I like this forum because it is what I learned in 4th grade

[pianistclare]

Well, oddly enough, some of the reasons why people fall away is precisely because of what they learned in the 4th grade and they never took it any farther. There are many Catholics who have little more than a 4th grade Catechetical understanding of what we believe. So it’s easy for them to be misled.
Catholics and all Christians should be learning right up until their last breath.
There are no “pat” answers when you become an adult.
People who can simply recite the Baltimore catechism need to dig deeper…what does it mean for me?
How can I live this in my current station in life?
My 4th-grade understanding of the Eucharist was very basic. As I grew older, my thirst for understanding grew, and if I had only had non-Catholics around me, I could have been given poor or simply incorrect information.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

People who can simply recite the Baltimore catechism need to dig deeper…what does it mean for me?

This is exactly right. The Baltimore Catechism went out of favor for a reason, and the older Catholics I know were glad to see it, and it’s methodology, tossed aside in favor of something truer to the methodology of Christ.

Hearing Catholics who were educated by nuns pre-Vll regurgitate memorized lines from the Baltimore Catechism is really unimpressive. When a tough question is asked, like of the variety that AL addresses, a canned answer would likely be given with no real understanding of much of anything at all…not unlike many of the canned answers found here by posters here who are certain that the more ancient papal documents and liturgical rubrics that they read about, the closer they will be to Jesus.

It’s sad that all the Church’s work history is now being used by those who have ‘in persona Christi’ envy to joust and swing wildly at windmills.

 

[Saxum]

This is exactly right. The Baltimore Catechism went out of favor for a reason, and the older Catholics I know were glad to see it, and it’s methodology, tossed aside in favor of something truer to the methodology of Christ.

Are you sure this is right? Rote memorisation is a good thing. I’ve never forgotten my multiplication tables and I still remember the date of the Battle of Hastings. The Baltimore has its place and it worked for decades. Nobody will convince me that Catholics were better off when it was ‘tossed aside.’

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

De_Maria, with all due respect, many modern CCD’s have nothing to pay attention TO. …

Well, it’s like this. When I was in school, I didn’t like the curriculum. But I was interested in dogs. But, they didn’t teach us anything about dogs. Did that stop me from learning about dogs? No. You could find me every evening, in the library, devouring every book that had anything to do with dogs.

In other words, if someone’s CCD class fails to get their interest, why don’t they study the Catechism at home or anywhere else? Answer: Because of their own lack of interest.

It is not the Catechist’s job to entertain anyone. It is their job to pass on the Teachings of the Catholic Church. It is up to the individual to put in the effort to learn.

Or lack of exposure. You knew dogs existed because you saw dogs. When a child barely graces the door to a church on holidays where is his great interest going to come from?

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Just so you can clarify for me…

Did you just not know what the word ‘Transubstantiation’ meant? Or did you actually not know about the teaching that the bread and wine became the Body and Blood of Jesus at consecration? It is just dumbfounding to me that someone could make their first communion and confirmation and never learn that.

I had no such teaching. We were taught that Communion was a “gift” from Jesus via the Last Supper. The whole idea of Jesus transforming, body and blood, soul and divinity was not something I heard until my Lifeteen group did an Adoration lifenight. Until then I had never heard of Adoration, either.

 

[Saxum]

I had no such teaching. We were taught that Communion was a “gift” from Jesus via the Last Supper. The whole idea of Jesus transforming, body and blood, soul and divinity was not something I heard until my Lifeteen group did an Adoration lifenight. Until then I had never heard of Adoration, either.

This is EXACTLY what I was taught. Communion is a ‘gift.’ No mention of the Sacrifice of the Mass or the Real Presence.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Because it is allegedly a bestseller—however that is being gauged—the logical inference to be drawn is that the majority of parishes use this material? Not at all. It doesn’t even imply that a plurality of parishes use it. I believe you are an educator, and you should be more used to how evidence can prove one’s assertions than this comment of yours suggests.

But you are quite correct to point out that there was or even is a woeful state of US catechesis. This is a non-scientific assumption that I myself make based on my limited experience. Yet it is true theologically that no one will necessarily come to faith even if they are met with wonderful explanations of doctrine; and thus we can likewise assume that resistance to grace transcends quality of catechesis, as De_Maria seems to assume.

TL;DR: we sometimes pick one of two sides when both sides have valid points.

I did a research project for my Masters for a somewhat decent sized parish near me that involved turning a CCD based catechetics into “whole community.” It was a project based on how to market this to the parish who may want to cling to their old ways. My work came off of a CARA study about the parish in that data it was included what materials were commonly used. The books were the ones I cited above. According to the CARA, we used the same materials as nearly 80% of reporting parishes that did not have a school attached. I believe it was just above 60%…which is a majority. Unfortunately, I will not upload the CARA study that I have because it gives too much information to my location and most of the valuable CARA data is behind a paywall.

That said, if you ever have a chance to get at CARA data, please do. It will give you insights into the Catholic Church that you may not realize.

 

[1Lord1Faith]

Are you sure this is right? Rote memorisation is a good thing. I’ve never forgotten my multiplication tables and I still remember the date of the Battle of Hastings. The Baltimore has its place and it worked for decades. Nobody will convince me that Catholics were better off when it was ‘tossed aside.’

Yes, I’m sure. And I’m glad you brought up math and history. It will help make my point. Math is no longer taught to children the way it used to be (memorization). It is now taught differently…in a way that teaches kids the why’s and how’s of math rather than simply remembering what steps go in what order. It is difficult for me to help with my children’s math homework because I was taught math with a memorization methodology. The same applies the history, names and dates have given way to “big picture” type viewpoints.

 

[De_Maria]

To say that I missed something because of my own fault is ludicrous.

99% of the time, the fault lies with the individual.

Da_Marie continued to blame lack of paying attention after I clarified in my 2nd post. While it was not a direct accusation, it was clear that her feelings

No harm but its HIS feelings.

where that fault lay…if not for me for my compatriots.

For everyone. There were people with poor catechesis before you and after you. Very few people can legitimately blame other people for their own lack of catechesis. Much less the people who were trying to teach them.

I posted a link to one of the best-selling “Catholic” CCD books. This would indicate that a majority of parishes use them. Each shows a sample including the index which highlights the scope of the drivel-level teachings that are given. Take a look.

1. Just because you don’t like them doesn’t mean that everyone feels the same way. Many people will be properly catechized with these books.
2. Each Diocese uses the curriculum they see fit. Not necessarily these books.

Before these sort of colorful monstrosities were introduced a child by 2nd or 3rd grad would have the entire primer version of the Baltimore Catechism memorized and by 6th grade have the thicker, more in-depth version committed to memory. They would also be instructed in the Bible and Church history.

These are simply your opinions. I was catechized with the Baltimore Catechism. I don’t remember memorizing anything but the prayers. I don’t remember anyone memorizing anything but the prayers.

Today a lesson of CCD–for a 6th grader–is 90% feelings based on a rudimentary fact thrown in.

But does it orthodox Teaching? That’s the question. If it does, then it is does its job, feelings based is besides the point.

 

[De_Maria]

Or lack of exposure. You knew dogs existed because you saw dogs. When a child barely graces the door to a church on holidays where is his great interest going to come from?

Indeed. But my family is Catholic and at that time my Grandmother and my great Aunt were members of the Blue Army (a Rosary group.) So I was exposed to the Church.

 

[De_Maria]

BenedicamDominum

That is your own impression that is rooted in your intuiting someone’s intent. It’s not rooted in the objective.

Impressive use of the language.

Frankly, both of you are holding to positions that are rooted in generalizing your own >experiences

My position is based upon empirical experience. I have been a catechist. I have been in CCR in my youth. I have used Catechism programs similar to the one he is condemning. I have observed Catechists who are considered successful. And some which I consider poor.

In my observation, the children who are from households where the parents hold the Faith in high esteem, the children will know the faith before they come to class. Its a pleasure to teach these children before there is little or no teaching necessary.

Then there are the children who have no interest in the Faith, because their parents have no interest in the Faith. They are sent to class to fulfill some perceived cultural norm. These children might learn, if they have some sort of curiosity or interest of their own. But, they usually forget what they learned because it isn’t confirmed at home.

without conceding that BOTH of you have spotted problems that simultaneously exist
But you are quite correct to point out that there was or even is a woeful state of US catechesis.

I agree. But I disagree that it is the Church’s fault. I disagree that simply because someone disagrees with the curriculum that automatically makes the curriculum bad. After all, the curriculum was presumably put together by faithful Catholics who want to pass on the Faith. What makes your opinion better than theirs?

This is a non-scientific assumption that I myself make based on my limited experience.

It is basically a mere opinion.

One thing I know. I wasn’t catechized by myself. I fell away, but the majority of my classmates did not. That tells me that it was not the Catechists nor the materials at fault for my lack of catechesis. It was mine.

I look at the people who were catechized during the era of supposedly poor materials. Yet, the majority of the people who went through that catechesis, remained Catholic.

So, that indicates that it is not the materials which were at fault.

So, what is? I don’t know. But I know it’s not a simple answer.

Yet it is true theologically that no one will necessarily come to faith even if they are met with wonderful explanations of doctrine; and thus we can likewise assume that resistance to grace transcends quality of catechesis, as De_Maria seems to assume.

What else explains the existence of the traitor, Judas?

TL;DR: we sometimes pick one of two sides when both sides have valid points.

Here’s what I think, if anyone believes that Catechesis is poor, then step up and provide your own catechesis. This is the reason that I and my wife homeschooled our children. People say the same thing about public schools. So, we said, “If our children are not properly educated or catechized, we’re not going to sit around and blame anyone else. The buck stops here! They are our children, we will make sure they get the best education we can give them.”

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Here’s what I think, if anyone believes that Catechesis is poor, then step up and provide your own catechesis. This is the reason that I and my wife homeschooled our children. People say the same thing about public schools. So, we said, “If our children are not properly educated or catechized, we’re not going to sit around and blame anyone else. The buck stops here! They are our children, we will make sure they get the best education we can give them.”

Given that I wrote a marketing program to help a parish get on board with “Whole Community” which educates the parents as well as the children using much more theologically sound materials…and the parish is now using them and thriving…I have done my part.

The parish is now a sample parish and “Whole Community” catechetics are taking a stronghold in our greater community over CCD and silly coloring book options.

 

[pianistclare]

Sure. We have to memorize plenty fo things. But that is for surface learning.
A person who memorizes his multiplication tables doesn’t necessarily know higher math. It’s a tool, YES. But not a means to an end by itself.

 

[pianistclare]

Right. More and more parishes are going to Family Catechesis. Whole families have to be on board, willing to spend time on it, and DRE’s need to have great content for them.
That’s why no one calls it CCD anymore. There’s little “doctrine” being taught.

 

[De_Maria]

Given that I wrote a marketing program to help a parish get on board with “Whole Community” which educates the parents as well as the children using much more theologically sound materials…and the parish is now using them and thriving…I have done my part.

Good job. I hope you’re right about the quality of your product. Make sure to stay in touch with your customers and find out how they feel about it.

The parish is now a sample parish and “Whole Community” catechetics are taking a stronghold in our greater community over CCD and silly coloring book options.

I suggest you be careful about your pride. Remember, God can work through any instrument, whether you consider it silly or not. And, more importantly,

Matthew 23:12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

Pride, ego, and hurt feelings. I was once engaged by a person that claimed that he was never taught about Christ and the Holy Trinity… it seems that the years he spent doing the Sign of the Cross he was pronouncing something other than, 'In the Name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." It also seems that he attended a parish where there was no Mass and where no one read the Sacred Scriptures…

…then there was the guy (on this site) that professed to both be forced to become Catholic and not taught anything about God–so he hated the Church and his parents for forcing him into the Catholic Church which his parents did not even bothered to attend… yeah… quite amusing!

The fact is that many who leave the Church do so because they want a “religion” where their personal views are the dogma.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

Given that I wrote a marketing program to help a parish get on board with “Whole Community” which educates the parents as well as the children using much more theologically sound materials…and the parish is now using them and thriving…I have done my part.

Good job. I hope you’re right about the quality of your product. Make sure to stay in touch with your customers and find out how they feel about it.

The parish is now a sample parish and “Whole Community” catechetics are taking a stronghold in our greater community over CCD and silly coloring book options.

I suggest you be careful about your pride. Remember, God can work through any instrument, whether you consider it silly or not. And, more importantly,

Matthew 23:12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

It was a project for my Masters, so while I chat with the priest every now and then, but since I am not located near them, I have little ability to check in more than that.

And I’m sorry. I will never think much of the poor excuse for a book that publishers find acceptable as catechetical material today. It’s not hubris, its righteous anger. That someone can feel it is appropriate to provide children with only this as their Catholic education disgusts me. It especially bothers me with 2nd graders who are, like me, not learning that they are receiving Jesus, but simply a nice gift from Him.

 

[JimG]

I was taught from the Baltimore Catechism and I learned nothing. All I did was stare out the window. So, the Baltimore Catechism is not a magic bullet.

Nope. Not a magic bullet. But it’s better than making banners.

One year I was teaching CCD/PSR and the administration gave the teachers some sample religion text series in consideration for the next year. I wrote brief reviews of all of them. Only one had solid catechesis. One was pure fluff. Sure enough, they selected the fluff.

 

[De_Maria]

…It especially bothers me with 2nd graders who are, like me, not learning that they are receiving Jesus, but simply a nice gift from Him.

2nd graders? My experience with 2nd graders is in soccer. I remember that I put one child in as goaley. I went to instruct the rest of the team. When the other team kicked the ball towards our goal, there was no goaley???!!! He was on the swings.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

…It especially bothers me with 2nd graders who are, like me, not learning that they are receiving Jesus, but simply a nice gift from Him.

2nd graders? My experience with 2nd graders is in soccer. I remember that I put one child in as goaley. I went to instruct the rest of the team. When the other team kicked the ball towards our goal, there was no goaley???!!! He was on the swings.

So we should not educate them that the Eucharist they are receiving is Jesus? You have no issues with telling them it’s simply a special gift?

Yes, second graders are still small children who leave much to be desired in their impulse control skills. However, we should not insult their intelligence by providing them with anything less than the truth. The Catholic church moved First Communion from the age of 14 to the age of 7 because, though the intercession of many saints, including Blessed Imelda, that children were VERY capable of understanding that they were receiving Jesus.