I just don't get it....

[DJK100]

I have a feeling that eventually there is going to be a study done that shows women who use NFP live longer on average than those that don’t. So many health issues can be averted because of the information gleaned by using it.

Actually there is already something like that.

Read this… (it’s short)

evangelizationstation.com/Pamphlets/648%20A%20Natural%20argument%20for%20NFP.pdf

A quote from the pamphlet.

“Health awareness
A more well-known, nonreligious benefit of NFP is greater health awareness for the woman. By charting fertility signs, couples are more likely to catch any developing problems early, affording prompt and more effective medical intervention when necessary. I cannot tell you the number of stories I have collected over the years of NFP couples catching some problem so early that doctors were amazed but thrilled to have the opportunity to treat the disorder (whether a hormonal issue, infection, cancer, or other disease) with a much greater rate of success than they would have otherwise had. NFP is not just open to life. It saves lives.”

 

[etmom]

chart chart chart eventually you will gain more confidence with the signs of fertility and should be able to shorten 20 to about 10. bbt temp charting helps with any method!! proper bbt temp shift is the only fertle sign that confirms ovulation. if you get a proper bbt temp shift you have a confirmed green light on sex for phase three or cm talk post peak. your just in the learning stage give your wife more time to figure it out. I will be praying a St Joseph novena for all couples struggling with nfp.

I’m a very, very experienced user of NFP. Not all couples can reduce to about 10 days. I know NO women who have used NFP in the perimenopause period, for example, who had only 10 days of abstainance per cycle. Some have had months and months of abstainance. We have experienced this personally. Even with close help from an instructor. It’s important that we are realistic about the challenges that can be involved for SOME couples.

And yes, I have the book “Fertility, Nutrition and Cycles”. It has helped quite a bit. It is not going to correct “normal” cycle irregularities that occur due to age related processes. We are averaging 22 days per cycle. I’m VERY happy, actually delighted it is not 100% abstainance. That’s what NFP has allowed to do. We have very serious reasons not to get pregnant right now, our other option is 100% abstainance. Honestly, it’s brought my husband and I much closer together, much closer in our walk with Christ. Just because it can be a challenge at times, doesn’t mean it’s not worth it. It is.

 

[ryecroft]

that “machine thing” you talk about is a ovulation predictor monitor and are just a prediction of when ovulation may occur and expensive. although they do help many couples who struggle with nfp better prediction ovulations they can’t confirm it like the bbt temp can. the problem is lots of health problems can cause an inadequate bbt temp shift adding to days of abstaince in any given cycle. nothing is perfect thats why I like stm and cross checking all the signs of fertilty instead of just one like the mucus only methods. mucus is the most importaint sign but bbt temp and cervix checks can really help understand a cycle better.

Fertilty cycles and nutrition by Marilyn Shannon rent if from the library if you can. its a excellent book explaining how to fix health problems affecting our cycles.

I’m aware of what the “machine thing” is - but sometimes on here if you name a specific one - like the zetek we have then you can be told that you’re trying to advertize or something which is not my intent. Personally for us checking the CM with machine as well as the salivary glands is one of the only things that even comes close to working - we’ve combined methods when using NFP - temp works for some - not for others but it’s great if you don’t get sick often or often have fluxes because of a health condition. But just for kicks we watch it as well.

And one of the other posters mentioned that NFP can actually save lives in a quote- I’m sure it helps with catching things early - and for that reason I think that women should be familiar with it - but I always look at the comment about it being 99% effective (with perfect use) or whatever - and I remember not so long ago when I was pregnant after using NFP very, very conservatively and came very close to dying. (I’m not going into it but yes we had our charts checked by multiple people -given among other comments “God must have wanted you to be pregnant…” (with a giggle and a wink and the look of -oh isn’t this actually wonderful? - and no, no it wasn’t wonderful) - more like woeful rather than wonderful. I’m lucky to still be alive.
God Bless
Rye

 

[The_Bucket]

Thats a bit personal. But oh well!

I wont get too specific but my wife has health issues (of the non-reproductive sort) that would make it dangerous for her and a child, its a terminal life long thing, the meds she takes for this add a double danger by causing frequent miscarriages (which she says she’d feel guilty for) or debilitating birth defects (heart,brain, lungs, nervous system). Docs are insistent that the meds WILL cause damage to a baby, and to NOT get pregnant.

We thought NFP was away around it, but that failed us too so far.

We are a youngish couple too, so were looking at decades of abstinence. (25-35 years to menopause)

Did you ever try other NFP methods with cross-checking and then stick with Phase III? I agree that it’s not ideal but live never is… and sticking with Phase III is 99% effective.

And did you talk to high-risk OBGYNs about the meds situation or just the doctors who are treating her for whatever medical issue she has? In recent months my wife talked to a regular OBGYN about her condition and they “strongly advised” against any future pregnancies and tried to get her to discuss “permanent” ways to avoid them. That got her quite upset as you might imagine. But then she talked to two high-risk OBGYNs who said she’s probably just fine though there will be a limit at some point for us (probably four or five) before it becomes just far too risky. Always good to get a second opinion, especially from the reproductive experts.

 

[Rita77]

I’m a very, very experienced user of NFP. Not all couples can reduce to about 10 days. I know NO women who have used NFP in the perimenopause period, for example, who had only 10 days of abstainance per cycle. Some have had months and months of abstainance. We have experienced this personally. Even with close help from an instructor. It’s important that we are realistic about the challenges that can be involved for SOME couples.

And yes, I have the book “Fertility, Nutrition and Cycles”. It has helped quite a bit. It is not going to correct “normal” cycle irregularities that occur due to age related processes. We are averaging 22 days per cycle. I’m VERY happy, actually delighted it is not 100% abstainance. That’s what NFP has allowed to do. We have very serious reasons not to get pregnant right now, our other option is 100% abstainance. Honestly, it’s brought my husband and I much closer together, much closer in our walk with Christ. Just because it can be a challenge at times, doesn’t mean it’s not worth it. It is.

I’m not in preimenopause yet and don’t know much about it. I thought 10 days was normal when I wrote that. I’m sure you know this already but for those reading as well the ccl has a preimenopause manual.

 

[Rita77]

I’m aware of what the “machine thing” is - but sometimes on here if you name a specific one - like the zetek we have then you can be told that you’re trying to advertize or something which is not my intent. Personally for us checking the CM with machine as well as the salivary glands is one of the only things that even comes close to working - we’ve combined methods when using NFP - temp works for some - not for others but it’s great if you don’t get sick often or often have fluxes because of a health condition. But just for kicks we watch it as well.

And one of the other posters mentioned that NFP can actually save lives in a quote- I’m sure it helps with catching things early - and for that reason I think that women should be familiar with it - but I always look at the comment about it being 99% effective (with perfect use) or whatever - and I remember not so long ago when I was pregnant after using NFP very, very conservatively and came very close to dying. (I’m not going into it but yes we had our charts checked by multiple people -given among other comments “God must have wanted you to be pregnant…” (with a giggle and a wink and the look of -oh isn’t this actually wonderful? - and no, no it wasn’t wonderful) - more like woeful rather than wonderful. I’m lucky to still be alive.
God Bless
Rye

I agree that the 99% effective isn’t realistic. I’m sorry you had to go through a difficult pregnancy. a more realistic attitude with nfp is not total control of our fertility and sometimes especially with health issues it can be a lot more trusting in God then self control. we can do our best to calculate it but sometimes we get given heavy cross’s anyway. I say this with empathy I have very serious health reasons to use nfp too. even though nfp has been a real struggle for me I understand its my only path to heaven. here is what I’m trying say… its not far just like life. we can’t change what nfp is. nfp is unprotected sex (yes thank God not every day is a fertlie day and we have a way to chart it) but its true that with nfp you have a higher chance of pregnancy. thats why most people (including Catholics) don’t have the guts to even try it. if you use nfp your simply more open to life (pregnancy) then other methods like abc because of the realistic effectiveness rate.

 

[Nate13]

Actually there is already something like that.

Read this… (it’s short)

evangelizationstation.com/Pamphlets/648%20A%20Natural%20argument%20for%20NFP.pdf

A quote from the pamphlet.

“Health awareness
A more well-known, nonreligious benefit of NFP is greater health awareness for the woman. By charting fertility signs, couples are more likely to catch any developing problems early, affording prompt and more effective medical intervention when necessary. I cannot tell you the number of stories I have collected over the years of NFP couples catching some problem so early that doctors were amazed but thrilled to have the opportunity to treat the disorder (whether a hormonal issue, infection, cancer, or other disease) with a much greater rate of success than they would have otherwise had. NFP is not just open to life. It saves lives.”

Thanks for sharing that

 

[ryecroft]

I agree that the 99% effective isn’t realistic. I’m sorry you had to go through a difficult pregnancy. a more realistic attitude with nfp is not total control of our fertility and sometimes especially with health issues it can be a lot more trusting in God then self control. we can do our best to calculate it but sometimes we get given heavy cross’s anyway. I say this with empathy I have very serious health reasons to use nfp too. even though nfp has been a real struggle for me I understand its my only path to heaven. here is what I’m trying say… its not far just like life. we can’t change what nfp is. nfp is unprotected sex (yes thank God not every day is a fertlie day and we have a way to chart it) but its true that with nfp you have a higher chance of pregnancy. thats why most people (including Catholics) don’t have the guts to even try it. if you use nfp your simply more open to life (pregnancy) then other methods like abc because of the realistic effectiveness rate.

My apologies if I sounded rather snippy - it wasn’t my intent. I just seem to have a no win sometimes - I once mentioned the fertility monitor I liked and seemed to work and was sent a lovely note about how I shouldn’t “advertize” on here -
I’m also sorry that you’re going through health problems with this. I won’t expound I shouldn’t have gone too far into what I said - I don’t want to make the thread go off on a completely different subject.
God Bless
Annie

 

[Maxxadict]

I get why we use NFP. I understand it’s what God wants for us in our marriage. I understand it takes prayer, and virtue. What I don’t understand is how NFP is good for a relationship(here it comes…I’m ready for the verbal beatings). I get cranky, frustrated, upset…full of negative emotion. My wife feels like the gatekeeper. So what do you do during the times of abstinence that makes your relationship closer that makes abstinence easier?

I talked with my wife this morning after another sleepless night that ended with me laying on the couch…I finally give up…I’m not going to fight Gods will in our life anymore…all I need now is the strength to carry my cross and follow him…I’m Broken.

 

[Rita77]

I get why we use NFP. I understand it’s what God wants for us in our marriage. I understand it takes prayer, and virtue. What I don’t understand is how NFP is good for a relationship(here it comes…I’m ready for the verbal beatings). I get cranky, frustrated, upset…full of negative emotion. My wife feels like the gatekeeper. So what do you do during the times of abstinence that makes your relationship closer that makes abstinence easier?

I talked with my wife this morning after another sleepless night that ended with me laying on the couch…I finally give up…I’m not going to fight Gods will in our life anymore…all I need now is the strength to carry my cross and follow him…I’m Broken.

you are learning the virtues to help understand the struggles right now. I call it the purifying. pray a St Joseph novena its full of good virtues to help with these problems whit abstinence and fatherhood etc. when you use abc you don’t have these tuff questions or choices to make each day. your dealing with for the first time in a decade. you have to learn to understand the problems its causing your relationship before things get better. its not nfp, its dealing with the knowledge of fertility and sex together again after a decade of abc (we done, oh now were not). you and your wife have to learn to accept that fertility isn’t a problem its natural part of sex. we don’t have complete control and we need to trust God. its tuff learning to trusting God with our fertility, its whats natural and good for the body and soul. when you learn to acept struggles from God joyfully you will get it. here is a list of suggested reading.

Birth Control and Christian Discipleship by John Kippley (founder of ccl stm) only 60 pages $5.
John and Sheila Kippley’s web sit nfpandmore.org its also a blog.
IMPO John and Sheila Kippley are one of the best “theologians” (teachers, writers) on the Catholic teachings on marriage and sex. all of the books are amazing. they have writen many books and any of them would be great reads for the subject. you can read quick articles on the link above.

I’m going to assume that your wife is terrified of pregnancy right now and she need time to gain confidence with nfp and thats way she can’t take any chances. she is scared and sex isn’t even worth it right now to her. over time she may conclude wow my body really does have a patteren nfp really does make since and she may start to feel safe with sex again. it took me 6 months of charting to feel safe.

offering up sufferings as sacrifices can be better than prayer but still pray too. offer up the pain and suffering to God to improve your relationship and nfp.

 

[SummerSmiles]

I get why we use NFP. I understand it’s what God wants for us in our marriage. I understand it takes prayer, and virtue. What I don’t understand is how NFP is good for a relationship(here it comes…I’m ready for the verbal beatings). I get cranky, frustrated, upset…full of negative emotion. My wife feels like the gatekeeper. So what do you do during the times of abstinence that makes your relationship closer that makes abstinence easier?

I talked with my wife this morning after another sleepless night that ended with me laying on the couch…I finally give up…I’m not going to fight Gods will in our life anymore…all I need now is the strength to carry my cross and follow him…I’m Broken.

Do you and your wife pray together? I mean setting aside a time when only the two of you, as a couple, focus on your relationship with God. This is what got my DH and I over that hurdle when we were struggling. We’d always made it a point to pray with our kids, to pray as a family before meals and attend Mass together, but it wasn’t until we had our time with God just as a couple that things really started to improve. (And it wasn’t an overnight thing, it was baby steps.)

Personally, I’ve found NFP to be good for my relationship with my husband because we’ve had to improve on our communication with each other. We both had to know whether it was “green light” or “red light” time, and we had to be able to let the other person know how far was too much temptation for us. And then we had to not be offended when we were told that we couldn’t cuddle in bed, or kiss, or whatever it was that day. It really built up our teamwork skills. And what was too arousing one day might not have been the next day, so we both had to learn to work with each other and understand how the other person was feeling.

There were times when I definitely felt like the gatekeeper. There were times that DH got so frustrated that he would sleep on the couch. Finally, DH and I just had to come to an agreement. We both knew how to read the chart, so on any given day, we both took on the responsibility of not deliberately trying to arouse the other when it was “red light” time. It took a bit of practice, of course. There were times when I was just fine with cuddling in bed, but it was too much of a temptation for DH. So then it became his job to tell me, and my job to not be offended about it. (This is considering that we both agreed that we still had a serious reason to avoid. If you and your wife don’t agree that you have a serious reason anymore, then it’s time to reevaluate how conservatively you will use NFP that month or whether you will use it at all.)

 

[LucyLight]

I’m in a similar situation as you. We can’t have anymore children and we abstain until phase 3. That means abstaining for 19 days each month. We stick with phase 3 only because my obgyn advised us to. He said if you only have sex in phase 3 you will never get pregnant again. We are also fairly young. I don’t sugar coat any of this…its really hard. The only way I could argue that it has been good for our marriage is that it has allowed us to still have sex and kept us out of mortal sin which are both positives. Other than those two issues it has not been good for our marriage. It’s a sacrifice.

When you are young and using NFP indefinitely it really is a unique situation and I don’t think people understand or think about this. When a woman is having a child every two years she is not ovulating the majority of those two years (pregnant 9+ mths then breastfeeding delays for sometimes a year). In fact she may ovulate only once or twice within those two years. It is much easier to abstain when the woman is not ovulating. Ovulating makes is hard for women to abstain (obviously) but it also has an effect on a mans hormones especially when you are sleeping in the same bed.

So I don’t think that you are weak or some sex addict. I think that you are in a uniquely hard situation and you have my sympathy.

 

[SusanneT]

We average about 22 days here. I honestly think that makes it easier to ensure you are using NFP for serious reasons. I went to a Janet Smith presentation recently given at our church on NFP, and she was saying it was like 5-7 days. It would be EASY if it was only 5-7 days…

I agree - I’m sorry I just don’t see how anyone could make 5-7 days work effectively. For us NFP means about 22 days as well.

 

[Moore11]

I get why we use NFP. I understand it’s what God wants for us in our marriage. I understand it takes prayer, and virtue. What I don’t understand is how NFP is good for a relationship(here it comes…I’m ready for the verbal beatings). I get cranky, frustrated, upset…full of negative emotion. My wife feels like the gatekeeper. So what do you do during the times of abstinence that makes your relationship closer that makes abstinence easier?

I talked with my wife this morning after another sleepless night that ended with me laying on the couch…I finally give up…I’m not going to fight Gods will in our life anymore…all I need now is the strength to carry my cross and follow him…I’m Broken.

Man, I could have written your post a year ago. Couches, pouting, sleepless nights, hurt feelings, feeling like it was my cross to bear alone… Seriously, what you are feeling is real, and common. It us unbelievably frustrating but here is what I learned, it isnt NFP, or abstaining or even the idea of abstaining for a long time. But rather that you and your wife are not in union. You dont agree and are not at the same harmonious understanding of what sex and NFP are truly about. What is frustrating here is that your natural God given desire has to be restrained, and we all should exercise the virtue of temperance but emotionally you feel as if every time your wife says “no” she is really saying no to not just sex but you as a husband. My wife and I had a sit down (one of many) where I told her that I respect her and will not “make” her have sex but to absolutely say “no” no possible way will I come together with you in union until I know that we cannot bear a child is a rejection of me as a husband. Like on this particular day we are not married. That was wrong. While your reasons may be grave or serious to one of you. (and that is all that is necessary) you feel rejected.
I have felt that way. It comes down to 2 things.

1. We men can be boys sometimes. I cannot count the times I was on the couch thinking “man, that will show her when she wakes up alone and know that I am still mad.”
2. She and you need to really pray about it and spiritually practice sex not just physically practice it. NFP cannot be used to better a marriage if you are using it with the contraceptive mentality. It isnt meant to be Catholic Trojans and it is being used like that here.
3. You: Be strong! and patient with the woman you love like Christ loved his Church. Get off the couch and stop pouting, it only hurts the situation.
4. Her: Come to terms with what sex means and what it is for. Nurture your man in the way God intended without rejecting him or HIM.

 

[etmom]

I’m not in preimenopause yet and don’t know much about it. I thought 10 days was normal when I wrote that. I’m sure you know this already but for those reading as well the ccl has a preimenopause manual.

I was just giving perimenopause as an example, but many women outside perimenopause also experience extended abstainance due to extended fertility signs in phase II. While extended fertility signs prior to ovulation is “normal” for perimenopause (which can last 8-10 years!!) it happens quite a bit in other women as well. Some women are perimenopausal at 35, others not until they are near 50.

I do have that manual. It’s difficult, and I’m not surprised at all that so many women who may have used NFP during their active, childbearing years suddenly change their mind at this point in their lives, and perhaps cave to pressure from their OB/GYN to get their tubes tied, or have their husbands get a vasectomy. It becomes extremely difficult to follow, signs are all over the place, and teachers don’t have much real life, practical experience. Abstainance can turn into months and months when experiencing long, annovulatory cycles without clear indication of infertility.

It requires a strong relationship (I am blessed beyond measure here), much prayer, access to a good and encouraging priest, and great communication between spouses. Which probably could be said for using NFP at any point in a marriage.

 

[Rita77]

Man, I could have written your post a year ago. Couches, pouting, sleepless nights, hurt feelings, feeling like it was my cross to bear alone… Seriously, what you are feeling is real, and common. It us unbelievably frustrating but here is what I learned, it isnt NFP, or abstaining or even the idea of abstaining for a long time. But rather that you and your wife are not in union. You dont agree and are not at the same harmonious understanding of what sex and NFP are truly about. What is frustrating here is that your natural God given desire has to be restrained, and we all should exercise the virtue of temperance but emotionally you feel as if every time your wife says “no” she is really saying no to not just sex but you as a husband. My wife and I had a sit down (one of many) where I told her that I respect her and will not “make” her have sex but to absolutely say “no” no possible way will I come together with you in union until I know that we cannot bear a child is a rejection of me as a husband. Like on this particular day we are not married. That was wrong. While your reasons may be grave or serious to one of you. (and that is all that is necessary) you feel rejected.
I have felt that way. It comes down to 2 things.

1. We men can be boys sometimes. I cannot count the times I was on the couch thinking “man, that will show her when she wakes up alone and know that I am still mad.”
2. She and you need to really pray about it and spiritually practice sex not just physically practice it. NFP cannot be used to better a marriage if you are using it with the contraceptive mentality. It isnt meant to be Catholic Trojans and it is being used like that here.
3. You: Be strong! and patient with the woman you love like Christ loved his Church. Get off the couch and stop pouting, it only hurts the situation.
4. Her: Come to terms with what sex means and what it is for. Nurture your man in the way God intended without rejecting him or HIM.

I would like to understand better that nfp isn’t Catholic birth control. we are regulating birth with nfp. if we didn’t need to control or regulate when we conceive we would just leave it up to God and have as many has he gives us. I think the problematic attitude with nfp isn’t that its Catholic Birth Control its accepting that is not as effective as other forms of Birth control and is our only moral option to regulate birth. and we either carry our cross with sorrow or with anger maybe with joy or frustration. if its with anger or frustration we need to learn to understand suffering. we must learn to understand why our reasons for using need to be so serious and why its our only moral option.

 

[Moore11]

I would like to understand better that nfp isn’t Catholic birth control. we are regulating birth with nfp. if we didn’t need to control or regulate when we conceive we would just leave it up to God and have as many has he gives us. I think the problematic attitude with nfp isn’t that its Catholic Birth Control its accepting that is not as effective as other forms of Birth control and is our only moral option to regulate birth. and we either carry our cross with sorrow or with anger maybe with joy or frustration. if its with anger or frustration we need to learn to understand suffering. we must learn to understand why our reasons for using need to be so serious and why its our only moral option.

Well said.

 

[DJK100]

Thanks for sharing that

Sure, no problem.

 

[etmom]

I would like to understand better that nfp isn’t Catholic birth control. we are regulating birth with nfp. if we didn’t need to control or regulate when we conceive we would just leave it up to God and have as many has he gives us. I think the problematic attitude with nfp isn’t that its Catholic Birth Control its accepting that is not as effective as other forms of Birth control and is our only moral option to regulate birth. and **we either carry our cross with sorrow **or with anger maybe with joy or frustration. if its with anger or frustration we need to learn to understand suffering. we must learn to understand why our reasons for using need to be so serious and why its our only moral option.

I don’t often see it expressed this way, but my husband and I feel sorrowful because we can’t have another child, that we have to even use NFP. Because given a choice, we would love another child. And that brings us great sorrow, not that we can’t use ABC or another method, or that we have to abstain, but that we can’t simply do what we wish, add another beautiful little person to our family.

 

[Rita77]

I don’t often see it expressed this way, but my husband and I feel sorrowful because we can’t have another child, that we have to even use NFP. Because given a choice, we would love another child. And that brings us great sorrow, not that we can’t use ABC or another method, or that we have to abstain, but that we can’t simply do what we wish, add another beautiful little person to our family.

well said I agree. I would give away my cross (my reason for nfp) to leave spacing up to God in a heartbeat. it took me years to carry my sorrow instead of anger and fustration. I fotgot to say that the biggest problem with nfp is that it isn’t easy to use or learn, and makes it that much harder when we have serious reason to use it. also the lenth of abstain is hard. this thread has help me understand that nfp isn’t a natural state in life (its natural as in no artificial hormones etc) but not natural to have to abstain every month for many days month after month. we are allow because serious reasons do happen but its unnatural.