little more than a decade, and nothing helped strengthen my crumbling faith which I desperately clung to.

Touching on some of the earlier posts’ points, having faith in the Christian God and having faith that Europe exists are two very different things. I can travel to Europe at any time. While there is good evidence for a man named Jesus, the supernatural aspects of it don’t add up very concretely to me, especially when you’ve got people from many other religions that say their religion is the truth because they have XYZ that religion B,C,D, doesn’t have.

Pascal’s wager is also faulty because it does not take into account many things, such as what if you are worshiping the wrong god, or, what if god will only get angrier that the main reason you are worshiping him is to selfishly get into heaven, etc.

Faith is not a light switch, it is not a choice, IMHO. I can not honestly choose to believe in the tooth fairy, as it makes no sense to me, nor can I choose belief in the Catholic God. Researching comparative religion has only loosened my strands of faith.

It bothers me when people automatically assume that those who are not Christian have ‘chosen’ that path “of their own selfish desires, to make themselves gods, because it is easier, because they want to sin, they don’t really want faith, they did not ask for it correctly, it is a phase”, etc. Many automatically turn it against the person, saying there is something wrong with them if they don’t have faith.

This link is of a person’s loss of faith journey from fundamentalist Christian to atheist, and the majority of it echoes a lot with my story, and possibly yours too. It is very well written.

iidb.infidels.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=72552

Feel free to PM me if you’d like. It is a tough road to be on.

 

[Philthy]

I have tried so hard over the past ten years to believe in god; specifically the christian god but I just can’t. To believe in something, I need to be able to verify it with at least one of the five senses that god supposedly blessed us with and/or indisputable archeological/historical evidence. I can’t just believe in something because everybody around me does; I am just not wired that way. I would love to believe and have faith in god but no evidence points in that direction.

Im a little perplexed. Why would you “love to believe and have faith”? Are you hoping to accomplish something by having faith? Please explain…Understanding your “desire” to “have faith” may be a key to developing faith.

There, however, is no proof that I have ever seen for the existance of god, satan, heaven, hell, or anything else of that nature.

I dont wish to go down the “proof” direction unless necessary. Briefly consider the basis for your assumption that all reality is “provable”. Do you accept that premise on a sort of faith as well?

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence and that is completely lacking in my opinion. I hope not too many people jump all over at once for this post. Take care.

-Curtis

Would you have more faith if you witnessed someone who had died rise from the dead?

 

[RebeccaJ]

It bothers me when people automatically assume that those who are not Christian have ‘chosen’ that path “of their own selfish desires, to make themselves gods, because it is easier, because they want to sin, they don’t really want faith, they did not ask for it correctly, it is a phase”, etc. Many automatically turn it against the person, saying there is something wrong with them if they don’t have faith.

Yes, I agree with this, all the way.

However (yep, a however), there is a choice involved. You came to a point where you made the choice to stop trying. Which isn’t saying anything is “wrong with you”. Just saying, you made a choice.

 

[Aleii]

Yes, I agree with this, all the way.

However (yep, a however), there is a choice involved. You came to a point where you made the choice to stop trying. Which isn’t saying anything is “wrong with you”. Just saying, you made a choice.

Why do you assume I’ve stopped trying?

 

[jimmy]

I can’t just believe in something because everybody around me does; I am just not wired that way.

Essentially that is what we all do with science and with history and with everything we don’t personally verify by our senses. Can you personally verify that a Hydrogen atom has one electron? If you haven’t personally done the research then you are simply going by what others around you believe. The same goes with any other scientific idea. And history is the same. You think George Washington was the first president? That is only because others have affirmed it. It is not because you can verify it yourself. There are many things we must accept on faith. It is not a bad thing. Just be open to the idea that most of the time you have to be dependant on other people for you knowledge of truth. Faith in God is no different. We must be willing to accept by faith first so that we may eventually understand.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence and that is completely lacking in my opinion. I hope not too many people jump all over at once for this post. Take care.

I think that the fact of our existence is a pretty good proof in itself of the existence of God. You might be able to say man was formed through evolutionary mechanisms and common descent and that the big bang was the beginning of the universe but that still does not get to the beginning of it all. The fact is that all things have a cause, even the big bang. Creation did not simply pop into existence randomly. As any generally Chemistry book will show you no reaction happens randomly. And what appears to be random is only happening according to laws that necessitate the reaction. That said, it seems impossible to say that God does not exist.

 

[puzzleannie]

About as well as your venomous sarcasm.

if you interpret an attempt to look at position logically as sarcasm, you can benefit only from prayer at this point. a good college course in logic would probably be more beneficial than investigating claims of various religions.

 

[jimmy]

After looking at your youtube page it seems that this is a useless discussion.

 

[RyanML]

I have tried so hard over the past ten years to believe in god; specifically the christian god but I just can’t. To believe in something, I need to be able to verify it with at least one of the five senses that god supposedly blessed us with and/or indisputable archeological/historical evidence.

I can’t just believe in something because everybody around me does; I am just not wired that way. I would love to believe and have faith in god but no evidence points in that direction.

I have looked at previous answers here on the boards so please don’t use the “how do you know that you exist?” argument. I guess if blind faith is what it takes to be saved and the christian god exists, I’ll just be outta luck. There, however, is no proof that I have ever seen for the existance of god, satan, heaven, hell, or anything else of that nature.

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence and that is completely lacking in my opinion. I hope not too many people jump all over at once for this post. Take care.

-Curtis

Faith is a gift. It can not be earned or forced by our own efforts. But we must be disposed to receive that gift. I had strong faith through my teen years and then seriously drifted away and, through comparative religion studies, came to believe that perhaps God exists, but that’s about it. All the other religion stuff was useless. But God never let go of me and he brought me back to the conviction and practice of my faith and I praise and thank Him for such a gift. Keep searching and praying and I will pray for you also. God bless

 

[RebeccaJ]

Why do you assume I’ve stopped trying?

You talk of your faith in the past tense. And have turned to atheism for answers (infidels.org).

 

[tomarin]

Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary evidence and that is completely lacking in my opinion. I hope not too many people jump all over at once for this post. Take care.

Curtis,

If you’re disinclined to believe in God, then how do you explain the existence of evil in this world?

 

[BRB]

That prayer did one thing. It affirmed that I have barely a traceable drop of faith left; if that. It’s sobering but helped show me where I stand. .

Good. You have taken the first step. You have admitted you are outside God’s sphere of love.

The next step is to pray to Christ to send you one who can explain the Gospel to you.

Remember, God can not deal with you apart from his Church of Christian believers. Scripture teaches “Where 2 or 3 are gathered in my name … there am I”.

So, thru the Church or thru a Christian witness … is your only hope to get introduced to God, thru Christ.

Those who seek will find. But, always pray to Christ. Christ will answer your prayers — praying to God, apart from Christ, will bear you no salvation.

 

[Aleii]

You talk of your faith in the past tense. And have turned to atheism for answers (infidels.org).

The only thing I see that I wrote in the past tense was my a list of events I’ve done over the years and that I was desperate. I am only recently starting to have peace about not having faith.

There are Catholics from this very board who go to IIDB to debate others. I have been on this board longer and am far more active here. I went there initially for the purpose of seeing if counter arguments to Catholicism would seem ridiculous and strengthen my faith that way. It didn’t. In my past posts I have written numerous times that this is a life long journey.

The linked story really applies to me as a lot mirrors what I have gone through. It helps to know you are not alone, which is why I am passing on that linked story today.

 

[PraRFLEsEkHm]

Hi

Sorry this is kinda long - I don’t think I know how to give short posts

With or without Scripture we know that God Is:

Rom 1:19** For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God himself has made it plain to them.**
Rom 1:20 For since the creation of the world his invisible attributes-his eternal power and divine nature-have been understood and observed by what he made, so that people are without excuse.

Faith is the engine which prompts us to search.
In searching we are given more Faith to find that which is the Truth contained within us. Then we given even more Faith to accept that Truth when we find it

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things we hope for, the certainty of things we cannot see.

All of which comes through Grace.

Grace is something God offers to us of His own free will in order to fulfill His wish that we all be saved.

2Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow about his promise, as some people understand slowness, but is being patient with you. He does not want anyone to perish, but wants everyone to come to repentance.

In order to fulfill His wish we must accept and then act upon the Graces He gives us. For example, Scripture states that no one seeks God

Romans 3:10 As it is written, "Not even one person is righteous.
Rom 3:11 No one understands. No one searches for God.
Rom 3:12 All have turned away. Together they have become worthless. No one shows kindness, not even one person!

Yet, people seek Him. Scripture states again that no man can come to the Lord unless God draw him

Joh 6:44 No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him to life on the last day.

When God offers us Grace and we do not act upon it, that grace is lost to us. If we do not believe in the reality that Jesus died and rose again, it is toward our own destruction

Joh 3:18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe has already been condemned, because he has not believed in the name of God’s unique Son.
Joh 3:19 And this is the basis for judgment: The light has come into the world, but people loved the darkness more than the light because their actions were evil.

The Grace we received to question about God and to hear and receive the Scriptures is for nothing, if we do not accept and then act upon that knowledge

Romans 10:9 If you declare with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

So Faith and Grace are mixed together into the search for Truth and the acceptance of that Truth once found, all by the Grace of God - in whom we seek.

The fact that you are searching means that you are acting upon that grace. Just keep searching and He will lead you, He did me - as well as many others here.

“Seek and you shall find” - is a promise God gave to us.

Mat 7:7 "Keep asking, and it will be given to you. Keep searching, and you will find. Keep knocking, and the door will be opened for you.

Peace

John

 

[notacat]

I can’t just believe in something because everybody around me does; I am just not wired that way.

Have you studied the Bible? The Bible contains many detailed prophecies that have been fulfilled. For example, read Psalm 22. This Psalm was written hundred of years before crucifixion was invented.

Take a look at the prophecies in Daniel 9. They are amazingly accurate.

*For the word of God is living and active and sharper than any two-edged sword, and piercing as far as the division of soul and spirit, of both joints and marrow, and able to judge the thoughts and intentions of the heart. (Heb 4:12 NAS77)

*We need to be in His Word.

 

[Scoobyshme]

If you like to listen rather than read, you can download an excellent (and free) talk by Dr. Don Bierle (PhD in Biology) entitled: A Biologist Asks, “Where’s the Evidence for God?”

at the following link:

maclaurin.org/mp3_search.php?keyword=Bierle

He gives scientific proof that God exists. Very logical, very clear, excellent speaker.

 

[catholic1seeks]

#1 I*** will pray for you. ***

You do have a desire for God, correct? It seems like many, if not all, temperol desires can be fulfilled here on Earth. If there is a need, then that need can be fulfilled. One of these desires I have and everyone has is the desire for God.

Of course, we as Christians believe God created us out of love; the “point” of life is to know Him, love Him, and serve Him.

 

[curtishouse29]

There are just so many replies on here that I’m not going to try to answer them all but I really do love all of the diverse and thought-provoking answers. If anybody would like to talk through PM, I would love for that opportunity. Well talk to you all later.

Curtis

 

[Cairone]

It bothers me when people automatically assume that those who are not Christian have ‘chosen’ that path “of their own selfish desires, to make themselves gods, because it is easier, because they want to sin, they don’t really want faith, they did not ask for it correctly, it is a phase”, etc. Many automatically turn it against the person, saying there is something wrong with them if they don’t have faith.

While it may seem arrogant to suggest that someone is not a Christian because of “their own selfish desires”, there is a lot of truth in that. The two reasons that exist for a person not to become Christian are 1) ignorance and 2) an unwillingness to give up something personal in exchange for the Christian truth. I really don’t want to offend people, but at some point you simply have to say A is A.

I’m not trying to say something is wrong with a person if he can’t bring himself to believe in God, or in the Christian faith. What I am saying is that if there’s a problem in believing, there’s a reason. This lack of belief and faith doesn’t simply exist in a void. There is something there blocking the road to faith, and that obstacle has to be overcome before a person can arrive at faith.

Does it have to be selfish desires blocking the road to faith? Not at all. A true desire for justice, coupled with ignorance or misinformation, can make belief in God a truly difficult thing. A lot of people struggle with “I can’t believe in God, because if He exists, He wouldn’t have taken this dear person from me.” In other words, the problem of evil poses a huge obstacle when it isn’t coupled with the knowledge that God permits evil to draw greater good out of it.

Also, there are times when a struggle to find faith is indicative of a very positive process. The original poster indicated that he couldn’t simply accept God on blind faith. There is nothing at all wrong with that statement. No one should have to accept God on blind faith, especially when there are so many reasons to believe in God that makes faith in Him not blind. Sometimes a person realizes one morning that he’s been accepting something as axiomatic without ever wondering why. Some people will shrug off the doubt and continue believing anyways; others will question, and find they never had the reasons they needed, and thus need to find those reasons.

Nevertheless, when a person finds a huge stumbling block between himself and faith in God, that obstacle has a name. It doesn’t help matters to suggest that the obstacle doesn’t exist, even if that seems the kinder, more respectful path to take in regards to a person’s feelings. The obstacle needs to be identified, for otherwise it is very, very difficult to get around it. True, the identification process can be painful and may require in some cases a candid self-honesty that is difficult to come by.

I do certainly agree that if an advocate of faith come across as accusatory and condemning, then it becomes very difficult to even muster the willingness to search for faith. So perhaps I was unfair when I suggested the original poster might be looking for reasons to disbelieve rather than reasons to believe. However, I still insist that there is a grave flaw in his quest if he demands extraordinary evidence for God, and then only allows ordinary evidence for consideration. This dilemma has to be examined and resolved if he truly wants to find faith, and it does him no favors to suggest otherwise.

Cairone

 

[Lisdogan]

I keep thinking about your question - and have done so over the past couple of days. I long for faith as I long for unconditional love.

Four years ago I decided to embark on a ‘spiritual quest’, to look at various religions and value systems, and to try to understand first of all why humankind has so persistently - since the beginning of man-time - needed to have belief or faith in a higher Being. I will deal with that later.

I converted from my mainline Canadian Protestant church recently to the Catholic Church, so I have had to do some deep thinking - and feeling (moving from head to heart as the Bishop says). There have been a number of things - sayings, thoughts, Biblical texts - that have influenced me and I would like to share them with you.

You should know at the outset however, that for those born into faith, it is often accepted from Day 1 that one is a Child of God. This makes it unnecessary to question the principle of faith, for most people. So they have one up on us who have to ‘discover’ faith for ourselves, if we are minded to do so.

There is not a day that goes by, since I realised that I was in a relationship with the God of the Jews, that I have not questioned my faith. I wobble all over the place. My head gets in the way of my heart: ‘trying to combine intellectual scepticism with Christian profession tears a person apart’ (from St Jerome’s Biblical Commentaries). (Take heart from the fact that even learned Catholic theologians wobble too!)

OK, so here is my thought for today (the other thoughts are a bit shorter and will come later). Sorry for the length here but I am trying to think how God manifests himself to humankind: does He say or do anything by which we can know Him?

Thought for the Day

Many (Catholic) Christians believe (or know) that God directly intervenes in both the material world and in the social world. That is, because God is believed to be omnipotent, he is capable of directing the forces of both nature and the interactions of humankind.

Prayer is one way of drawing God’s love and compassion towards earthbound creatures: asking for success in examinations, a safe journey, a cure for cancer, a peaceful death, salvation afterwards. God (‘seeing the sparrow fall’) has a vested interest in answering such prayers directly, and is perceived to do so.

Miracles may also occur that interrupt the flow of the laws of nature and social interaction to achieve God’s intent, or that of the supplicant. The Catholic Church subscribes to the ‘truth’ that about 10 million miracles are performed daily around the world, as bread and wine are transubstantiated.

For other Christians, including some Catholics certainly, alternative assumptions are made that:

(1) Immutable natural laws have been established within the realm of our knowledge (we may not know much outside our own galaxy): Newton’s observations suggest that apples will not fall up, Einstein’s take on relativity eg are, thus far, deemed to be immutable. If natural law were changeable and unpredictable, our life would be random and truly brutish.

(2) Social interaction and the well-being of the global community and its individuals lies in the hands of intelligent human beings in two ways: (a) undoing the damage caused by natural disasters (tsunamis, earthquakes, avalanches, volcanoes, extremely resistant TB and HIV/AIDS) so as to mitigate human suffering; and (b) working together, using the skills which humans have developed for equitable quality of life, for the good of all.

Looks to me as if human brains evolved in part to work through problems inflicted on the human species. Difficulty is that it is clear that the brain has not evolved sufficiently in its 50,000 year history to deal with the natural and social disasters visited upon humankind. We are not doing a good job.

(There is evidence however that the evolution of the human brain has speeded up in recent times. There is a need for speed. I keep remembering that the dinosaurs ruled earth for 160 million years (where was God during that period?); intelligent human life is not even on the time map in a world that is already 4 billion years old.)

Where is this taking me? I am convinced that an omnipotent god, the God of the Christians and Muslims for example, could of course intervene in the natural and social order of Planet Earth. For some reason, God has chosen not to do so.

There is no scientific evidence of prayers answered, except as they may have a placebo effect on the supplicant. (We find what we look for.) Miracles are becoming less and less fashionable: it is hard to find one or two performed in the 20th century by Mother Theresa (who was perhaps herself a ‘miracle‘). Disasters happen inevitably, given a clash of natural causes, and we know again and again that God has apparently done nothing to prevent them.

So, no answer to prayers: and no evidence of God’s love in that direction. No miracles, and no evidence of God’s love in that direction either. No prevention of natural disasters and no evidence of God’s love in that direction.

Why do I continue to be a Catholic Christian? What proof have I of God’s love and the goodness which must follow from it? Miracles, answers to prayer, and disasters undone are not my route to God Creator, Abba Father, Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, Son of God and Man, Holy Spirit Paraclete.

First, although my intellect tells me that many tenets of the Christian faith are impossible to believe, prove or accept in a scientific sense, it also tells me that I am surrounded by loving compassion when I put myself in the presence of God, Abba Father. This is a tangible presence, and it has had tangible effects on my psyche, my emotional well-being, and my strength and courage to continue when to do so was self-destructive. This is not a miracle, not an answer to prayer, but experiential.

Second, I see that goodness survives in the face of dire evil in the world. (I have lived through five civil wars, one genocide, the slaughter of HIV and AIDS - and now drug resistant TB - with the wretched of the earth, those who live only to survive.)

Goodness itself survives in the character of individuals like Nelson Mandela, Mother Theresa, Mahatma Ghandi, Buddha; in communities, organisations and countless individuals committed to assisting and supporting others at almost altruistic levels.

Above all, Jesus of Nazareth, whether or not he was divine (what does divine mean?) exemplified goodness to a sublime degree.

Love in Christ,