I just don't get...

[Zundrah]

How do Protestants remain Protestants with the (almost literal) mountain of evidence against them?

I goes like this; “Jesus will save me anyway, because if I believe in him he will save me, period.”

Church Fathers, the Gospels, St. Paul, St. Peter, and most of all, logic!

They deny that all the early Church fathers were Catholic.

It also befuddles me as to how the Reformation created new churches in the first place. It seems to me that most breaks in the Church at that time took place out of anger, not legitimate doctrinal disputes (Henry VII is a prime example).

This*** is ***true but there are inconsistences in the denominations and when these get spotted - oops - we have to start all over again = another denomination.

It seems the anger took over, the split occurred, and the doctrinal stuff got worked out later. That’s probably why 95% of it is so crazy.

Methodism is nice though.

If only Protestants did this:
“He who has ears to hear, let him hear.”

But even mormons say that!

Hear the good news of the RCC I mean…

Yeah, the whore of babalon.

 

[JonNC]

The belief and use of Sola scriptura by Lutherans, Methodists and Reformed Churches has failed to reach a consensus between Lutherans/Methodists and the Reformed Churches regarding OSAS. This proves that the Bible is not the sole source of authority.

The Orthodox and Catholics have failed to reach consensus between the Orthodox and Catholics using Sacred Tradition and Scripture.

Jon

 

[Vile_Servant]

The Orthodox and Catholics have failed to reach consensus between the Orthodox and Catholics using Sacred Tradition and Scripture.

Jon

Jon,

Do you believe that after the Last Judgement, the blessed and the damned remain in the presence of God for all eternity?

 

[Jon_Hus]

…
The vast majority of Protestants know nothing about church history and have never heard of the Early FAthers. Some of the most fervent evangelicals do not believe that the writings of the early fathers should have **any **bearing at all on how we should understand the Holy Scriptures. That is why “to be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant”.

Care to comment on why the rest of us protestants (those of us who do not meet the requirements you laid down above) remain protestant?

 

[Roblox84]

Very simply, the RCC may have the good news, but Protestants have BETTER news!

What I mean by BETTER news is;

a) Guarantee of salvation. Eternal security. Once Saved Always Saved.

b) Going to heaven immediately after death, no need for the purifying flames of purgatory.

c) No need to worry about sin any more because Jesus has paid the full price of all your sins past present and future, once and for all. You are free to sin boldly, as many times as you like.

d) Every individual can obtain all the necessary information for themselves by personal prayer, discernment and studying the bible (“sola scriptura”). No need to believe or obey any “infallible” church teaching. You determine exactly what you wish to believe from the Bible.

e) You are free to form a new church/denomination anytime you want if you don’t agree with everything your current church/denomination teaches, without being labelled a heretic.

f) Jesus is always available to answer your every petition immediately, whenever you ask Him. No need to beat around the bush by asking men, Saints, Angels or Mother Mary to pray for you.

If you know of even better news than this, do let me know!

Why do I hear about this now? After so many years of me going to confession and praying the rosary, Jeez. Why does Catholicism have to be so hard?

 

[Vile_Servant]

Why do I hear about this now? After so many years of me going to confession and praying the rosary, Jeez. Why does Catholicism have to be so hard?

(Matthew 7:13)
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.”

 

[Roblox84]

(Matthew 7:13)
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.”

 

[Roblox84]

Do you know you’re not the only ones calling yourself the true church?

Can someone can go to your house and says he is your true father during the absence of your real father (who had left you a manual for reference) and make changes to your family structure?

And how are you going to stop him? By believing his claims that your grandfather had passed the baton to him using his historical claims and that he is therefore your true father? Is the manual which your father left for you in his absence now made almost defunct and subjected to your new ‘father’s’ ‘additions’???

I understand the point about others calling themselves the “true church” as well. But what I want to know is how can they get at that conclusion knowing that they can just look online and find out that their church has began only a few hundred years ago? So logically, they can’t call themselves the true church. And since Catholicism is the older out of the religions, wouldn’t they be in a good position to call themselves the “true church”? It seems weird because I can’t name just a “regular person” that started the Catholic Church (post the name of founder if there is one, except Peter), but yet there are so many names of people from other denominations that are associated with some kind of a church movement or reform that are known by the people in that particular congregation who have studied their churches history. So naturally, wouldn’t someone not want to follow a religion that is linked with some founder that started it years after the first documented church? And if so, why should that founders belief be any more right then that of the religion which they broke away from? I don’t want this to be confrontational, just something to hear someones position on.

 

[guanophore]

A point I’ve made when told I deny history

.

. As We ALL do; unless we base it on the perception of others.

It is true that everything goes through our perceptions, and yes, we can receive things that have gone through the perceptions of others. This is why it is so important to be able to depend upon God to protect His revelation of Himself to us. This is WHY He had to keep His promise to lead the Church into ALL TRUTH. The Church is infallible in these matters because God saw fit to set things up that way. He knows our shortcomings, and what we need to keep on the straight and narrow.

This is why it is the duty of the magesterium to teach sound doctrine, and prevent heresies.

 **Ah, your understanding is more correct because your church tells you yours is the correct perception.  I see.**

No, it is the other way around. My perceptions are informed by 2000 years of history, and by the revelation of God that has been divinely preserved in the Church. I RECEIVE the gospel from the Church, rather than attemping to extract it 2000 years after the fact from the pages of the Holy Scripture interpreted separately from what the Apsotles beleived and taught.
Dokimas;6421082:

**Chapter and verse showing Peter thought he was the #1 leader and selected the one to follow him as #1 leader**

?

I think you are imposing your worldly ideas about leadership onto the scripture. I said that Peter exercised the office of chief shepherd. He did this in humility, not arrogance. In the last century, we have been fortunate to have popes that have done likewise.

 **I hope you admit this could be true for you as well!!!  If not, I have to say you're not being truthful to yourself**

.

Why would you justifiy your own denial of facts by saying that I am doing the same? How does two wrongs make a right?

I did deny the facts for many years, forsaking the Apostolic faith I sojourned in Protestant communities, absorbing the perceptions of others who extrapolated, rather than received the faith from those to whom Jesus committed it.

 **How much of the teachings in real Christian churches are that significantly different**

???

From personal experience, I have heard many departures from the Apostolic faith that are significant enough to close the doors of heaven to the hearers.

**And the writings of 1900 or 1850 or 1800 or 1750 etc years ago are better and more accurate**

?

They speak to the time in which they are written, and if they are consistent with all that has come down to us from the Apostles their value is increased.

 **And what you're saying is that accept the perceptions of other 1750 yrs old and as I'm sure you've researched it thouroghly, you're researcher bias is a lot older than Mo's.**

I do have a lot of researcher bias. It is amazing that I was able to return to the Catholic Church in spite of it. When I read the documents of the early church in my Protesant Seminary program, I realized that the early Church was Catholic.

**I'm pretty sure you're saying that the CC is responsible for the Bible.  I say the Holy Spirit is responsible**

.

Both are true, of course.

Taking credit for the Holy Spirit’s work

?

It is not about “credit” it is about the Truth. The Truth is that the men who were inspired by God to write were Catholic.

 

[JonNC]

Jon,

Do you believe that after the Last Judgement, the blessed and the damned remain in the presence of God for all eternity?

Hi V.S.,
I would suspect that for those who reject God, living eternally in His presence would probably seem like Hell, but that isn’t what scripture says. Scripture never says that the condemned will live in His presence, but just the opposite. So, no, I don’t believe the damned will live in His presence, though that is His decision, not mine.

Jon

 

[lil_flower_luv]

Hi V.S.,
I would suspect that for those who reject God, living eternally in His presence would probably seem like Hell, but that isn’t what scripture says. Scripture never says that the condemned will live in His presence, but just the opposite. So, no, I don’t believe the damned will live in His presence, though that is His decision, not mine.

Jon

Hi Jon! You are right on with your thoughts! In fact, this topic has been on my mind a lot lately…I would bore everyone if I got into it though. Just wanted to say you hit it on the head, thanks!

God Bless, Therese

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon! You are right on with your thoughts! In fact, this topic has been on my mind a lot lately…I would bore everyone if I got into it though. Just wanted to say you hit it on the head, thanks!

God Bless, Therese

Thanks, Therese.
Jon

 

[Vile_Servant]

Hi V.S.,
I would suspect that for those who reject God, living eternally in His presence would probably seem like Hell, but that isn’t what scripture says. Scripture never says that the condemned will live in His presence, but just the opposite. So, no, I don’t believe the damned will live in His presence, though that is His decision, not mine.

Jon

Hi Jon,

The RCC agrees with you that the damned shall be eternally separated from God after the Last Judgement, while the Orthodox do not. So it is possible to arrive at completely different beliefs and teachings even if both Churches claim to hold fast to scripture and tradition.

Cheers,
V.S.

 

[guanophore]

The Bible is the sole source of authority, and it teaches some doctrines clearly, while others aren’t. This is why Pastors in many Protestant Churches hold advanced degrees in Biblical languages so that the Church (assembly) can come to a consensus.

I think you will find, if you are willing to delve into the history of your faith, that Pastors with advanced degrees in biblical languages and the consensus of the assembly are not part of the Apostolic teaching on the nature and function of the Church. On the contrary, they are modern innovations emanating from teachings of those who have departed from the Apostolic Succession.

 

[DorianGregorian]

I think you will find, if you are willing to delve into the history of your faith, that Pastors with advanced degrees in biblical languages and the consensus of the assembly are not part of the Apostolic teaching on the nature and function of the Church. On the contrary, they are modern innovations emanating from teachings of those who have departed from the Apostolic Succession.

Pastors in the past didn’t need degrees in Biblical Languages because they spoke them in daily life. Note though that Protestants insisted on the Greek version of the Bible dating back to the Reformation while the RCC held on to the supremacy of the Vulgate (a translation dating a few centuries after the originals) for centuries. Now that we all agree that we need the original texts, we may be able to have a “universal” English Bible in this Century. Catholics also have been adopting this method in Scripture study.

Also I doubt intelligence and ordination are related. I’m going to listen to Dr. Pelikan or Dr. Attridge (both Pastors btw) before I listen to a local guy down the street, regardless of their faith. However for Pastoral reasons, Priests and Ministers are better trained.

 

[guanophore]

What’s this about Guanophore missing in action?

I think he is alluding to the fact that I did not respond to his question about whether or not I had the witness of the Spirit within me crying Abba, father.

 

[Sanne]

I decided it was just wishful thinking on his part.

 

[guanophore]

Pastors in the past didn’t need degrees in Biblical Languages because they spoke them in daily life.

Really? Which languages were those? which pastors?

Note though that Protestants insisted on the Greek version of the Bible dating back to the Reformation while the RCC held on to the supremacy of the Vulgate (a translation dating a few centuries after the originals) for centuries.

Actually, the Vulgate is informed by many manuscripts that are no longer available.

Now that we all agree that we need the original texts, we may be able to have a "universal" English Bible in this Century. Catholics also have been adopting this method in Scripture study.

Did you think there was a time when the Catholic Church did not value the original text?

What “method” of scripture study are you referring to here?

Also I doubt intelligence and ordination are related.

Not necessarily. But then, God’s revelation of Himself to man is not dependent upon either.

I’m going to listen to Dr. Pelikan or Dr. Attridge (both Pastors btw) before I listen to a local guy down the street, regardless of their faith. However for Pastoral reasons, Priests and Ministers are better trained.

The difficulty being that none of them were assigned or empowered by God to be the custodians of His revelation of Himself.

 

[DorianGregorian]

Really? Which languages were those? which pastors?

Greek the language of the New Testament.

Actually, the Vulgate is informed by many manuscripts that are no longer available.

It makes the Vulgate more reliable but no infallible.

Did you think there was a time when the Catholic Church did not value the original text?

No, but I believe there was a time in the Western Churches where Greek was devalued and the Latin text raised to a level it wasn’t at.

What “method” of scripture study are you referring to here?

**Textual criticism, and in academia the Historical-critical method, so long as both are pursued with the inerrancy of the Bible (I.E even though Paul probably didn’t write 2 Corinthians), it’s still the Word of God. **

Not necessarily. But then, God’s revelation of Himself to man is not dependent upon either.

I agree.

The difficulty being that none of them were assigned or empowered by God to be the custodians of His revelation of Himself.

In the Roman Catholic view, absolutely. However I believe we are all Priests (1 Peter) so we all have the obligation to understand and interpret Scripture as best as we can, as all Scripture is useful for correcting error.

In Charity,
DG

 

[JonNC]

Hi Jon,

The RCC agrees with you that the damned shall be eternally separated from God after the Last Judgement, while the Orthodox do not. So it is possible to arrive at completely different beliefs and teachings even if both Churches claim to hold fast to scripture and tradition.

Cheers,
V.S.

Hi V.S.
So, how can both be right? And why, after 1,000 years, has Sacred Tradition not brought the unity that Christ called for? So, your post seems to say you agree that Scripture and Tradition has been no more successful that sola scriptura in bringing about one true institutional Church on earth.
For those of us who seek unity, it is clear we must rely more on the Holy Spirit than our own devices.

Jon