I just don't get it....

[Moore11]

Thanks for the defense guys (yea, I obviously knew I was getting in hot water when I posted it). On further reflection, I whould rephrase my original post from “this is very understandble since it is not the natural state of married life” to “this is very understandble since it is not the normal state of married life”.

I think we can all agree that NFP is not the norm for how married life should be excercised, but a way that is allowable with serious cause. I know that there are many couples who find themselves, justifyably so, in a state of practicing NFP on a permanent basis. Often times, this is for legitimate for financial purposes. But that does not make it normal, it is simply a reflection on our corrupted economic and social system that families find themselves needing two incomes to support a small number of kids.

Geesh another way for me to go off on a tangent.
This is why I dont like the morality of NFP being used without much guidance from the Church. A couple in California USA may have a different idea of what a just financial reason is than someone in a third world country. I’m not talking about someone who has a kid and then that would starve one of their previous children just someone who doesnt think about owning a home, college, private school 2 nice cars and etc. See the minimum standard of financial reasoning can be different to different cultures and that is what makes this whole thing kind of bug me. In no other moral discernment is there a difference of grave matter by finances or cultural norms of what we consider poverty. I cant kill someone because I am poor or rich. But I can decide when to use NFP based on secular definitions of lifestyle. Weird.

 

[Brightest_Star]

I admit I don’t know anything about being married, or even what ABC* is*. (Alternate birth control??)
I do know that if the man I loved wouldn’t kiss/hug me, and didn’t want be around me, unless he was going to have sex with me, well I’d be really, really hurt…
I mean, that’s a pretty harsh rejection.

In fact that’s pretty much a clear indication that the man doesn’t really love you at all, isn’t it? That’s what they tell us singles in the dating world -that’s what we tell our daughters- ; if he doesn’t want to be around you unless he can have sex with you than he’s lying about loving you. He just wants sex. Run. I never knew that could happen to a woman who was married. It’s really discouraging.

Maybe it’s more complicated than I understand, but you actually* said* you don’t want to kiss her when you can’t have sex with her. You don’t seem to notice or care how hurtful your actions/avoidance can be.

I wish you all the best and whatnot, I don’t think you’re a bad person, I just wanted to point out that witholding affection from your wife unless sex is attached might be really hurtful to her. It certainly sends a bad message.

 

[Musician]

You know, if I were this gentleman asking this question and getting the answers some of you have given, I’d say “forget it” and chuck the whole idea. He came here and spoke of his experience, which has been real to him and is causing a problem in his marriage, and he’s treated like he’s some sort of a pervert with a sex drive he can’t control. I hope none of you are in the business of counseling people in this area, you are distinctly unhelpful and quite judgmental. This couple is trying to do the right thing, and the man is being honest.

To the OP: go talk to your priest or contact the Diocese and ask for a referral to someone with expertise in this area, or contact the Couple to Couple League for some help and support. Also try to find some live people to talk to. An internet forum isn’t the best place to get this type of advice.

Hopefully, with prayer and the proper counseling you can get this problem solved.

I know…aren’t we supposed to be a little more compassionate here???

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I admit I don’t know anything about being married, or even what ABC* is*. (Alternate birth control??)
I do know that if the man I loved wouldn’t kiss/hug me, and didn’t want be around me, unless he was going to have sex with me, well I’d be really, really hurt…
I mean, that’s a pretty harsh rejection.

In fact that’s pretty much a clear indication that the man doesn’t really love you at all, isn’t it? That’s what they tell us singles in the dating world -that’s what we tell our daughters- ; if he doesn’t want to be around you unless he can have sex with you than he’s lying about loving you. He just wants sex. Run. I never knew that could happen to a woman who was married. It’s really discouraging.

Maybe it’s more complicated than I understand, but you actually* said* you don’t want to kiss her when you can’t have sex with her. You don’t seem to notice or care how hurtful your actions/avoidance can be.

I wish you all the best and whatnot, I don’t think you’re a bad person, I just wanted to point out that witholding affection from your wife unless sex is attached might be really hurtful to her. It certainly sends a bad message.

ABC is an acronym for ARTIFICIAL birth control, such as the pill, IUD, shot, even condoms.

 

[Brightest_Star]

Cool, Thanks!

 

[etmom]

I dont want to derail the thread here and it could just be the semantic devil in me but I cannot concede that everyone who uses NFP is “open to life” NFP can be used and is sometimes used for just reasons as something that is more closed to creating new life than any barrier method. Used by a knowledgeable person, in its most conservative way with someone who has ideal cycles, NFP is virtually fail proof. :

For those who use Nfp for lifethreatening reasons, it needs to be highly effective. I cannot imagine using the most conservative form of Nfp long term (10-15 years) for anything less than extremely grave reasons - the restrictions to do so are pretty much 95% abstainance for many couples. To use Nfp like this would require extreme sacrifice, and I could not imagine doing so long term for less than life or death reasons. Short term, even a few years, perhaps.

 

[Moore11]

I admit I don’t know anything about being married, or even what ABC* is*. (Alternate birth control??)
I do know that if the man I loved wouldn’t kiss/hug me, and didn’t want be around me, unless he was going to have sex with me, well I’d be really, really hurt…
I mean, that’s a pretty harsh rejection.

In fact that’s pretty much a clear indication that the man doesn’t really love you at all, isn’t it? That’s what they tell us singles in the dating world -that’s what we tell our daughters- ; if he doesn’t want to be around you unless he can have sex with you than he’s lying about loving you. He just wants sex. Run. I never knew that could happen to a woman who was married. It’s really discouraging.

Maybe it’s more complicated than I understand, but you actually* said* you don’t want to kiss her when you can’t have sex with her. You don’t seem to notice or care how hurtful your actions/avoidance can be.

I wish you all the best and whatnot, I don’t think you’re a bad person, I just wanted to point out that witholding affection from your wife unless sex is attached might be really hurtful to her. It certainly sends a bad message.

Your mindest is great for being chaste in a single life and dicerning marriage:thumbsup:
however within a marriage sex is one of the most important aspects. While you may be focused on the idea that a man cannot kiss you without wanting more dont forget that the “yes” you say at the altar makes it real hard and sometimes hurtful when a woman says, No! I am not saying that the woman IS hurtful just that it doesn’t exactly feel good in the context of union of a marriage.

 

[Moore11]

For those who use Nfp for lifethreatening reasons, it needs to be highly effective. I cannot imagine using the most conservative form of Nfp long term (10-15 years) for anything less than extremely grave reasons - the restrictions to do so are pretty much 95% abstainance for many couples. To use Nfp like this would require extreme sacrifice, and I could not imagine doing so long term for less than life or death reasons. Short term, even a few years, perhaps.

Yup, absolutely.

 

[tafan]

Geesh another way for me to go off on a tangent.
This is why I dont like the morality of NFP being used without much guidance from the Church. A couple in California USA may have a different idea of what a just financial reason is than someone in a third world country. I’m not talking about someone who has a kid and then that would starve one of their previous children just someone who doesnt think about owning a home, college, private school 2 nice cars and etc. See the minimum standard of financial reasoning can be different to different cultures and that is what makes this whole thing kind of bug me. In no other moral discernment is there a difference of grave matter by finances or cultural norms of what we consider poverty. I cant kill someone because I am poor or rich. But I can decide when to use NFP based on secular definitions of lifestyle. Weird.

I think you are arguing with something I am not saying. I agree that there are likely many people who practice NFP without serious cause and that some of these poeple are not open to life (as your previous post stated). And I especially agree that, if at all possible, a couple should NOT decide to practice NFP and to consult a very good priest for guidance (I believe at one time this was almost a requirement in the Church).

All I was saying, and it is not a tangent IMO, is that NFP is not normal, so the OP’s problems are understandable. I was justifying my calling it not normal by showing that even when many couples who **legitimately **practice it for financial reasons, this just shows that the overall situation is NOT normal but a by product of our corrupted society we live in.

I would add, that the problem among NFP advocates of it being practiced without a just cause is diminishing over time as people better understand the church’s teaching in this regard. I remember, 20 some years ago, a Catholic couple who I respected a lot and were NFP teachers at our parish gave a short presentation to a small group of us. When describing their own situation, It was obvious that they were planning on practicing NFP indefinitely and for very questionable reasons. The need for serious reasons never came out of their mouth. It was all about “how great NFP was”. I rememebr telling my wife afterwards that they were very wrong, IMO. Well, I know other NFP teachers these days, and that would never happen anymore around here. They all stress the need for serious reasons, it seems to be very well known now a days.

 

[Moore11]

I think you are arguing with something I am not saying. I agree that there are likely many people who practice NFP without serious cause and that some of these poeple are not open to life (as your previous post stated). And I especially agree that, if at all possible, a couple should NOT decide to practice NFP and to consult a very good priest for guidance (I believe at one time this was almost a requirement in the Church).

All I was saying, and it is not a tangent IMO, is that NFP is not normal, so the OP’s problems are somewhat understandable. I was justifying my calling it not normal by showing that even when many couples who **legitimately **practice it for financial reasons, this just shows that the overall situation is NOT normal but a by product of our corrupted society we live in.

I would add, that the problem among NFP advocates of it being practiced without a just cause is diminishing over time as people better understand the church’s teaching in this regard. I remember, 20 some years ago, a Catholic couple who I respected a lot and were NFP teachers at our parish gave a short presentation to a small group of us. When describing their own situation, It was obvious that they were planning on practicing NFP indefinitely and for very questionable reasons. The need for serious reasons never came out of their mouth. It was all about “how great NFP was”. I rememebr telling my wife afterwards that they were very wrong, IMO. Well, I know other NFP teachers these days, and that would never happen anymore around here. They all stress the need for serious reasons, it seems to be very well known now a days.

I have no bone to pick with that at all. You and I are in agreement I really was just going off on something that wasnt related and it is just that the financial thing got me sidetracked. Sorry, I knew you were not saying what I was picking on.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

I admit I don’t know anything about being married, or even what ABC* is*. (Alternate birth control??)
I do know that if the man I loved wouldn’t kiss/hug me, and didn’t want be around me, unless he was going to have sex with me, well I’d be really, really hurt…
I mean, that’s a pretty harsh rejection.

In fact that’s pretty much a clear indication that the man doesn’t really love you at all, isn’t it? That’s what they tell us singles in the dating world -that’s what we tell our daughters- ; if he doesn’t want to be around you unless he can have sex with you than he’s lying about loving you. He just wants sex. Run. I never knew that could happen to a woman who was married. It’s really discouraging.

Maybe it’s more complicated than I understand, but you actually* said* you don’t want to kiss her when you can’t have sex with her. You don’t seem to notice or care how hurtful your actions/avoidance can be.

I wish you all the best and whatnot, I don’t think you’re a bad person, I just wanted to point out that witholding affection from your wife unless sex is attached might be really hurtful to her. It certainly sends a bad message.

I don’t think the OP means he doesn’t love his wife unless they are having sex. I think he means that he finds it … :blushing: too arousing to kiss her when they have to be abstinent. It’s probably very difficult to get control of his mind and body, because he hasn’t really had to do that very much in his marriage. When a couple is using birth control, they can have sexual intimacy pretty much any time they feel like it. If kisses happen, then the rest gets a green light. With NFP, even if you kiss, that’s not going to lead to sex so it may be tough for him to gain that control over his bodily responses.

 

[Brightest_Star]

I don’t think the OP means he doesn’t love his wife unless they are having sex. I think he means that he finds it … :blushing: too arousing to kiss her when they have to be abstinent. It’s probably very difficult to get control of his mind and body…

OH. Hm. Okay, well in that case I’d say…

Maybe approach the wife and see if she’d be willing to adopt modest dress during those off times. I don’t mean dressing like a full on Quaker, but… wear something modest (wrist to ankle) and well, ugly. We’ve all got the ratty old sweatshirts and stained jogging pants hiding somewhere in the back of our closet. It’s not such an old school idea, plenty of women today still DO dress ‘comfortable’ (ugly) when they want to discourage sex. Plus modesty is a virtue so she’d be practicing her virtues. When he’s at work during the day she could dress modestly and nice, and then change at home before he gets there to something much less appealing.
I would think of this as a way to help him out, to take some pressure off, at least for awhile until they learn to adjust themselves to the new schedule.

It’d probably also help to limit the media influence, put certain tv shows, movies, websites etc in the ‘off limits’ box. Stick to family friendly shows or books for that time.

Try bumping up your exercise routine (if you have one, if you don’t, maybe start one). Lots of guys I’ve met will hit the gym or go for a run when they have excess energy.

From what was described the OP hasn’t got an ‘addiction’, but more like a habit. Like trying to quit eating dessert every night. So use some of the strategies you would use to break a habit. Just remember the habit is anytime sex - not your wife. So I stand by what I said before; don’t avoid her or withold your company and niceties from her, because that will be hurtful.

Hope that was helpful.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

OH. Hm. Okay, well in that case I’d say…

Maybe approach the wife and see if she’d be willing to adopt modest dress during those off times. I don’t mean dressing like a full on Quaker, but… wear something modest (wrist to ankle) and well, ugly. We’ve all got the ratty old sweatshirts and stained jogging pants hiding somewhere in the back of our closet. It’s not such an old school idea, plenty of women today still DO dress ‘comfortable’ (ugly) when they want to discourage sex. Plus modesty is a virtue so she’d be practicing her virtues. When he’s at work during the day she could dress modestly and nice, and then change at home before he gets there to something much less appealing.
I would think of this as a way to help him out, to take some pressure off, at least for awhile until they learn to adjust themselves to the new schedule.

It’d probably also help to limit the media influence, put certain tv shows, movies, websites etc in the ‘off limits’ box. Stick to family friendly shows or books for that time.

Try bumping up your exercise routine (if you have one, if you don’t, maybe start one). Lots of guys I’ve met will hit the gym or go for a run when they have excess energy.

From what was described the OP hasn’t got an ‘addiction’, but more like a habit. Like trying to quit eating dessert every night. So use some of the strategies you would use to break a habit. Just remember the habit is anytime sex - not your wife. So I stand by what I said before; don’t avoid her or withold your company and niceties from her, because that will be hurtful.

Hope that was helpful.

Interesting idea, but since he already KNOWS what is underneath the unattractive clothing…Might not work that well. See, it’s not like men are just looking at our physical bodies…Married men are bonded to their wives through the sexual union too…That is how it is meant to be…I am pretty sure that I could wear a burqua and my husband would still want to have sex with me…Not with the burqua on…but he knows what’s under it.

 

[tafan]

From what was described the OP hasn’t got an ‘addiction’, but more like a habit. Like trying to quit eating dessert every night. So use some of the strategies you would use to break a habit. Just remember the habit is anytime sex - not your wife. So I stand by what I said before; don’t avoid her or withold your company and niceties from her, because that will be hurtful.

Hope that was helpful.

This is what is wrong with the world, how can having sex with one’s wife be a bad habit??? This is the type of thinking NFP leads to? Maybe I am a little off, but the OP and his wife were not living in a chaste marriage. Then they straight from that (which is problematic in virture, I agree) to trying to practise NFP. And low and behold it is hard, well fly me to the moon. Go from not having a chaste marriage to living a normal married life before trying NFP and I suspect things will be easier. Unfortunately, they decided that option is not possible. So its tough on them, but don’t make them out to be bad or not virtuous, etc.

 

[Armor_of_Light]

You know, if I were this gentleman asking this question and getting the answers some of you have given, I’d say “forget it” and chuck the whole idea. He came here and spoke of his experience, which has been real to him and is causing a problem in his marriage, and he’s treated like he’s some sort of a pervert with a sex drive he can’t control. I hope none of you are in the business of counseling people in this area, you are distinctly unhelpful and quite judgmental. This couple is trying to do the right thing, and the man is being honest.

To the OP: go talk to your priest or contact the Diocese and ask for a referral to someone with expertise in this area, or contact the Couple to Couple League for some help and support. Also try to find some live people to talk to. An internet forum isn’t the best place to get this type of advice.

Hopefully, with prayer and the proper counseling you can get this problem solved.

…I’m glad you said it. I would have been more blunt.

OP- You are in my prayers, and I’d like to respond when I have more time (not at work).
For now…suffice to sy Yes- NFP gets easier. Yes- absolutely it draws us closer together and to God. More later tonight…

 

[Luvz2travel]

This comment makes absolutely no sense.

So we are to put our souls in jeopardy simply because we do not want to be inconvenienced or irritable?

Read what you posted…a child would make you inconvenienced and irritable…that attitude is what is all wrong with our society. NFP is as I understand it was only intended to be used in cases of severe or serious health issues. Everyone on these forums seems to have the idea that’s it’s an ok substitute for birthcontrol. I find that whole outlook very sad.

 

[Rita77]

This is what is wrong with the world, how can having sex with one’s wife be a bad habit??? This is the type of thinking NFP leads to? Maybe I am a little off, but the OP and his wife were not living in a chaste marriage. Then they straight from that (which is problematic in virture, I agree) to trying to practise NFP. And low and behold it is hard, well fly me to the moon. Go from not having a chaste marriage to living a normal married life before trying NFP and I suspect things will be easier. Unfortunately, they decided that option is not possible. So its tough on them, but don’t make them out to be bad or not virtuous, etc.

Read what you posted…a child would make you inconvenienced and irritable…that attitude is what is all wrong with our society. NFP is as I understand it was only intended to be used in cases of severe or serious health issues. Everyone on these forums seems to have the idea that’s it’s an ok substitute for birthcontrol. I find that whole outlook very sad.

so what are you trying to say that we should expect people to switch from abc to having as many as God will give us? nfp is the middle ground there and has a way of changing peoples heart for the better but it takes time. both of you are bashing nfp and its a only moral option besides leave it up to God. 98% of Catholics use abc. I agree lets not promote nfp as easy as abc but lets not go crazy and then tell people nfp is bad too and leave them with no options like total abstaence or have a baby when your not ready!!! are you leaving it up to God? are you ok with having kids every year for the rest of your fertile life? if not your a hypocrite. are you are unmarried or inferitle if so your a hypocrite.

 

[TheRealJuliane]

so what are you trying to say that we should expect people to switch from abc to having as many as God will give us? nfp is the middle ground there and has a way of changing peoples heart for the better but it takes time. both of you are bashing nfp and its a only moral option besides leave it up to God. 98% of Catholics use abc. I agree lets not promote nfp as easy as abc but lets not go crazy and then tell people nfp is bad too and leave them with no options like total abstaence or have a baby when your not ready!!!

No, 98% of Catholics DO NOT use artificial birth control! Please stop spreading that false statistic around!

 

[Rita77]

No, 98% of Catholics DO NOT use artificial birth control! Please stop spreading that false statistic around!

its close to that for sure. most people don’t have the guts to trust God with their fertilty!!! if they changed it to 86% or even 55% dosen’t matter the majority uses abc. that why I promote nfp.

 

[etmom]

Interesting idea, but since he already KNOWS what is underneath the unattractive clothing…Might not work that well. See, it’s not like men are just looking at our physical bodies…Married men are bonded to their wives through the sexual union too…That is how it is meant to be…I am pretty sure that I could wear a burqua and my husband would still want to have sex with me…Not with the burqua on…but he knows what’s under it.