I like this forum because it is what I learned in 4th grade

[De_Maria]

HAha my priest growing up was famous for his “Mc Donald homilies” in which he’d declare it was too hot, too cold or too whatever say the common McDonald advertizing phrase “Have you had your break today”…it was at the time, then tell us all to have a relaxing Sunday and continue with Mass.

Then you have someone else to blame other than yourself.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

And so do the 2,000 families and many more children who made up my parish alone. And from my experiences in other parishes, this is not really behavior out of the ordinary.

 

[De_Maria]

My grandparents got fluff in the 60’s. My parents got fluff. My friends knew no more than I did…and we even were weekly Mass attendants. We had an old protestant bible in the house–that was it.

Individual my arse. We have a multigenerational problem that you refuse to acknowledge that at its core began when true catechetics ended.

So, are you also blaming your parents and grandparents? Or did they teach you to blame everyone else for their lack of knowledge?

 

[De_Maria]

I hope someone in the 2000 families was interested enough and loved it enough, to teach themselves a bit of the Faith.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

My grandparents got fluff in the 60’s. My parents got fluff. My friends knew no more than I did…and we even were weekly Mass attendants. We had an old protestant bible in the house–that was it.

Individual my arse. We have a multigenerational problem that you refuse to acknowledge that at its core began when true catechetics ended.

So, are you also blaming your parents and grandparents? Or did they teach you to blame everyone else for their lack of knowledge?

Wow, you really want to blame the individual, don’t you? You have no insight into what occurs (or lack of what occurs at the parish level).

It would humble you very much to read the CARA studies. If you have $55, I would encourage you to go to the Georgetown website and purchase yourself a membership so you can break your misconceptions.

Parents cannot teach their children what they, themselves do not know. When my grandparents were young their school threw out all the Baltimore Catechism and they were told that it was no longer needed. Yet, they still had imparted the “don’t question the church” from earlier in their youth. So they didn’t. That they were in the new Catholic church. When they had children they passed on that message. When their children had children (me and my contemporaries) we also were given that message. HOPE! LOVE! PEACE! Jesus is my buddy! No doctrine, no real teachings, none of that. My grandparents passed down what they knew. My parents passed on what they knew…and what I got was that a Catholic needs to go to Mass. Not once was Adoration ever mentioned, not once did I hear about doctors of the church. Sure, I knew about saints–but only the socially acceptable ones like St. Patrick and St. Francis.

You still continue to have this idea that if one just REEEEEEEEEEEALLLY tried and REEEEEALLLY loved God that one could just hop skippidy jump and dive right into the Catholic faith. It wasn’t like that at all. Now, with the internet, it is very different because one can find materials at all levels, but it wasn’t so in the 90’s.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, De Maria!

When I came to the US I did not speak English… though I was a wiz at math (I was placed back in 4th grade because of age and lack of language skill) I could not communicate past a couple of bilingual kids in my classroom. No matter how much I learn about any subject, till I have the capacity, I will never forget my first teacher’s efforts to assist me in learning… while in summer school, she brought the experience to the lowest level… building up both my vocabulary and my confidence.

There are great points being made on both sides… the marriage is accepting the fact that we cannot wait till children are at the “age of reason” to expose them to the solidity of the Faith, and we cannot assume that parents are familiar/knowledgeable enough and concerned enough with the Faith that they will instruct the future generations (don’t forget the absentee God-parents–they used to be part of the Catholic upbringing of our children; today, they are concerned with the aesthetics, videos, and uploads of the Christening… all the externals).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Mary!

…it is a combination of both; sadly, parents believe the old ‘do what I say rule’ still applies; the Church still thinks that all Catholics are devout Believers as them yesterdays… both drop the ball when it comes to living out the Faith (pass down to next generation)…

There was an old song that stated, ‘nothing from nothing leaves nothing,’ well when we have poorly catechized parents (parents who don’t live the Faith) we will gain children who leave the Faith by default (grass always greener on the other side).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Tis_Bearself]

For what it’s worth, I was taught mostly by mom (school religion classes in the 70s were useless picture book fluff that made the posted modern CCD books in this thread look like a Baltimore catechism) and I also read a lot as a child because I was a very advanced reader and liked to read.
I learned about Jesus, the prayers, what Catholics do, etc. primarily from my mother. I liked children’s books about Jesus, the Bible and the saints and read many of them. Some of the saint books with martyrs were taken away from me by my mom for being too gory. For first communion I got a kid’s missalette that did a decent job in words and pictures of explaining the basics of what was happening at Mass.

We did use Baltimore Catechism at my Catholic school in about grades 4 to 7. I got very little out of it because my mom had already taught me most of that stuff and the format was boring.

I think the most important thing is to see your parents every day praying and living their faith. Mom took me to Mass, to rosaries (or we said them at home), to novenas, to May crownings, to adoration. Whatever Catholic thing she did, she took me. Dad prayed a rosary every evening after reading the paper and he said prayers out loud in his room before bed and I could hear him pray. Every Sunday we went to Mass as a family, no ifs ands or buts. When you get a sense that it is your heritage and that your great-grands, grands and even parents were persecuted to some degree for their faith, you become very committed to it or at least I did. Without that kind of example, I doubt that one teaching book or another would have made a difference to me as a child.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, De Maria!

I can tell you stories… some may have been related to racism or just as you’ve mentioned no interest in children in the Church…

I’ll give two:

One day I walked to the main entrance of the Church to bring back a mom and her children and to sit them in the area designated for carriages–I made sure that she understood that she and her children were welcomed in the House of God.

One other day I promised a child a sticker (there were some ladies passing them out for the rowdy crowd and his was taken by his sister); the child spent the rest of the Mass quiet… at the end I got a whole sheet of stickers… he chose only three!

Children are far more adaptive than we give them credit for; parents usually fall prey because they are familiars and sometimes overly accommodating–they also ill-prepare their children thinking them too young to understand (a child in the front pew, after watching me, attempted to do the sign of the cross… he was so proud when I took notice of his efforts… the mom? …far removed from her obligations to bring the child into the Fold); though you are correct about my lack of parental experience, you forget that we need not experience everything firsthand in order to know/understand the experience.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

jcrichton:

Hi!

…as is the practice of bringing children to Mass with loads of food, water, games, toys, and electronic gadgets!

…training children to see the Mass as a place of entertainment and tantrums seldomly transfers to awareness of God–the building is only as strong as its base (cornerstone).

Maran atha!

Angel

Spoken like a person who has never raised children. A person who has never felt the angry stares of the Parishioners when the child squirms and touches someone or someone’s things by accident. A person who has never had to rush out of Church because the baby won’t stop crying.

I suggest you walk in someone else’s shoes before you start spouting simplistic solutions.

So now giving your children toys, food and games is required for good behavior?

Umm no.

Sometimes a parent has to leave. One should not require stares from parishoners to take a screaming child out.

At the same time, parishioners can do much more to show mercy to parents. But unless a child is otherwise handicapped they can do without food and water and electronics for an hour, even at a young age. IE toddlers.

 

[De_Maria]

Wow, you really want to blame the individual, don’t you?

I believe the brunt of the responsibility falls on the individual, yes.

You have no insight into what occurs (or lack of what occurs at the parish level).

I think I have some.

Parents cannot teach their children what they, themselves do not know.

But parents who care, will take the time to learn and then pass on what they know.

When my grandparents were young their school threw out all the Baltimore Catechism and they were told that it was no longer needed.

We didn’t have a copy. But many of our neighbors, did. Plus, I remember that my grandmother had all sorts of leaflets which she took with her everywhere.

Yet, they still had imparted the “don’t question the church” from earlier in their youth. So they didn’t…My parents passed on what they knew…and what I got was that a Catholic needs to go to Mass.

That’s interesting. Because the Novus Ordu Mass is in the vernacular. I know that I didn’t understand the Latin. But for the past 50 or so years, the Mass in the US has been in English. And the first part is the Readings and the Homily. Out of which many people can get a great deal of learning, if they are paying attention.

Not once was Adoration ever mentioned, not once did I hear about doctors of the church. Sure, I knew about saints–but only the socially acceptable ones like St. Patrick and St. Francis.

Hm? In my neck of the woods, the acceptable Saints are usually the Doctors of the Church. St. Jerome, St. Theresa of Avila, St. John of the Cross, St. Therese Liseaux, St. Augustine, St. Thomas Aquinas.

When I was young, I heard of these people from our friends and neigbors. Did you not have the custom of asking, “Who is your patron saint?”

You still continue to have this idea that if one just REEEEEEEEEEEALLLY tried and REEEEEALLLY loved God that one could just hop skippidy jump and dive right into the Catholic faith.

Yes.

It wasn’t like that at all. Now, with the internet, it is very different because one can find materials at all levels, but it wasn’t so in the 90’s.

Perhaps its the different cultures in which we were raised. I was raised in a Mexican American barrio. Everyone was Catholic. Even if nominally so. But their Catholicism was evident, one way or another, even without trying.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Perhaps its the different cultures in which we were raised. I was raised in a Mexican American barrio. Everyone was Catholic. Even if nominally so. But their Catholicism was evident, one way or another, even without trying.

Your experience skews your view tremendously. I never experienced such a “Catholic bubble” not growing up, nor anywhere I traveled.

Very few of my neighbors were Catholic. Even fewer knew much. My mother has a very “Secular” name, as do I. If you look at my baptismal certificate where a saint should be named (There’s a blank) one is not. She did not know that one is to be given a patron saint. I did not have one until I was confirmed, at which time I was told that I “must” take the patron of my godparent. Not sure how that misconception occurred.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, Tis!

You benefited from what is becoming more and more the exception to the rule: an actual Catholic Faith upbringing by a devout Catholic, in a Catholic family.

This is what has been changing in the world’s societies.

Reverence for God and the Church is seen as an aberration–its the new “virginity” thing in social ethics.

I am glad your upbringing was so good. I pray that you pass this along to your children and your children’s children.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

I fully concur with you!

Maran atha!

 

[De_Maria]

So now giving your children toys, food and games is required for good behavior?
Umm no.

1. Who said they were required?
2. Thanks be to God, we raised four faithful Catholics and we provided toys, food and games until they were old enough to do without.

Sometimes a parent has to leave. One should not require stares from parishoners to take a screaming child out.

I don’t think it is humanly possible to move fast enough to avoid stares when a child begins to cry during the Mass. But if you think you can do it, go ahead.

At the same time, parishioners can do much more to show mercy to parents. But unless a child is otherwise handicapped they can do without food and water and electronics for an hour, even at a young age. IE toddlers.

You can try that if you want. We took the easy route and provided the things our children needed to be happy during the Mass. Thanks be to God, it worked.

 

[jcrichton]

Perhaps its the different cultures in which we were raised. I was raised in a Mexican American barrio. Everyone was Catholic. Even if nominally so. But their Catholicism was evident, one way or another, even without trying.

Hi, De Maria!

This is exactly it!

This is what is missing from the Faith!

Sadly, the cultures around the world continue to “modernize” removing God and the Church from their ethos.

The Church in her part remains a jump a hop away from the changing times. This works in situations such as yours (or mine–Mom was my Catechist, she homeschooled me, in the Faith as well, till age seven so by the time I went to Catholic school I was tested for the second grade, did third on that summer, and fourth and fifth the following year).

Sadly, people are embracing the world rather than God and the Church so such community/home upbringing continue to become a thing of the past.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

1. Who said they were required?
2. Thanks be to God, we raised four faithful Catholics and we provided toys, food and games until they were old enough to do without.

-food and drink? Old enough to do without once they stop nursing/bottle feeding (again, unless a medical condition)
-electronics? Never, unless it is a communication device
-toys? small, quiet and for toddlers, again unless a preschool or up child has a deficiency that renders them on the level of a younger child

Not for me to judge, but I would never advise a parent to allow such things.

I don’t think it is humanly possible to move fast enough to avoid stares when a child begins to cry during the Mass. But if you think you can do it, go ahead.

I manage it fine, thank you very much. The parishioners where I’ve attended understand that children cry. They do not like continued hollers and screams. One can easily move with prudence.

You can try that if you want. We took the easy route and provided the things our children needed to be happy during the Mass. Thanks be to God, it worked.

This is a cheap shot. It works well for me, and for many of the Catholic families that I know. My friends have faithful adults, teenagers and young people. They all were happy during mass without a gameboy and koolaid.

 

[JimG]

Jim, it was “fluff” in your opinion. Apparently, other well meaning and faithful people didn’t like your selection. What makes your opinion better than theirs?

The material was not well organized, did not teach the basic truths of the Faith, and the overall effect was one of confusion rather than clarity. It was fluff. Sometimes fluff is in vogue.

That was some years ago. Our catechetical materials have since improved, although I am no longer involved.

 

[De_Maria]

Hi, De Maria!

…the hole in the wall is that parents are not educated nor devout; as time has transgressed Catholicism has become more of a social/family tradition than Faith.

I don’t know everyone personally, so I can’t make such sweeping generalizations. However, that I do know, seem better informed than ever.

If parents don’t know their Faith how can they teach their children?

I didn’t know my faith when my children were born. But by the time they were ready for first communion, I had educated myself.

If parents don’t live their Faith how can they be surprised that their children/grandchildren leave the Church as soon as society’s rewards outweigh the security of what they have understood as Faith?

They shouldn’t be. But they shouldn’t blame the Church, either.

This is where we stand–and don’t forget about all those other issues that are presently hounding the Church!

The Catholic Church is protected by the Holy Spirit and has been around for 2000 years. I don’t worry too much about the Catholic Church.

I do wish though, that individuals would buck up and take responsibility for their own actions. That is what the Church Teaches. Personal responsibility.

 

[De_Maria]

The Church in her part remains a jump a hop away from the changing times. This works in situations such as yours (or mine–Mom was my Catechist, she homeschooled me, in the Faith as well, till age seven so by the time I went to Catholic school I was tested for the second grade, did third on that summer, and fourth and fifth the following year).

Yeah! Homeschoolers are going to save the world!