I like this forum because it is what I learned in 4th grade

[De_Maria]

Your experience skews your view tremendously. …

I think yours skews yours more than mine. I’ve traveled all over Texas, Louisiana, Missouri, Arkansas, Illinois, Kansas and the West Coast. I’ve never been anywhere that I couldn’t find a Catholic Church and therefore, Catholics.

As I understand it, the Catholic Church can be found all over the world. If this is true, then you or your family were not seeking Catholic company.

Finally, most things in life boil down to personal responsibility. Selecting the friends that you spend time with, selecting what you want to learn and what you want to do. In all the time that you did not learn Catholicism, I bet that you took the time to enlighten your mind about other things which actually interested you.

THAT’S the point I’m making.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Xanthippe_Voorhees:

Your experience skews your view tremendously. …

I think yours skews yours more than mine. I’ve traveled all over Texas, Louisiana, Missouri, Arkansas, Illinois, Kansas and the West Coast. I’ve never been anywhere that I couldn’t find a Catholic Church and therefore, Catholics.

As I understand it, the Catholic Church can be found all over the world. If this is true, then you or your family were not seeking Catholic company.

Finally, most things in life boil down to personal responsibility. Selecting the friends that you spend time with, selecting what you want to learn and what you want to do. In all the time that you did not learn Catholicism, I bet that you took the time to enlighten your mind about other things which actually interested you.

THAT’S the point I’m making.

Yeah because people can so select their neighbors. No, your view is a very nieve and sheltered one. Again, spend the $55 bucks and go read the CARA studies. I think that it would take the wind out of your sails a bit.

 

[De_Maria]

This is a cheap shot. It works well for me, and for many of the Catholic families that I know.

Why is telling you “You can try that if you want”, a cheap shot?

My friends have faithful adults, teenagers and young people. They all were happy during mass without a gameboy and koolaid.

I’m happy for you. Our method also worked. So, there’s more than one way to skin a cat.

 

[De_Maria]

The material was not well organized, did not teach the basic truths of the Faith, and the overall effect was one of confusion rather than clarity. It was fluff. Sometimes fluff is in vogue.

That was some years ago. Our catechetical materials have since improved, although I am no longer involved.

You didn’t answer my question.

Jim, it was “fluff” in your opinion. Apparently, other well meaning and faithful people didn’t like your selection. What makes your opinion better than theirs?

 

[jcrichton]

I don’t know everyone personally, so I can’t make such sweeping generalizations. However, that I do know, seem better informed than ever.

Hi, De Maria!

I am speaking to what seems to be held by the various consensus (“Catholics” leaving the Church; non-Catholics converting “Catholics;” “Catholics” becoming atheists/agnostics; US “Catholics” embracing divorce, contraception, adultery, abortion, homosexuality… in the name of social justice and correctness…); when these studied/surveyed Catholics are queried they either don’t know much about the Faith or have months to years lapses of even attending Mass.

Ever witness “fans” defending their “team”/“artist?” These fans would even fight each other in defense of the object of their “affection.” Most importantly, they know the stats, their history, their achievements… and yes, even their failures and ineptness…

Recently I read a small article about some artist who 20 years ago claimed some song… it was discovered that someone else wrote (or some other argument) and twenty years later that person falls in disgrace because that person’s fans feel (twenty years to the making) cheated for what happened or did not happened twenty years removed… these “fans” live their infatuation daily and they trace it back to their first experience… that’s devotion; that’s what is lacking in the Faith Trek.

I applaud you for your determination to educate yourself in the Faith; sadly, most people are like cattle and water… they chose the easiest path!

…and while both parties are at fault, the Church has the greater portion of responsibility to promote the Faith and to Educate her children.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi, De Maria!

Exactly right!

That’s the role that the Church has to take. She must school the homeschoolers!

Relying on what society believed and did in the past is not enough.

Do you recall, as a child, hearing that the Catholic home was the domestic Church?

This was inculcated in my Mom!

She made sure that I learned to read and write… but she also made sure that I learned about the Catholic Faith.

When the ladies on my street and in the grocery store near to my house attempted to invite me to their non-Catholic churches I was able (ages 5 through 7) to hold my own: ‘Christ is found in the Catholic Church; the Catholic Church is his Church.’

There are kids in their preteens and teens that are unaware that there’s a difference between being Catholic and being non-Catholic… there are adults who while claiming to being “Catholics” do not see a problem with non-Catholics coming to a Catholic Church and Receiving the Eucharist… sure they surmise that there’s some difference… but they believe that it is uncharitable to keep them from the Breaking of the Bread–these are adults who have been in the Catholic Church all of their lives!

It was once coined that the path to hell is paved with good intentions… I believe that “sensibilities,” “human justice and charity,” and “correctness” are the new paving instruments.

I concur with you that each individual person is ultimately responsible for his/her own choices (deeds and omissions), but the Church must take greater responsibility in facilitating the education of her children (adults and minors).

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Finally, most things in life boil down to personal responsibility. Selecting the friends that you spend time with, selecting what you want to learn and what you want to do. In all the time that you did not learn Catholicism, I bet that you took the time to enlighten your mind about other things which actually interested you.

THAT’S the point I’m making.

Hi, De Maria!

I fully concur with this thought!

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

Could you not post some excerpts?

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[JimG]

Jim, it was “fluff” in your opinion. Apparently, other well meaning and faithful people didn’t like your selection. What makes your opinion better than theirs?

I don’t know who had what opinion or how the final text selection was made. I only know the opinion that I expressed in my own review of the texts. And I know that the text ultimately decided upon that year was the fluffiest and least doctrinal of those available.

Sometimes fluff is just in vogue. There is no accounting for taste.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

That’s a tricky question. I could black out and upload a PDF of the report from the parish I worked with if I found the data. However, CARA very clearly has all sorts of information on their website and it’s behind a paywall–so I’m not sure that posting it would be allowed. I was given the data for my Master’s project, but I do think the pastor and parish commission was told not to copy or distribute the aggregate data to the parish at large, except in small quantities.

 

[jcrichton]

Hi!

That’s exactly what I meant… one simple quote demonstrating the numbers (ie; “x” number of those surveyed or whatever are found to have elementary understanding of “y” and believe that “z” is just as acceptable–or something to that effect); it is important to be able to share some of that information because not everyone (myself included) has the money to purchase books and/or keys/access.

I can speak about my personal experience but that’s very limiting and can be dismissed as biased (my personal understanding/interpretation) or inconsequential (too narrow of scope).

I know from my personal experience that some “Catholics” believe that there’s nothing wrong with homosexuality and that the Church will one day Bless homosexual unions… of course these people are both from the rank and file and from “dedicated” and “devout” servers in their respective Catholic parishes.

Basically these people believe that once the numbers are high enough the Church’s Doctrinal Teaching will change–we have seen this happen with contraception, adultery, abortion, divorce and fornication… they believe that they can circumvent the Churches Teachings and that once the numbers are so high the Church will change her Teachings… but I do not have the numbers nor the means to produce them.

Maran atha!

Angel

 

[De_Maria]

…and while both parties are at fault, the Church has the greater portion of responsibility to promote the Faith and to Educate her children.

What would you have the Church do, force the faith down people’s throats? Hang a few rebels to make an example?

I personally think the Church is doing more than enough. Just offering the Sacraments is more than enough. People who love Christ should be coming to the Sacraments in droves. If they don’t, its not the Church’s fault.

 

[De_Maria]

De_Maria:

Jim, it was “fluff” in your opinion. Apparently, other well meaning and faithful people didn’t like your selection. What makes your opinion better than theirs?

I don’t know who had what opinion or how the final text selection was made. I only know the opinion that I expressed in my own review of the texts. And I know that the text ultimately decided upon that year was the fluffiest and least doctrinal of those available.

Sometimes fluff is just in vogue. There is no accounting for taste.

Calling something “fluff” doesn’t make it false.
Saying that it is in “vogue” doesn’t make it false, either.

My question is, why is your opinion better than theirs? Just because you say so? Are you the only one who’s opinion matters in this question?

 

[De_Maria]

Yeah because people can so select their neighbors.

They can’t? That’s news to me. We selected our neighbors. My wife and I consciously chose t buy a house near a Catholic Church and near some other homeschooling families.

Do you mean that it never occurred to you that you could do the same? Or is there some law in your area which says that you can’t live near your friends and family?

No, your view is a very nieve and sheltered one. Again, spend the $55 bucks and go read the CARA studies. I think that it would take the wind out of your sails a bit.

This discussion is not about CARA. Its about people needing to take personal responsibility for the consequences in their lives.

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

They can’t? That’s news to me. We selected our neighbors. My wife and I consciously chose t buy a house near a Catholic Church and near some other homeschooling families.

Do you mean that it never occurred to you that you could do the same? Or is there some law in your area which says that you can’t live near your friends and family?

Your proposition is ludicrous giving the state of housing. Should I be blessed to find a good neighborhood, there is nothing to stop others from moving in. I had a good friend who was surrounded by Catholic neighbors…but in less than 5 years all had gone.

Also, many people don’t even live in neighborhoods. A good majority of non-city dwellers live in rural areas…and one can harldy “pick one’s neighbors” in that case.

This discussion is not about CARA. Its about people needing to take personal responsibility for the consequences in their lives.

That data would help you stop your uneducated view of the state of the Church today. If you had any impetus at all to think beyond yourself, you’d try to find an objective source that could provide you with that data. Instead, you choose to live in your fantasy land. Great for you. Not reality for the rest of us.

 

[De_Maria]

Your proposition is ludicrous giving the state of housing.

It worked for us.

Should I be blessed to find a good neighborhood, there is nothing to stop others from moving in. I had a good friend who was surrounded by Catholic neighbors…but in less than 5 years all had gone.

Can’t say you’re wrong there. After 17 years, our homeschooling neighbors did move. But by then, our children were grown.

However, the Church is still there. And most of our Catholic friends who moved here to be close it are still here.

Also, many people don’t even live in neighborhoods. A good majority of non-city dwellers live in rural areas…and one can harldy “pick one’s neighbors” in that case.

Lol! Apparently everyone is helpless to do anything that they want in your neck of the woods.

That data would help you stop your uneducated view of the state of the Church today.

It hasn’t helped your unrealistic view of what one can and can not do. It hasn’t helped you to stop blaming everyone else for what you don’t know. I’d rather have my view, uneducated or not, then yours.

If you had any impetus at all to think beyond yourself, you’d try to find an objective source that could provide you with that data. Instead, you choose to live in your fantasy land. Great for you. Not reality for the rest of us.

Its reality for almost everyone else. It is you who choose to live in the fantasy of “its your fault, not mine.”

 

[Xanthippe_Voorhees]

Its reality for almost everyone else. It is you who choose to live in the fantasy of “its your fault, not mine.”

Hardly. America is NOT a Catholic nation. Cherry-picking a “Catholic” neighborhood is not a possibility for most.

What am I supposed to do–move across the country to Ava Maria Florida or some place in DC or Arizona where I can find one?

It isn’t going to happen.

Understanding what the church faces today is realistic. Your refusal to do so is simply you not wanting to be challenged in your beliefs that there’s more going on than ‘personal responsibility.’

Keep living in your bubble. I’m glad you have yet to face the reality that most of us do. It’s endearing in a sad way.

 

[De_Maria]

Hardly. America is NOT a Catholic nation.

The largest Christian denomination in the United States, is Catholic.

Cherry-picking a “Catholic” neighborhood is not a possibility for most.

So say you. But I’ve worked in many states and I’ve never been more than 15 minutes away from a Catholic Church in any big city. The only time I’ve been farther than that has been when I’ve worked in rural areas and even there, I can’t remember being more than a half hour away.

So, I sincerely doubt your claim.

What am I supposed to do–move across the country to Ava Maria Florida or some place in DC or Arizona where I can find one?

It isn’t going to happen.

You live in a city where there are no Catholic Churches? Why would a good Catholic choose to do something like that?

Understanding what the church faces today is realistic. Your refusal to do so is simply you not wanting to be challenged in your beliefs that there’s more going on than ‘personal responsibility.’

On the contrary, it seems more like, you simply don’t want to accept the fact that you have placed very little emphasis on being Catholic in your life. Otherwise, why would you find yourself in a situation where there are no Catholic Churches in your area? Did you not make that part of your criteria for finding a home?

Keep living in your bubble. I’m glad you have yet to face the reality that most of us do. It’s endearing in a sad way.

We are very happy. I feel sorry for you, that you can’t accept the fact that you have more control over your life than you are admitting here. You seem to consider yourself a victim of every circumstance that you can dream of.

You didn’t educate yourself, so you blame those who tried to educate you.
You don’t live near a Church, but you don’t blame yourself for not making the proximity of a Catholic Church a criteria for your search.

 

[JimG]

Calling something “fluff” doesn’t make it false.

Saying that it is in “vogue” doesn’t make it false, either.

My question is, why is your opinion better than theirs? Just because you say so? Are you the only one who’s opinion matters in this question?

Everyone can have an opinion. The teachers were asked to provide an evaluation of proposed texts, and I did so. I wasn’t asked to evaluate anyone else’s opinion. If the selected text enabled the program to form well educated Catholic students, good. Although—my opinion!—if it did, it would have been in spite of the text rather than because of it.

 

[De_Maria]

Everyone can have an opinion.

No doubt.

The teachers were asked to provide an evaluation of proposed texts, and I did so. I wasn’t asked to evaluate anyone else’s opinion. If the selected text enabled the program to, form well educated Catholic students, good. Although—my opinion!—if it did, it would have been in spite of the text rather than because of it.

I understand. But my question was meant to illicit the following admission. Your opinion carried no more weight than the other faithful Catholics who were asked to evaluate the program. That is why you weren’t asked to evaluate their opinions. And that is why your opinion did not invalidate anyone else’s.

In other words, you’re venting because you don’t like their selection, and there’s nothing wrong with that, but that doesn’t mean that you are right. It just means you’re upset.